Talk:History of the Jews in Hungary

Needs updating into 20th and 21st centuries

I am wikifying this article, but it stops at the end of the 19th century, because the source (the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia) stops there. If anyone can provide information from the 1880s to today it would be appreciated. I am particularly concerned that a few paragraphs on the Holocaust in Hungary be put in the article. FeanorStar7

I have inserted a brief account of the Holocaust in Hungary. I do think that this subject merits an article of its own, by virtue of its magnitude as well as its unique aspects. When I have more time, I may prepare a more detailed and comprehensive one. 66.108.145.155 07:03, 7 April 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

Samuel Aba

I've heard somewhere that Samuel Aba, the 3rd king of Hungary might have been of Jewish origin. Maybe it can be added as an interesting tidbit. Alensha 22:41, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

Interesting, I hadn't heard this do you have a source? --Goodoldpolonius2 01:19, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

Mostly Hungarian sources. Kristó Gyula & Makk Ferenc: Az Árpád-ház uralkodói ("Rulers from the House of Árpád", p.61.) mentions that the name Samuel was very rare in Hungary, and can mean that he was of Jewish origin. The book is also mentions that Samuel was a leader of the Kabar tribe, which was Jewish. It is certain that he had to convert to Christianity when he married a Hungarian princess, but it was probably only a formality for him, and he didn't care much for Christianity; that's why Stephen I appointed not him but another person, Peter Urseolo as his successor. He was favored by those who opposed Christianity (which was fairly new in Hungary then), and with their support he became king, deposing Peter, who defeated him 3 years later. Alensha 17:15, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

eh, I might as well write his article instead of typing on a talk page :-) Alensha 17:16, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

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Holocaust Memorial Budapest

Regarding this Place: Testimonies from the family Jakobovics in newspapers 1947 in Holland:

http://www.spacetime-sensor.de/wallenberg.htm

I suggest the translation of the Holland newspapers from 1947. Objective: more audience in english. Can You help me translating? Regards Tamas Szabo

dbforum@compuserve.de

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George Mantello

I plan to work on creating a stub or starter article on this person on my next personal "Wikipedia Day," but in the meantime, here's a short list of articles that others could use to add information on this diplomatic figure who is said to have played a key role in starting the international protest against sending Hungarian Jews to Auschwitz:

• El Salvador's Holocaust Hero
• Switzerland Awakens - specifically states that the international outcry began with Mantello
• Jerry P. Shinley Archive: George Mantello and The Politics of Genocide - this site seems to have some info questioning the legitimacy of one of the claims about Mantello
• George Mantello, by Rafael Angel Alfaro Pineda, Vice Minister of Foreign Relations, 1994 - however, note that author represents a country that stands to gain from Mantello being recognized
• Mantello discussed on page 113 - author very critical of the Swiss, specifically claims that "Mantello (NOT the Swiss)" was the source of the international outcry
• German-language article
• Argentinian article, in Spanish, mentions Mantello - I'm working on translating this one
• Hungarian-language article on the Holocaust

Let's check these out and keep extending the 20th-century portion of the article. Lawikitejana 17:24, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

Good Job

I found this entry very objective and well edited!! Good Job!! --Csabap 16:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Naftali Krausz

I'm removing the Krausz section. It may have a place in the article if it was properly rewritten although I personally wouldn't include such a thing. The current version however has many problems: It is unsourced, editorializes (has "POV" problems) and I can only assume has serious [WP:NOR|original research] problems. I am also troubled by the opening line "local Jews also suffer from bad public image created by their own extremists". --JGGardiner 18:04, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I don't like this section

"Some political conservatives and a significant part of the Hungarian population allege these aims are meant to demolish the very foundations of the Hungarian nation, especially by discriminating against the countryside and the religiously pious. The far right alleges that this agenda is part of a secret Jewish domination plan.

Significant Israeli investments in Hungarian industry and financial economy have been made since 1990 and Jewish intellectuals have enjoyed strong media presence, prompting nationalists and anti-globalization fringes to warn that the government is losing control to foreigners."

This is bullshit if you ask me Frigo 06:04, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Than erase it. YOu can delete it, and if it is added again, keap deleting as it is unsourced material and not subject to 3rr. 82.81.175.10 21:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Any chance of adding any sources for this stuff?

Any chances of adding sources? 82.81.175.10 21:55, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Citation tags

Before adding a citation tag to the article, check the Jewish Encyclopedia, most of the information comes from there[1]. Squash Racket (talk) 10:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

phantom casualties of Holocaust

I deleted an absurd paragraph, calculation, and conclusion based on "probable births" in the Holocaust. Having the number of "casualties" include those (new-born) wou "might have been" is a mockery of statistics of a specific event. Any example of any casualty--or any car crash, or any delayed flight, for that matter--could result in any number of events. Then to calculate, and to say, that "what we now have" (the text I deleted), is a figure of x+(a spurious y) gives results that not only are absurd but disavow any coherent discussion. Yes, imagine had 500,000 people lived all the kids they could have had, based on some "natural growth" phenomenon. Some might even have grown up to be President. It must be left at that. Shlishke (talk) 17:07, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

use english first, then hungarian in parens; level of accuracy

1. Please use English first; please use English translations at all in some cases;

1. Level of accuracy --to two places e.g., "Of the immigrants 38.35 per cent came from Moravia, 11.05 per cent from Poland, 11.05..." is kind of silly, even if the cited source said it. I will round it off. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shlishke (talk • contribs) 09:00, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

Unencyclopedic content -- "Keys to the city"

I have deleted this passage referring to the Turkish conquest of Budapest:

I don't know how accurate the story is about Jews handing over the keys to the city, I have never read or heard about that before.

on grounds that it

(1) is personal experience of someone not shown to be an authority -- note the first-person diction

(2) contains weasel words that render it devoid of possible resolution for truth or falsity,

and most of all --

(3) the contention that "Jews handed the keys to Budapest to the Turks" likely has origins in hate speech that might be a fabrication as late as the 20th century.

The canard that the Jews are a fifth column readily serving any hated conqueror that becomes a nemesis of that country in its history is all too frequent. It is a very common charge against Jews, often unfounded or over-simplified with respect to contemporary events.

In view of 20th-century antisemitic causes active in Hungary, especially during the era of Nazi influence and Arrow Cross rule, it is understandable that the claim that "Jews gave the keys to Budapest to the (hated) Turks" could be a recent fabrication as another libel against Jews.

To restore this material one absolutely must have a reliable source, even if one intends to debunk it. A statement that one "has never read anything confirming or denying the story" requires that one be a proven expert in Hungarian history and a specialist in the era in question. That unlikely, then the contention necessitates a written source contemporaneous with the alleged "betrayal" of Budapest or a reference within an unbiased account from a later time. It must show that such "keys" existed, that they gave possession of some critical installation (castle or fortress) and were not simply symbolic (such as the symbolic "keys to the city" that won't unlock so much as a vending machine) often offered to a visiting dignitary, that the person turning the keys over was a Jew, that the turnover of the keys is not an innocent mistake and not under torture, and that the action was not made under some delegation of authority that might have saved Hungarian gentile lives. As a rule, Jews had less to fear from the Turks for opening a palace gate than might a Christian noble or soldier surrendering custody of the edifice.

In any event, "maybe it did and maybe it didn't" or "nobody knows" not only proves nothing -- but says nothing except perhaps to revive a piece of religious bigotry.

Trianon in 1919?

"While popular at first, the so-called Hungarian Soviet Republic fared poorly in almost all of its aims, particularly its efforts to regain territories lost to Slovakia and Romania in the Treaty of Trianon."

The Treaty of Trianon was signed a year later, those territories were merely occupied at that point in history, for one. Secondly, there was no Slovakia to speak of in 1919 either. And thirdly, I dont see why we have to use "so-called" before Hungarian Soviet Republic. --89.133.18.29 (talk) 16:35, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Kudos on Holocaust Account

Two years ago, I originally wrote the first draft of the section on the Holocaust in response to someone's request at the top of this Talk Page. I drafted it as I wrote it, without consulting any reference works, as I've been a student of this period for many years. Well, today, I just took a glance at it and, although my original draft remains the skeleton of today's account, it has been almost completely rewritten and/or changed, with literally hundreds of changes. I would say that virtually every one is an improvement on my original text: Inaccuracies have been corrected, some of my clumsy language has been rendered more felicitously, the narrative flows more smoothly and clearly, and scores of simply flawed phraseology and/or errors have been improved/corrected. It reads so much better, and I just wanted to say kudos to every editor who helped create what is now a much better account. 66.108.110.241 (talk) 18:08, 15 October 2008 (UTC) Allen Roth

Title?

Why was the title of this article changed to Hungarian Jews, from History of the Jews in Hungary? While there is a redirect from the original title, this piece is not about Hungarian Jews--their characteristics, culture, etc. (although such an article would make for a lot of entertaining reading). This article is specifically about their history, and should be reverted to the previous title. Someone, please, carry out this program; I haven't edited in a while, and I wouldn't know where to begin (vote on Talk Page, etc.). This is a confusing error, especially for someone coming to this subject who knows very little about it. 66.108.89.8 (talk) 22:51, 3 February 2010 (UTC) Allen Roth

Hungarian jews

Well some one dose need to start an article on hungarian jews, even just statisticle list of thier populations in preasent countries and a link to this article would be something.--J intela (talk) 12:57, 1 January 2012 (UTC)