Talk:History of the Jews in Poland

Copyright cleanup

The copyright cleanup on this article seems to be done, although further review to ensure that all passages have been adequately revised would certainly be welcome. Thanks to those who pitched in. :) The conversations about copyright concerns have been archived, as they grew very lengthy. They can be found in archives 2 & 3. In archive 3, they have been collapsed to prevent our infringing copyright even in talk space, since duplication from other sources did become cumulatively extensive. I'll mark this one resolved at the copyright problems board. If lingering, undiscovered or incompletely revised material is discovered, please change it directly. If more extensive issues are found, the article can always be blanked again and relisted. Let's hope not. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 16:21, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Ref improve

By the way, I've added a "ref improve" tag to the article. While parts of it are meticulously searched, there are major chunks that do not cite their sources, many of which can be found in talk archive #3. To meet WP:V, some of these sources should be evaluated for reliability and acknowledged more specifically in those uncited sections. --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 16:28, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Thank you Moonriddengirl for all the advises, hard work and time spent here.--Jacurek (talk) 16:32, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

The problem with biased discourses

It is pity to say, but a part of the texts edited by people from oversees about some aspects of Polish history, especially in chapters ‘Growing anti-Semitism’, ‘Fight for independence and Polish Jews’ and other, those about more recent history, is very poor quality. It is biased in proportion, poor evidences, repetitions, interpretations and above all: generalizations. Some theses there are supported by evidences from biased American press (what did they do themselves during holocaust?), and reactions of public opinion that was afraid of their own anti-Semitism or lated felt guilt. I do not know your motivations. Some people’s parents experienced various (usually minor) incidents in schools in Poland, before the war, some of them met bad or just terrified Poles during occupation, others’ parents agreed to help in extermination of their own Jewish brothers or helped in extermination of Poles by Soviets or Germans; some of them felt guilt, because their families spent war in USA and did not react to the holocaust. Finally, some people are ignorant and they support Soviet or Nazi discourse because of lack of education. Do you analyze the history of anti-Semitism in America this way? Can it be called chauvinism or racism? Generally collective memory shaped this way is sometimes not better than that represented by Stalinist or Nazi historians. Good luck in personal growing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.170.4.111 (talk) 08:38, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

"Some theses there are supported by evidences from biased American press (what did they do themselves during holocaust?), and reactions of public opinion that was afraid of their own anti-Semitism or lated felt guilt. "

what american or british newspapers did or did not do during the war is of little relevance to their value as historical sources. Ricardianman (talk) 21:04, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Revenge after the war

I am reading Marek Jan CHodakowski book about Polish-Jewish relation. I thoght about adding some interesting info about post-war revenge on gentiles, by Jews (SOlomon Morel one notable example but there is much, much more). But then, I thought: no one would actually care about the source. No one would care about its credibility. Everyone would just jump on me with allegations of another "blood libel" and antisemitism. Or maybe wikipedia has changed a bit since I was editing it last time? Szopen (talk) 15:06, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Morel was probably rather a Communist, than a Jewish revenge fighter. Chodakowski is "controversial" (like many his opponents, including parts of Gross' books).Xx236 (talk) 09:35, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

What is the connection between this article and articles describing specific periods?

I would rather expect a short synthesis here. Why to keep two instances of the same text in different articles?Xx236 (talk) 09:37, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

This article is very long. I think they were split out with the intention of following summary style, but nobody followed through on it. Thank you, by the way, for your recent additions to the 20th Century history article. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 19:43, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree that the article is too long. Better to summarize and move details content into the existing sub articles. I've also upgraded the sidebar on Jewish Polish History.Ajh1492 (talk) 20:29, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

The article is longr than it was in January 2010.Xx236 (talk) 12:28, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Biggest community in the world, not just Europe

In the intro we have this as 'one of the biggest Jewish communities in Europe', as well as the 'biggest in Europe' and then 'about three-quarters of all Jews lived in Poland' (which would make it the biggest in the world). These are inconsistencies and the facts really point to this for several centuries having been the biggest Jewish community in the world, not just in Europe. Lets establish consensus and then consistency. -Chumchum7 (talk) 09:55, 8 February 2010 (UTC)

The Section on Politics in Polish Territory contains this statement:

"By the end of the nineteenth century, 14% of Polish citizens were Jewish."

Is there any citation for this statement? (There is no inline citation at this point.) That number seems to be an exceptionally large percentage and helps support the 'biggest Jewish community in the world" conclusion. There are not that many communities with large Jewish communities to investigate for this purpose. -- Komowkwa (talk) 00:41, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

There is a question - what was "Poland" by the end of the nineteenth century.Xx236 (talk) 12:32, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

User: Stawiski changes

A diff from the start of your editing reveals that you removed some sources. Please explain.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 01:36, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

• Can you please provide more specifics? To my knowledge, I have not removed any references, just the opposite. I rescued from oblivion countless references using Internet Archive and added many new ones via Google Books. I also moved some paragraphs around for progression and clarity of meaning, so if you're unsure where the selected old references are please use "Edit > Find on this Page" or equivalent feature of your browser. This is where a second set of eyes could come in handy. Cheers. — Stawiski (talk) 02:49, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Is this ref in the current version:

István Deák, Jan Tomasz Gross, Tony Judt. The Politics of Retribution in Europe. Princeton University Press, 2000.

--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 02:52, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

• Yes the ref is still there. You can find it under # 114. linked from section The Holocaust: German-occupied Poland, preformatted as <ref name=Gross1>István Deák, Jan Tomasz Gross, Tony Judt. [http://books.google.com/books?id=s82F2H0FEHQC&pg=PA25 The Politics of Retribution in Europe.] Princeton University Press, 2000.</ref> Thanks. — Stawiski (talk) 03:12, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

okay thanks. unless someone else does it first, the changes will have to be confirmed as neutrally acceptable. There unfortunatly has been some nationalistic whitewashing in the past at these article.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 03:19, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Section on interwar period is biased

It seems designed to minimize the reality of anti-semitism, and to falsely blame the increase in antisemitism on Jewish 'reversal of assimilation'. To the extent the latter happened, it was a response to antisemitism.

There is also confusion between assimilation and acculturation. Regarding the language question - according to Mendelsohn, there was steady growth in the use of the Polish language by Jews throughout the interwar period, and corresponding decrease in the use of Yiddish. The increase in "non polish speakers" in the census, was, IIRC, due to the Zionist campaign to have Jews claim Hebrew as their mother tongue, to show Zionist affiliation. Most of those who did so were Polish speakers - certainly NONE had Hebrew as a mother tongue!! They thus were and continued to be acculturated. They may have not been assimilated - in that they did not identify as Poles by nationality - but then they mostly did not do so earlier either.

In any case, there was significant antisemitism in the Polish state and society before the 1931 census. Even after the Pilsudski coup.

I will wait till I have access to my copy of Mendelsohn, with the citations, before I edit this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ricardianman (talk • contribs) 16:56, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Similar problem with section on Russian Empire (1795–1918)

There's evidence of significant anti-Polish sentiment among some Jewish communities on Polish territories before Poland's return to independence, apparently missing in this article. For example, the book by Jewish writer Bernard Singer from Warsaw, called Moje Nalewki (1959; 2nd ed., 1993, ISBN 83-07-02338-6), quoted also in a book by Krzysztof Lewalski (Kościoły chrześcijańskie, 2002, ISBN 8322921950), mentioned Hassidic students "spitting at the sound of Polish language". This was coupled with the corresponding attitude of some Talmudic teachers proclaiming in public that speaking Polish was detrimental to one's religious practices.[1] [2] [3] — Stawiski (talk) 21:48, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

=that was almost certainly applied equally to ALL "gentile" languages, AND to Hebrew as well - anything other than Yiddish. It hardly represents a specifically anti-Polish attitude. ESPECIALLY if the citation (which I CANNOT read, I am an American and this is an English language wikipedia article) refers to incidents that occured at a time and place when Polish was not the language of state where those Jews resided. Does a Jew speaking Polish in Lvov in 1925 indicate an anti-ukrainian attitude? Does a Jew speaking Polish (or, for that matter, Yiddish) in Vilna/Wilno/Vilnius in 1925 indicate an anti-lithuanian attitude? Your very comment is an example of just the kind of misleading, out of context citation that mars this article, I am sorry to have to say. Ricardianman (talk) 20:57, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

To expand - its not an anti-Polish attitude, its an antiassimilationist, antimodernist attitude. During the period of the inter war Polish Republic, it was A. On the decline and B. directed heavily against secular Jewish nationalists, of both the Zionist and Bundist/folkist (secular Yiddishist) varieties. Again, there is much in Mendelsohn on this, but I do not now have the source handy. Ricardianman (talk) 21:00, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

Cut & paste from mainspace

"In the mid-nineteenth century, the Polish Kingdom was established in dozens of Jewish agricultural colonies of various types of land ownership. According to official data, in 1848 in the Polish Kingdom the number of Jews involved in the cultivation of the soil amounted to 30,795 persons. In the years 1844-1950 there were more than 56 Jewish colonies, with a total capacity of about 570 farms. In subsequent years, the number of colonies has grown rapidly, and most of them survived until World War II."

"From the data compiled on the basis of population census conducted in 1931 shows that in Poland, lived with the work on the role of 135 thousand. Jews. More than 98 thousand. People in this group was included in the economically active, which in terms of indicator accounted for about 75%. This was an extremely high rate of economically active in the general population in this group. A large number of Jews in general, farms in Galicia, had its beginnings in the early years of the nineteenth century. As is known, the area to the First World War were under Austrian rule, where the case for Jewish rights, including the right to settle on the land, are preferably resolved than elsewhere."

"Jews in interwar Poland, formed the most numerous non-Christian religious association, organized in 818 municipalities of the religious clerics who are about 1600 full time municipalities. The first exclusively on normative grounds of the former Kingdom of Poland, was the decree of the Head of State on February 7, 1919.: "The changes in the organization of Jewish communities in the former Polish Kingdom" [Journal of the Polish State's Rights of 1919., No. 14, item. 175]. This was not an entirely new act, but this amendment to the Regulation of German occupation authorities in 1916. Issued in the years 1925-1927 the government acts have extended the power of the Chief of State of the decree on the remaining provinces. On 5 a flower 1928. announced consolidated text of the Act dealing with the regime of Jewish communities in Poland, excluding the province of Silesia. Law supplemented by two implementing regulations, the Minister of Religious Affairs and Public Education on October 24, 1930

According to the Act of April 5, 1928., All Jews (used indicator of religion), the inhabitants of the Republic of Religious Association formed, made up of religious communities, the Council of Religious in the lead. Institution Religious Council, which was to be, like other religions, the chief representative body of the Jewish community in Poland, however, was not brought to life. Individual municipalities have the nature of the corporation (have legal personality) of a public - legal and municipal powers have been limited to only religious tasks, in particular, to: organize and maintain the rabbinate, the establishment and maintenance of synagogues, prayer houses, ritual baths and cemeteries, sleep over the religious upbringing of young people and provide care for kosher meat. Besides, the municipality was entitled to deal with the charitable assistance to the poor Jews, the management of foundations, whose purpose was to help charities and setting up Supervision over the Jewish communities of conviction held the Minister of Religious Affairs and Public Education, and called. the second instance - the governor. Direct supervision of confessional communities held a local district governor. In interwar Poland the right to treat the Jews as a religious group, completely ignoring the ethnic dimension - members of the community (by way of forced) were all residents of the Jewish faith. Jews created by the legislation as a whole "religious society" of public law, which consisted of religious communities. Powers of municipalities were at the same time severely limited, while the developed country with strong supervision."

"Accurate data on how many Jews live in Poland today, there is probably no. The last Polish census showed a bit more than a thousand Jews. This is an underestimate. It stemmed from the fact that most Jews who remained in Poland, it is considered in terms of culture for the nationality of the Poles, and so declared the census interviewers. How can we expect from them, that they have used racial criteria to each other, and the poll did not ask about religion or their ancestors, but of national self-identification. So first I'll give you some numbers. Well, according to the "state ownership" of Jewish organizations from four to six thousand people are connected - close or loosely - with organizations, religious congregations or Jewish communities. According to my estimates - live in Poland at least twice as many people who are Jews in the sense of religious law, that is, to a Jewish mother, and from these or other reasons, deviated from Judaism. This applies, for example, people who were hiding during the occupation, "the Aryan papier"."After World War II, this system is no longer in force. All Jews were given the right to determine by themselves their nationality. Also in the identification documents. They could belong to religious communities or not, to join the Jewish organizations, or to avoid them. Some have not returned to their Jewish names and Jewish communities, sometimes even their children were not aware that their parents were born as Jews. It was their choice. There are families in which this situation continues today. How big is this phenomenon? Here, there are only estimates. There are reasonable grounds to believe that the continuation of Jewish snap a family involves at least ten thousand people. But even if we take all the Jews in Poland, including the present - including those who have abandoned Judaism - it is only about 0.5 percent. the number of Jews in prewar Poland, however, was not always an indication back to the "practiced" Jewishness. Before the war, all Jews,

Not always, however, this meant back to the "practiced" Jewishness. Before the war, all Jews who did not officially convert to another faith, they were registered with the administrative order in the Jewish communities, regardless of whether they believed and practiced, or retain only loose ties with the faith of our forefathers and Jewish communities, or were completely polonized. It was a mandatory registration scheme of the Jews by the state. Accounted for on the one hand some form of cultural and religious autonomy, but on the other also a form of their "stamp". It later resulted in unintentional fatal consequences, because it facilitated the precise pickup in the German occupation and closure of the Jews in ghettos and later on the death bed."

WP:RS missing. — Matalea (talk) 19:00, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I've taken a second look at the above copy. It is a machine translation of several paragraphs from pl:Historia Żydów w Polsce in Wikipedia. I just compared a sentence from the opening paragraph (above) with its Polish original (below). However, in Polish Wiki, the whole paragraph is tagged with a missing source [potrzebne źródło], and so are others:

1. In the years 1844-1950 there were more than 56 Jewish colonies, with a total capacity of about 570 farms.
2. W latach 1844-50 istniało ponad 56 kolonii żydowskich, o ogólnej liczbie około 570 gospodarstw rolnych.

— Matalea (talk) 05:42, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

This article needs more sources, not more unreferenced text, particularly poor quality machine translation. I support your reverts. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 18:43, 28 March 2011 (UTC)

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Infobox blanket revert with false edit summary

Shimon Peres (born Szymon Perski on 2 August 1923) left Poland with his family in 1934 at the age of eleven. He's 88 now. – When I see a blanket revert with a false edit summary, I know that something's up. Other pictures of world-famous Polish-born Jews were also removed in that revert. Why? Because article on H-bomb designer, is the user's pet project, so he's got to go in first above everybody else in the infobox. It doesn't matter whether the layout looks bad. — A. Kupicki (talk) 17:54, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

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