Talk:Illyrian languages

Extinction

I am puzzled by the infobox - in what sense are the Illyrian languages considered to be not extinct. If Albanian is a language of the Illyrian family then I can accept that but the article seems to say that is is probably not, in that case Illyrian would definitely be extinct. Who can help me with this seeming paradox ? Jembana (talk) 05:27, 20 August 2010 (UTC)Jembana (talk) 05:27, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

illyrians, in the common usage, weren't a only one people but a geographical label for all the different peoples of former Yugolsavia in the classical time

in a strict and original sense, early Greece, they were a small nation/tribe living in the territory of present day Albania - but no one knows if modern albanians are their descendants as a nation or more recent immigrants, a part of course albanian nationalists

just before really historically documented periods and the roman conquest the small illyrian tribe had spread and "conquered" the whole region of former Yugoslavia who was then known by the romans as Illyria

no one really knows what language or languages the different illyrian peoples spoke - or the exact nature of that/those language/s (once a time it was postulated also an illyro-daco-thracian-phrygian unity but it is now disputed or wholly refuted) - the balkanic languages are now considered very different as a whole

in the indo-european studies around 1850-1950 and particularly under the national socialist historical science of the Third Reich of Adolf Hitler spread the so called Illyro-mania, a theory who claimed everything indoeuropean not clearly ascribed to historically well known indo-european groups was illyrian and the illyrians a sort of indo-european uber-race second only to the germans, a thesis still very appreciated by modern albanian nationalists

those who think albanians and albanese are the direct descendants of the ethnic illyrians and of the illyrian language then state that the iIllyrian languages must considered to be not extinctCunibertus (talk) 07:58, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Ahhh, I see - I have seen some of the Albanian nationalist videos on YouTube and wondered what the story was. Thanks very much for the detailed explantion - your reply is much appreciated. Jembana (talk) 10:59, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Pretty much agree with Cunibertus on this. Scholars pretty much have not reached a consensus on whether the Illyrians are the ascendants of the Albanians or not and whether the Illyrian language is an old form of Albanian or not. Since little is known, they say, no conclusions can be drawn. We are certain that Latin as a language is extinct because we have a huge information on it and that the vulgar Latin somehow got transformed into the Romance languages, Italian in primis, but as far as Illyrian-Albanian continuity, we know too little to opine. This is pretty much what scholars say, and that's what we have to reflect in Wikipedia. --Sulmues ^(talk) 10:55, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, very little evidence makes it hard - it used to be said that the Messapic language was the best attested Illyrian language since there are inscriptions in it - what happened to that idea. Is Messapic now considered an IE language family by itself ? ...or something else maybe - Klohi sounds almost Gaelic for "Hear me" and then there's Gallipoli, Galatina and Galatone in Apulia - could the Messapic family be closer to Celtic perhaps. Jembana (talk) 11:10, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't think anything has been discovered in the last 10 years on Messapic, still considered an Illyrian language too by scholars. --Sulmues ^(talk) 11:23, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Gallipoli means (Kallí Pólis or Kallípolis) the beautiful city and there are at least two (Italy and Turkey), Galatina is probably a medieval name (byzantine) related to the personal name "Galatos" (who is effectively linked to Galazia in Asia Minor as also to Saint Paul/Saul, the local saint), Galatone is possibly the greek or illyric "galà", milk, or again the personal name "Galatos"Cunibertus (talk) 13:00, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

But then again, it is not proven that Illyrian is not related to Albanian. So propaganda of other nationalist circles should also be disregarded. This is simply something that we do not know. Illyrian might be extincted, maybe Illyrians as a group were not homogeneous, maybe only a certain tribe is what derived the Albanian language. In the sens of the last idea. If a group of heterogeneous tribes with different languages were called Illyrians; And one of those tribes came to form what is today known as Albanian ethnicity and culture; Can we call Albanian language descendant of Illyrian? —Anna Comnena (talk) 15:06, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

We can say that that with the due wording, as soon as someone of us will buy, read, and properly cite and quote Shaban Demiraj, an excellent and contemporary expert on Illyrian language and Albanian language. The majority of the scholars endorse that hypothesis but there are others that contradict it or have other hypothesis. --Sulmues ^(talk) 15:28, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

I have read the book of Demiraj and used its arguments a little bit here and a little bit in Origin of Albanians, according to their context. Or do you have in mind something else? Aigest (talk) 07:05, 21 August 2010 (UTC)

Extinction vs Descendance

We know that Albanian might derive from Illyrian, either anyone likes it or not, that is an existing hypotheses, so the term extinction might not look appropriate in this case. Take a look at the following scholars from different decades:

2000s' Other surviving groups are Armenian, Celtic, Illyrian (modern Albanian).. Concise Encyclopaedia of World History Author Carlos Ramirez-Faria Publisher Atlantic Publishers & Distributors, 2007 ISBN 8126907754, 9788126907755 page 345

1990s' The apparent survival of (Indo-European) Illyrian as modern Albanian seems to be due partly to the Albanians' isolation... A history of the Byzantine state and society History e-book project Author Warren T. Treadgold Edition illustrated Publisher Stanford University Press, 1997 ISBN 0804726302, 9780804726306 page 921

1980s' Illyrian in the view of most scholars survives in the shape of Albanian to the present day...Greece old and new Authors Tom Winnifrith, Penelope Murray Editors Tom Winnifrith, Penelope Murray Contributor Penelope Murray Edition illustrated Publisher Macmillan, 1983 Original from the University of Michigan Digitized Oct 26, 2006 ISBN 0333278364, 9780333278369 page 73 and in the other book The Vlachs: the history of a Balkan people, Volume 1987, Part 2 The Vlachs: The History of a Balkan People, T. J. Winnifrith Author Tom Winnifrith Edition 2, illustrated Publisher Duckworth, 1987 ISBN 0715621351, 9780715621356 page 60

1970s' Illyrian has survived for as long as Greek within our area. Geography has played a large part in that survival; for the mountains of Montenegro and northern Albania have supplied the almost impenetrable home base of the Illyrian-speaking peoples. They were probably the first occupants, apart from nomadic hunters, of the Accursed Mountains and their fellow peaks, and they maintained their independence when migrants such as the Slavs occupied the more fertile lowlands and the highland basins. Their language may lack the cultural qualities of Greek, but it has equalled it in its power to survive and it too is adapting itself under the name of Albanian to the conditions of the modern world...Migrations and invasions in Greece and adjacent areas Author Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond Edition illustrated Publisher Noyes Press, 1976 ISBN 0815550472, 9780815550471 page 163

1960s Albanian is undoubtedly the old native language of the Illyrians...The decline of the ancient world General history of Europe Ghe Series Author Arnold Hugh Martin Jones Publisher Holt, Rinehart and Winston, 1966page 347

thus the previous version was ok according to various scholar claims. Some see it as extinct (regardless if Albanian might be considered as its descendant), some regard Albanian as its modern representative claiming that it can not be said that Illyrian is extincted since Albania represents it nowadays(see claims above) Aigest (talk) 14:59, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I have to disagree. Even if Albanian descends from Illyrian, Illyrian would still be extinct because they would be separate languages. It's like Latin and Italian. Italian descends from Latin, but Latin is nonetheless a dead language (actually, quite a few people are fluent in Latin, in contrast to "Illyrian", about which we know next to nothing). Now, since from past experience I don't expect to get anywhere with this discussion, I refer this dispute to WP:FTN and let the community decide. Athenean (talk) 20:09, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I don't expect Hammond, Treadgold, and others works to be called fringe. That's how they see the matter. Just think of the fact that the Illyrian language and Illyrians of 6th century AD were very different from the Illyrian language and Illyrians of 6th century BC when Greeks had first contacts with Illyrians in Dyrrachium and Apolonia. There were some 1200 years of distance between them and in the case of a non written language you can expect a lot of changes, and that is the same for the people especially after 800 years of Roman rule. IMO, the above mentioned scholars express their view because their reasoning is that, just like Illyrian changed from 6th century BC to 6th century AD, that was the case with its modern form of Albanian, thus it can not be called extinct, because it has survived in the form of Albanian. That's not a matter of fringe theories but a matter of POV. Some see it differently the others no. Aigest (talk) 09:11, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

• My thoughts on this are at the bottom of WP:FTN. Briefly put, would removing the foolish box itself not be an improvement on the ludicrous status quo? Moreschi (talk) 19:39, 1 January 2011 (UTC)
  • briefly put, in my opinion the best improvement of the ludicrous status quo would be to make a point of ignoring and reverting all editors who are here to point their nationalist ideology. I am simply not willing to read any discussion about Albanian on this page other than a brief statement that some people have claimed a connection. Anything else goes on Albanian language since it is not this article's topic. --dab (𒁳) 16:31, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I think that nationalist ideology editors are much more about Greek and Latin, which are a big falsification of Churches. Albanian is a natural language that need to be studied and not to mix up with nationalist and anti-nationalist superpositions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.167.93.207 (talk) 03:42, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

Etymology

Alleged etymologies are in heavy need of references, deriving deuádai ("satyrs") from "he shakes", "to rage, seethe", "sulfur vapor", "foolish", "Dionysos", "to rage", "wild animal", "to perish, die (animals)", "to gasp" doesn't seem reasonable. Something relating to "devas", "deus" or some such would IMHO be more plausible (just an example). Each etymology needs its own reference. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 18:47, 9 January 2011 (UTC)