Talk:Illyrians

OR deductions by Alexikoua

The latest or deduction of Alexikoua doesn't even correspond to the text or the context of what he's citing[1].--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:22, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

That's completely sourced with the reference. Also the source is the same you used several times the last days (plz avoid extreme wp:npas vios)Alexikoua (talk) 22:26, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I'll inform the only admin who's willing to deal with the usual or deductions.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:27, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I wonder where is the or:

Article	Source
"According to the modern archeological community it is certain that the Illyrians didn't share any kind of common ethnic identity"	[[2]] "so most modern scholars, even though now possessed of a mass of archaeological and linguistic evidence, can assert with confidence only that Illyrians were not an homogeneous ethnic entity

It's not the first time you accuse me of 'oring' but in fact te case is too obvious.Alexikoua (talk) 22:37, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

...though that is too challenged by historians and archaeologists, which you don't add to the quote because that completely changes the context of your already false deduction, because were not a homogeneous ethnic community doesn't mean didn't share any kind of common ethnic identity, which is too obvious.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 22:41, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

It says that some propagandists in modern Albania reject this ([[3]] though even that is today challenged with vigour by historians and archaeologists working within the perspective of modern Albania]. Off course this belongs to Albanian nationalism and is irrelevant with history. In general wikipedia prefer the opinion of the international archeological community in such issues (Wilkes is clear on this).Alexikoua (talk) 22:55, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

That's an or deduction and nn fact if you read it lists those that challenge it including Ivo Banac, a Croatian historian.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 23:01, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with ZRr don't share any kind of common ethnic identity and were not a homogeneous ethnic entity is not the same thing. —Anna Comnena (talk) 13:40, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

@AC: the specific part has been adjusted to days now.Alexikoua (talk) 18:14, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I am glad :). —Anna Comnena (talk) 18:41, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

You people have a lot of infantile problems for simple reasons. Article is bad. It looks like chaotic conglomeration of selective statements, taken from here and there. There are no proper definitions of "Illyrians", no proper classification of "Illyrians", no archaeology included etc. It seems Wilkes is used as the main source. And while Wilkes is not so bad in details (but only details!), he is catastrophicvally bad in general - his book "Illyrians" was out of date already at moment of its first publishing and unfortunatelly he has never made it more correct in newer editions. There are no quality sources in English language - that is your problem. As long as this article looks like written 50 years ago, you will argue over stupid things. 78.3.63.78 (talk) 11:09, 8 April 2011 (UTC)

Illyrians are the modern Albanians

Illyrians have to be the modern Albanians. Ofcourse there has to be a minor influence comming from the thracians. According to me and many other non-slavic non-albanian historians they are the authentic Illyrians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atdheu110 (talk • contribs) 18:27, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid you do not meet wikipedia's requirement for being a reliable source. The reality is much more complicated than what you claim. Athenean (talk) 17:29, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Modern Albanians partially descend from the Ottomans, they are mongrelised, certianly not pure-blooded Illyrians. Anglo Pyramidologist (talk) 01:32, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

You might not be aware but the use of mongrelised is not used to refer to people in discussion unless you intend to be offensive. It is used to dehumanise and defame groups of people and so fails our CIVIL policy and may be seen as inflammatory. Thanks Fæ (talk) 07:38, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Map

I really don't see the point of replacing a map that shows Illyris in its entirety, with one that only shows a small part of Illyris (the southernmost part) and a whole bunch of non-Illyrian tribes. Most of the tribes in the new map are not even Illyrian. Furthermore, I don't see any reason why the other map was removed in the first place. Athenean (talk) 06:34, 2 May 2011 (UTC)

I am in the process of making a map for the more northern areas. The fact that there are non-Ilyrian groups isn't a major problem, as the map is label "tribes in Illyris, EPirus, Macedonia"- and the positioning of Illyrian tribes c.f. Epirotic and Thracian ones is informative. Nevertheless, the map file was added a reference as to linguistic categorization to avoid confusion.

The old map was less aethetically pleasing and frankly incorrect in some locations, deficient in others, and on the whole, temporally confused, including tribes from Roman era in the classical period. Slovenski Volk (talk) 07:25, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

As I see the new map doesn't mention which tribe is classified as Illyrian or Greek, so it's obviously much less informative. I also note that same labels like the Enchelaioi are placed some kms south compared to the sources (and a similar map created recently [File:PreMacedon.png]). Since the tribes mentioned in the new map are classified to the group they belong guess we can keep this new piece (but it's still less informative compared to the more detailed but less aesthetically pleased old one).Alexikoua (talk) 07:48, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

it does mention it, on the actual file page. Ive done away with label-coloring, it looks less cartographic. Given it's aim is tribal geography , I maintain that it is more informative Slovenski Volk (talk) 08:30, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

Most of the Illyrian tribes in this map are not included, in fact this map (you insist to place again and again):

• shows only some southern tribes (with the Enchelaoi placed somewhat wrong),
• excludes the rest of the Illyrian tribes compared to the old map,
• the reader can't see which tribe is Illyrian or not unless he clicks on the map and then reads the description: in fact the majority of the tribes mentioned are not Illyrian.Alexikoua (talk) 08:46, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

I am re-considering about labelling; and I understand your critique. You are correct that it would be more obvious at first glance if the tribes are colour coded. I thought (initially) that the prupose of the map was tribal geography - ie to ilustrate where tribes were in relation to one another; and not, primarily, what language they spoke (which we do not even know for most of the "Illyrian" tribes- as you might be well aware - all we have is a few names to go on).

• nevertheless, if you (& other editors) insist that the tribes are coloured differently, that can be done as quickly as one mouse click !
• which southern Illyrian tribes are misssing ?!
• all we know for surety is that the Enchelae were around lake Ohrid and NW of the Dexari, but for consistency, I can place them further north-east.
• and as it is (clearly) written above, a map of the northern & central Illyrian tribes is already in process. Just have patience for few hours - couple of days

Slovenski Volk (talk) 09:53, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

I still don't see the reason why we sould replace a map that shows the entire Illyrian tribes area with another that shows a small fraction of it. Suppose if you can draw a map that shows southern&central&northern Illyrian tribes (i.e. all in general) this will be the same informative as the old one.

As for your specific map about southern Illyria etc.

• the tribes should be colored, else we the reader can't know what's going on without clicking on the map
• specific labels should be corrected or removed (Enchelae can be placed either north or south of Ochrid, Dodona was some kms se, there is an orphan dot near the Bylliones which I suppose is Byllis, did the names Trebenishte and Gevgheli existed in antiquity?). However, in general it looks good, but it doesn't deal with the entire Illyrian region.Alexikoua (talk) 11:00, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

I have to agree with Alexikoua about the tribes being colored differently. The figure should include a legend, otherwise readers are left to their own devices as to which tribes are Illyrians and which are not. Now, whatever happens with the new map, I don't see a valid reason to remove the older map. That it is less "aesthetically pleasing" is not a valid argument. I happen to find it more aesthetically pleasing, so what? Nor does it purport to be a map of the Illyrians at a specific point in time (classical period, hellenistic, roman, etc...), rather it is a map of the Illyrians throughout the ages. I don't see a valid rationale for removing it. Athenean (talk) 17:36, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

OK I will repeat, then.

(a) It does, Athenean, claim to represent a "pre-Roman conquest map". Even if it didn;t, why would a non-sense, temporally confused map with tribes from 6th century BC which do not exist be on a map with tribes created after Roman conquest. There is no logic

(b) It is crammed, esp in the southern (Illyris) area, a larger, more amplified map is needed. In order to achieve this, two maps are needed

(c) there are frank inaccuracies in placement (the Scordisci are in northwest Bosnia, rather than near Belgrade; and the Carni in Bohemia  !!)

(d) so it is not merely about aesthetics, but factual accuracy. We would be leaving a map which is informing us of wrong information. That is a strong reason to remove it, one would think. So Athenean, you're incorrect, old friend.

I can sense that the real reason that you do not want to include (what is otherwise an obviously far superior map) is because some people might get Epirotes confused with Illyrians. Not all people are nationalistic chauvanists, and this map won't lead to any questionable conclusions Slovenski Volk (talk) 23:09, 3 May 2011 (UTC)

I suggest we should have the second map first in order to conclude which option is better. At this moment the only map (or pair of maps) that gives the whole picutre is the old one, not to mention the problematic nature with the unclassified tribes.Alexikoua (talk) 06:41, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Map, continued

Τhe main problem with Slovenski Volk's map of southern Illyria is that is not really a map of southern Illyria: It is a map of the greater Macedonia region, with Illyria occupying only the upper left corner of it, about a quarter of the map. The rest of the map has nothing to do with Illyria and Illyrians. Why is Thrace shown? Thessaly? What do the Odrysae have to do with Illyria? It is also incorrectly labeled. By simply presenting it as a map of Illyria, our readers might be misled into thinking that Macedonia, Thessaly and Thrace are part of Illyria. I'm getting the impression that this article and map is being used as a platform for showing Macedonia with the word "Greek" carefully omitted, with little actual interest in the Illyrians themselves (I hope I'm wrong). There is no need to get into the whole Macedonian thing in this article: It is completely irrelevant. Alexikoua's map on the other is more focused. It is a map of southern Illyria, and nothing more. That's what we need, not off-topic digressions about unrelated neighboring tribes. As long as your map shows all of Macedonia, Thrace and Thessaly, I cannot accept it. That is was there "first" means nothing, that is not a valid argument. Athenean (talk) 01:53, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

What are you trying to say, that this map is irredentist ? That's just ludicrous. There is nothing wrong with showing a greater part of the central Balkans, and anyone who has interest in this region knows where Illyria broadly is, where Thrace is, and where Macedonia is. Should these be bluured out ? ? Be sensible. The tribes are clearly laballed Illyrian, Epirote, Thracian, Paeonian. I have labelled the maps according to general definition of contemporary authors used ie mostly of a political nature. The issue of who spoke Greek and who didn't, who was more Hellenized and who less, is irrelevant to the map (and in fact some of these southern 'barbarians' were probably even more Hellenized (some of them) than the peoples of the Haliakmon valley (!) So what ?) This map reflects (roughly) the tribal territories of groups in southern Illyris, Epirus and andjacent regions - and how they were primarily classified by contemporary observers. It does this correctly, so do not bring political agendas into this- you are unfairly corrupting a good map Slovenski Volk (talk) 03:11, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

What is irrelevant to this article is what tribes inhabited Macedonia, Thrace, etc. These places aren't even mentioned anywhere in the article, and for good reason. I don't understand what is so hard about making a map of southern Illyria, and why a map that claims to be such needs to show Thessaly and Thrace. Illyria forms a very small portion of your map, less than a quarter. If you can't see what's wrong with that, I don't have anything else to say to you. Athenean (talk) 05:00, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I used the map template because it is topographically well constructed. It would look rather unsightly if one were to crop out a large section of it just to satisfy your unwarranted (and rather paranoid) concerns Slovenski Volk (talk) 05:21, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Well, apparently someone else has used another map template, and it works much better. By the way, how exactly is a map template that truncates Greece at Thessaly "well constructed"? What makes a map template "well constructed" and who decides? It is just an arbitrarily selected portion of the Balkans, nothing more. And watch the veiled personal attacks, really not a good idea, know what I mean? Anyway, looks we're done here. Athenean (talk) 05:30, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I find your grivences comedic. When one centres a map on the latitude of our interest, the abovementioned areas will naturally also appear. Please provide the corresponding Wikipedia guideline which stipulates that maps of one area must not show neighbouring regions, and I;ll happily amend the map Slovenski Volk (talk) 06:35, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

You know, if your map were the only game in town, I might have accepted it, but since there is another game in town, I won't. The geographic template of Alexikoua's map works much better, as it picks up right where your northern map stops. Your northern map stops at northern Albania, which is right where Alexikoua's map begins. On the other hand, your southern map extends far to the east and south of Illyria. It also conflicts with your northern map. While the southern map shows Kosovo as inhabited by the Dassarenses and the Autariates, and the Dardanians in Paeonia, your northern map shows Kosovo as inhabited exclusively by the Dardani. And you still haven't answered my question why we must show Thrace and Thessaly. "I think it's interesting", "Why not?", "My map was there first" and "I find your grievances comedic" are not valid arguments. The northern map doesn't extend into Austria and Romania, does it? Nor have you shown any reason why your southern map is better than Alexikoua's map. In short, you haven't provided any valid reason why we should your map over Alexikoua's map. Athenean (talk) 06:52, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

By the way, why does your northern map mention "Macedonia" in boldface in the bottom right corner, when a) I don't see any other toponyms anywhere (e.g. Moesia), and b) in antiquity that area was known as Paeonia/Dardania and was not known as Macedonia until the 19th century? Athenean (talk) 06:56, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

-> Rome had conquered Macedonia and created a province by that name before it had done so in Moesia :)

I am not saying it must. All I'm saying is why not. Some of your points are valid, but there is no actual need for the maps to tesselate, esp given that the maps are depicting two different eras, anyway. Like I told Alexi, there is nothign groslly wrong with my map. It is your personal taste that has issues with it. If there are any gross, NPOV things which we need changing (eg the labelling of Macedonia), then I will accomodate (as I always have (!)). But I think we have been dealing with each other long enough to extend some courtesy to each other, irrespective of our different interpretations on some topics. To illustrate this, we should not just blanketly remove my map. I am happy to make any alterations which are valid and not just a mattter of your taste, and we can use Alexi's map for Epirus. ? Slovenski Volk (talk) 07:26, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

The maps shouldn't depict different eras if by that you mean the northern and southern map. If we're going to have two maps, one for northern & central Illyria, and one for southern Illyria, they should depict the same era. Like I keep having to repeat, the main problem with your southern map is that it is not really a map of southern Illyria, but a map of the central Balkans. Illyria occupies only a very small portion of that map. I can see such a map being appropriate in, say, Balkans or History of the Balkans, but for this article, I definitely think Alexikoua's map is better, if only because it's geographical template fits in much better with the northern map. Also, we are already going with your northern map, so if we also include your southern map, then that means we use both your maps and none of Alexikoua's. Wouldn't it be more fair and courteous to share, i.e. we go with your northern map and Alexikoua's southern map, one each? As for Epirus, that article is already chock full of maps, and Alexikoua's map extends way past the northern boundary of Epirus. Athenean (talk) 16:03, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

It's still without explanation why a map that depicts most of Balkans should stay in this article, not to mention the major inaccuracies and the poor arguments [[4]]. About the map that concentrates in s. Illyrian and nw Greek tribes, I've made some changes: I've removed the 'tribes that underwent a degree of Helleniztion' since almost all s. Illyrian tribes were under the influence of Greek culture (to the territory of the Illyrii).Alexikoua (talk) 20:15, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Athenean, wth regard to them being from different eras, it has to be so. Becuase during Archaic period we know virtually nithing about central & northern Illyrians apart from odd reports about Liburnian pirates, Tualants, etc. It is with the 'opening up' of central Illyria that sources start knowing many of the tribes - just a side note. Alexi, I dont know what "major inconsitencies' you're talking about. But I take some of your arguements and do see merit in Alexi's map Slovenski Volk (talk) 03:05, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I am glad we resolved this amicably, however, I have two minor requests for the northern map. One, would you be kind enough to remove the "Macedonia", since it doesn't really belong as it is not a tribal name. And two, I believe you have placed the Albanoi a little too far north. From what I know, they were a little further south, near modern-day Krujë. Athenean (talk) 00:08, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

ok ihall ake thos changes assoon as i get back home Slovenski Volk (talk) 16:32, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Definition and Categorization of the Illyrians

You have invalid definition of the name Illyrians and invalid categorization.

The Illyrians (Ancient Greek: Ἰλλυριοί; Latin: Illyrii or Illyri) were a group of tribes... - the very first sentence in the article and already wrong.

There should be something like: "The Illyrians (Ancient Greek: Ἰλλυριοί; Latin: Illyrii or Illyri) were a group of peoples..." and then name "Illyrians" should be explained: it is geo-political term from the age of the Roman conquest..., it's not ethnical or cultural.

There are 2 modern categorizations, according to Wilkes and according to Katičić, differing in a detail. None of it is presented and used here! How come? This is the real ethno-cultural categorization:

1. Southern Illyrians (proprie dicti)

2. Delmati

3. Liburni

4. Histri

5. Iapodes

6. Pannonians

7A. Eastern Dalmatian group - by Wilkes

7B. Pannonian - Dalmatian group - by Katičić

7A - Eastern Dalmatian group (Pirustae, Glinditiones) were one special group according to Wilkes; according to Katičić they were Dalmatian - Pannonians.

7B - Pannonian - Dalmatian (or Dalmatian - Pannonian) group were one special group settled in the regions of central and eastern Dalmatia and southern Pannonia (Roman provinces Dalmatia and Pannonia) according to Katičić. Sometimes, name "Southern Pannonians" is used for them. They were under Celtic influence, but much less than the Pannonians.

(Katičić's version is revision of Wilkes and more actual and accurate.) These groups (1-7) must be treated as separate peoples. Not tribes. Each one consists of smaller tribes! Therefore none of your map is useful. You should make one map showing distribution of these general groups - peoples, and additional maps for every group separately. You cannot define the Delmatians as the Illyiarn tribe, because they were not Illyrian tribe, they were separate people. But you can define Ardiaei or Taulanti as the Illyrian tribes, because they were some of the tribes of the Southern Illyrian group (Ilyrii proprie dicti). 93.143.28.172 (talk) 11:40, 25 October 2011 (UTC)