Talk:International maritime signal flags

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• commons:Nautical Signal Flags
• de:Flaggenalphabet
• en:International maritime signal flags
• es:Banderas de señales
• ru:Сигнальные флаги
• it:Codice Internazionale Nautico

Any Questions? I think german version would be the best solution, because it has clear lines.

--Saperaud 18:50, 24 July 2005 (UTC)

Look at these SVGs: commons:Category:Nautical Signal Flags. The German article already uses them.

Sorry, but I've already trumped that series with my own expanded set of signal flag SVG's, at commons:Category:International Code of Signals. --  Denelson83  02:38, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I find it very odd that you have removed the old flags and replaced them with your own, simply to "trump" them (and increase your own wiki coverage?). If you had examined the link that was in the article, you would have found SVG graphics that are released under the Creative Commons license. This would have saved you time in creating your own flags (except the ones I have not made, half of which would simply have required a bucket fill on my existing templates!) and would probably have given you time to add value to another article.

I am not too fussed about the link to my site (thanks to whoever added it before, it was appreciated) or even that you've made your own, but duplicated effort seems pointless when somebody else has already taken their own time and given permission for them to be used freely.

If you'd like to contact me via email, you can find the address on my website, which was linked in previous versions.

edeca

Request for definitions

Can someone explain what all the flags at the bottom mean?

Mike Schiraldi 17:11, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Prompt Flag

Does anyone have a reference for the "Prompt" flag? I've never seen it, and I've checked two references and not found it. Jablomih 13:30, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

– According to the International Code of Signals, the code and answering pennant should be in the place of the 'prompt' flag, which I too have never seen. Additionally, I've never seen the fourth substitute flag, although I can conceive of situations in which it could be used. Gigacannon 12:03, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Should prompt be deleted then? The fourth substitute is a U.S. Navy and/or NATO flag; it's not in the ICS. Jablomih 01:18, 4 March 2007 (UTC)

I am a Navy signalman and I have never heard of a "prompt" flag. Code/ANS can be used to acknowledge a hoist (rather than repeating it). Is that what "prompt" is for? Uriel 00:32, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Prompt flag deleted. --Jablomih (talk) 23:32, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record, here's the source I used for the prompt flag. And no, it doesn't explain how it's supposed to be used, so it can stay gone. --  Denelson83  11:42, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Flag borders

I uploaded all of these flag images with borders, and now some of them have had the borders removed. Either all of the flags have borders, or none have them. --  Denelson83  19:50, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

The flags with a lot of white (such as H and S) are very unclear without borders. Perhaps a better solution would be to use a background color, such as light gray. I can't figure out how to do this with the <gallery> tag. The German de:Flaggenalphabet page uses a simple table to display the flags, so a background color can be applied to individual table cells, and it looks much better.--RadioTheodric (talk) 13:16, 15 July 2009 (UTC)

I think there are issues with all of the versions of the ICS flags that various folks have done. In addition to how to do borders, there are also matters of color, proportion, and naming (and even some details of design) that are inconsistent. Lamentably so, as it rather shows us up to be a bunch of amateurs. So I ask: would everyone be interested in working up how to do a first-rate set of ICS flag images?

- J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:15, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

NATO Usage

I added a (tiny) expanded section on NATO usage of INTERCO flags. It is fairly small, but by rights it shouldn't have been marked as a "minor" edit (why Wikipedia does this by default I have no idea). Oops. Uriel 00:33, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't make it by default. Help:Minor_edit. Peachey88 ^{(Talk Page | Contribs)} 22:34, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

I have moved the several sections on the NATO flags to the article on Naval flag signalling. -J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:46, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

External links to spam pages

I have removed the external link to the Plymouth Gin ceramics plate page for a second time (first time by User:Peachey88). The page (link) does not add to the knowledge of maritime signal flags but does attempt to sell plates with maritime flags on them with non-standard meanings for each flag (mainly aimed at Gin or drinking Gin). I'm all for a drink (or more) but the link doesn't belong here. Please discuss reasons to have it added to the article here with others before adding it back in. HeadSnap (talk) 15:16, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

History of this system?

Would someone add a bit of history to the intro of this article, e.g. Who devised this system of flags? Where and when did the designs originate? Is there any logic at all to the sequence, or are they simply random? Which organization was responsible for approving the change from the historical number flags to the modern ones and when? When were the flag shapes standardized? Etc. Charvex (talk) 03:08, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

The article on on the International Code of Signals has some of the history. The ICS was built on successive developments, of which some of the details can be found in various places. E.g., in earliar versions there was a mixture of flags (properly, the rectangular shapes) and pennants (the tapered or triangular shapes) for letters and numerals. This was deemed confusing, so the pennants were moved out and now are only numerals or substitute/code flags. Also, in an early version the vowels were left out to avoid any chance of forming, in any language, "indelicate" words. It's because of this kind of stuff I think this article could be wonderfully developed. (See my proposal, below). - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:02, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

A small amount of history can now be found in the new article Maritime flag signalling. Follow the links for more. J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 02:19, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Romeo, romeo...

Since when has ROMEO had a single letter meaning? Forgive me if one has been snuck in when I wasn't looking, but last time a read a copy of the International Code of Signals, Romeo definitely didn't have a single letter meaning. 94.197.213.106 (talk) 13:35, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

"International maritime signal flags"?

I have been making some fairly minor adjustments and clarifications. However, there is one point I am reticent to jump on, as it goes to the heart of the article: strictly speaking, there really is no "International maritime signal flags" as such. I believe the subject as originally intended is the signal flags (implicitly maritime) of the International Code of Signals (ICS) (which is a separate article). (More particularly, this would be the "International flags and pennants" of the ICS; see the chart in the article.) In that regard there are two significant problems with this article: 1) it largely overlaps the ICS article, and 2) the "Allied" (actually U.S. Navy and NATO) flags are not ICS.

I would like to propose a different approach: "Maritime signal flags". In modern usage, and outside of various naval usages, this is largely the ICS. But there was considerably historical development, including the flag systems of Maryatt and Popham, and apparently some significant developments with the French. This would take some research, but could be an excellent article, and could show how various developments lead to the ICS. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 21:47, 23 September 2009 (UTC)

I have created a new article, Maritime flag signalling, which I think will serve the purpose of the current article. Could still use an article on naval flag signalling (which I don't particularly want to do). J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 02:24, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

I did do a minimal article on naval flag signalling, but I do consider it a minimal stub. Anyone that is interested, please jump in and expand it. There is much potential. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 23:16, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

We now have:

• International maritime signal flags
• International Code of Signals
• Maritime flag signalling
• Flag signals
• Flaghoist signalling
• Flag semaphore
• Substitute flag
• International maritime signal flags
• Naval flag signalling

Surely we can group some of these togetehr and improve them in terms of readability and context? "Naval" and "maritime" are the same thing but different code table. --Wtshymanski (talk) 20:52, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Re accuracy.

I would to mention several items which, though they may seem just small nits, do go to the accuracy and even professionalism of Wikipedia.

First, the flag names (phonetic alphabet) just added are not merely "nautical". They are established in a formal standard (see International Code of Signals), and that is the authoritative source to which we should refer.

Second, the correct spellings are "Alfa" and "Xray" (not Alpha and x-ray). These are fairly wide-spread errors, but they are still errors. See the standard.

Third, and as I have mentioned in the prior section, this article itself is rather incorrect. I have created three other articles (International Code of Signals, Maritime flag signalling, and Naval flag signalling), which I believe better cover the general subject. There are some parts of this article that could be moved to the Naval flag signalling article, but after that I suggest that this article should be taken down. For this reason I think we should not be doing any work on this article. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 00:03, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Anecdotal material.

I am reluctant to do any editing on this page, believing it should be phased out in favor of the other pages mentioned above. But as long as this page is up it should be maintained, so I have removed some anecdotal material about the Zulu flag that went beyond the "ICS meaning".

I would like to point out that I am not against anecdotal material if it contributes an the article by illustrating some point or making it more interesting (and provided it is presented properly, including citation). But it seems there is a tendency to throw in any factoid we happen to know about a topic just because we know it, without consideration of how it might contribute to the article. Which then increases the level of distracting clutter, and weakens the integrity and cogency of the article. In this case the anecdotal material, although not uninteresting, was not in the scope of "ICS meaning". If anyone really wants to include this material I would suggest a new section, something along the line of "Notable uses" or some such, and then include a selection of such notable uses. (Search some of the other flag websites for examples.) - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:47, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

It's Alfa.

To the various folks who keep "fixing" things that you "know": you really ought to look before you leap. E.g., please do not make changes just on what you think is correct, but take a look at the source. If you do not trust this chart, download the official U.S. version of the ICS and look at it.

It really is Alfa. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:19, 9 June 2010 (UTC)

Numeric flags

[Comment moved into new section. -JJ]

Also, shouldn't numeric flags be included here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wordensong (talk • contribs) 14:07, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I would say "yes" – and "no". Yes, because the numeric flags are just as much part of the Code as the alphabetic flags. But also "no" because I think this article should be removed. Its original conception was flawed, it has various deficiencies, and is (I think) well and sufficiently replaced by the articles on International Code of Signals, Naval flag signalling, and Maritime flag signalling. In brief, I think it should be abandoned rather than fixed. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 20:24, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Alternate numbers and codes?

Anybody know what the last two columns are in http://hyc.org/system/files/Signal-Flags.pdf? I'm also curious about the flag labeled "CA". I've always known that as AP (Answering Pennant). Is CA some alternate meaning for that? -- RoySmith (talk) 19:19, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Those are U.S. Navy (and NATO) flags; see Naval flag signalling#NATO flags. CA is "Code Answering", meaning the flaghoist is ICS. I think that image is from John Savard's page (see external references), look around there for more info. - J. Johnson (JJ) (talk) 22:00, 9 July 2011 (UTC)