Talk:Iraq

Factual Errors

The preponderance of what has been stated here appears to be correct however Mesopotamia has also been a part of modern day Kuwait, I’m a little suspicious on why that has not been included. Many of the kingdoms of ancient Iraq have historically been part of Kuwait.

Also, Mesopotamia is not the “Cradle of Civilization” it’s the birth place of civilization and saying things like the birth place of “Western Civilization” started in Greece is not going to alter that fact, sorry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Narocross (talk • contribs) 04:12, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

In order to remain factual concerning civilian casualties, you need to state that the estimate from the Iraq Body Count project is '100,000', not just that it was 'significantly less'. There is a huge difference between 1 million civilian casualties and 100,000 civilian casualties. To only state one million implies a reluctance to state both numbers- also implies a certain amount of deviousness or a desire to manipulate opinion. Further, the use of civilian shields by Saddam's forces must also be included in this discussion. Also, there is the appearance of biase in this portion of the article. It almost seems to 'want' to prove a larger number by including the quote from Iraq Body Count Project's website. For credibility's sake, Wikipedia must be scathingly neutral. (susanshannon) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Susanshannon (talk • contribs) 02:45, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

I have removed the claim by ORB survey of Iraq War casualties. Feel free to modify what you think is non-credible or non-neutral in this article.--Rafy talk 12:19, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

'US-led Invasion' is also politically charged language. Most of this section of the article is not neutral. It states opinions as facts- example: only weak evidence was found for weapons of mass destruction. This is factually incorrect. French, British, Russian & German intelligence agencies agreed that biological agents were still being manufactured and stored in Iraq. Russian intelligence also stated that Saddam planned an imminent threat to US interests (this is found in Wikipedia in another article). This article should include that Saddam Hussein, himself, claimed to have a nuclear weapons program. Many intelligence agencies estimated that Saddam not only had a nuclear program, but that he was within two months of producing a warhead. This information should be included. It was also theorized that Saddam Hussein used the six months of UN-American arguments to move the weapons by train to Syria. This theory should also be included. This section would more correctly be called Iraq War II.The title 'Occupation' is mileading and should be re-labled appropriately. Much of the information under this text (such as the hanging of Saddam Hussein) does not seem to correlate to the issue or claim of Occupation. Further, the name 'Occupation' is technically incorrect. The Iraqis requested that U.S troops remain to support the government. The presence of U.S. troops was not forced upon the government as is implied by 'occupation'. "Post Iraqi War II" would be more correct and more nuetral.

There is no discussion about the new Iraqi constitution, the free elections held (and still being held) to allow the Iraqi people choose not only their political representatives, but the actual form of their government and the contents of their constitution. More information should be included on the structure of their political representation, women's new-found rights, freedom of speech, etc.

There should be more information concerning the money the United States spent on the war, how much the United States forgave in war debt. There should be information on how much money the American public gave via charities to the improvement of the life.

This article only states the negatives of the Iraq war, but none of the positive results (implying a democratic, progressive or politically liberal bent). In order to maintain credibility, Wikipedia must ensure a neutral tone- it must state all the facts possible in a balanced fashion. If it doesn't, it will only ever be a 'yellow' opinion piece. I like Wikipedia and have used it extensively, but when I see this kind of biased writing allowed, I shake my head. p.s. other articles on the Iraq war are much better and more comprehensive and professional. You should ensure good editing (with the goal of representing as many facts as possible) before anyone can 'post' their article! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Susanshannon (talk • contribs) 03:24, 31 March 2011 (UTC)

The section looks fine to me. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kmmnderkoala (talk • contribs) 05:06, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

US-led invasion

Could you please replace with 'US-led Removal of Saddam Hussein' ? Patrickfmuller (talk) 13:32, 10 April 2011 (UTC)

       Why in the world would they do that? It was an invasion. A justified one, in my opinion, but it was an invasion none the less.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kmmnderkoala (talk • contribs) 04:58, 12 December 2011 (UTC) 

Demographics

My following edit has just been reverted so I have brought it here so that it can be discussed:

"According to the 1957 Iraqi census, which is recognized as the last reliable census, as later censuses were reflections of the Arabization policies of the Ba’th regime, Arabs formed the largest ethnicity followed by Kurds (13%) and Iraqi Turkmen (9%). Subsequent censuses, in 1967, 1977, 1987 and 1997, are all considered highly unreliable, due to suspicions of regime manipulation.

An April 2009 estimate of the total Iraqi population is 31,234,000. Iraq's population was estimated at only 2 million in 1878.

According to the Central Intelligence Agency, Iraq's population is made up of 75%-80% Arabs, 15%-20% Kurds, and 5% Turkoman, Assyrian, or other. However, the population of the Turkish speaking Iraqi Turkmens is of heated debate; the figure mostly referred to by Kurdish groups and Western scholars is that Iraqi Turkmen make up 2-3% of the Iraqi population, or approximately 500,000-800,000; however, not all Western scholars accept this view, for example, Scott Taylor suggested that the Iraqi Turkmen accounted for 2,080,000 of Iraq's 25 million inhabitants in 2004 whilst Patrick Clawson has stated that the Iraqi Turkmen make up about 9% of the total population. Furthermore, international organizations such as the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization has stated that the Iraqi Turkmen community is 3 million or 13% of the Iraqi population."

I believe that it is important that it is mentioned that the Iraqi census' are highly regarded as unreliable, as well as the ethnic make-up of the population. For example, there is a lot of academics which state that there is a debate regarding the Iraqi Turkmen population. Kurdish groups place it at 2-3% (as do some Western scholars) whereas Iraqi Turkmen place it at 9% + (as do some Western scholars). Personally, I do not know the "real" number, however, we must acknowledge this dispute within the article.Turco85 (Talk) 14:35, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

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1. According to [1] "Both Turkey and Turkmen organizations have often claimed that they number more than 2 million—around 7.5 percent of the total population of Iraq [1]—and perhaps up to 3 million, or approximately 11 percent of the total [2]. However, most Western sources put the figure considerably lower at 2-3 percent of the population of Iraq, or 500,000-800,000."
2. The claim that Turkmen formed 800,000 is highly unreliable. Especially when we know that they formed 80,000 in Kirkuk in 1957[2] (note that the province included areas such as Kifri and Tuz Khormato and Kalar where the Turkmen formed a substantial percentage).
3. What makes the UNPO reliable? Articles there are published by its members, Iraqi National Turkmen Party in the case of the Turkmen.--Rafy talk 14:57, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Rafy, as I have already said, I do not know the population of Iraqi Turkmen in Iraq. The point is that there is a genuine dispute regarding their population and there is academics who acknowledge this. It is not about what you or I think, it's about facts (if that make sense). The point is that we should be objective here, we need to show both sides of the spectrum. Turco85 (Talk) 15:09, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Furthermore, I would appreciate it if you show me sources stateing what is "highly unreliable". Your views are not reliable enough to judge what is right or wrong...we should only be discussing the issue with sources and not our own point of view.Turco85 (Talk) 15:15, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

As for your comment about Iraqi Turkmen making up 80,000 in Kirkuk in 1957... you seem to be forgetting that the total population of Iraq at the time was 6.3 million (which means that Iraqi Turkmens living in Kirkuk alone made up or 1.26% of Iraq's total population) whereas today the Iraqi population is 30 million. So if we were to take your comment on board, Iraqi Turkmen would make up about 378,000 in Kirkuk alone today. Turco85 (Talk) 15:22, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

300,000-400,000 in greater kirkuk (see Disputed territories of Iraq) plus some 200-300 thousands elsewhere mounting to 600,000-700,000 makes much sense. The only side pushing for the 3,000,000 figure is Turkmen parties backed by Turkey. Take a look at WP:COMMONSENSE and WP:DUE to see why their view shouldn't be mentioned.--Rafy talk 15:45, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I think it's also worth mentioning other acedmics as well. For example, Captain Travis Patriquin has stated, in 2007, that in Tal Afar Iraqi Turkmen make up almost 100% of the 250,000 inhabitants [3]. Nonetheless, assuming that your figures are correct, there are still academics such as Scott Taylor who stated in 2004 that they made up 2,080,000 out of a total population of 25 million inhabitants and Patrick Clawson who suggests that they make up 9% of the total population (as does the 1957 census). Surely it is important that this is mentioned? I would understand your concern if I was to list a bunch of Turkish sources here, but these notable academics surely show that there is a wide arguement about the "true" population. If you feel very strongly about the UNPO I am willing to compromise by not including that in...but we should still include Taylor and Clawson (as well as Jenkins who states the 500,000-800,000 figure).Turco85 (Talk) 16:16, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I also think it's worth mentioning David L. Phillips, he states the following:

"Behind the Arabs and the Kurds, Turkmen are the third largest ethnic group in Iraq. The ITF claim Turkmen represent 12% of Iraq’s population. In response, the Kurds point to the 1997 census, which showed that there were only 600,000 Turkmen."

What this quote shows is that even if the Turkmen are not as large a number as they state, the 1997 census (which is considered by the International Crisis Group to have lowered the numbers) still showed the Turkmen at 600,000 out of a total population of 22,017,983 (or 2.72%). Thus, if we take into consideration today's 30 million it would be at least 826,868 (though we should not forget that Saddam's census is considered to have actually lowered their numbers in favour of the Arabs). Turco85 (Talk) 16:56, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

As someone with inside knowledge of the region I have to disagree with you regarding Tel Afar, it may have had a Tukmen majority but it is currently predominantly Sunni Arab (Dulaimi tribes) due to the Arabisation campaigns in the 70s and 80s, hence the fierce Sunni insurgency by the way. The total number of Turkmen in Nineveh shouldn't exceed 100,000. The 1997 figures are probably tempered with but there is no way in knowing their real numbers.

There are many Arab tribes which are probably descended from Koyunlu and other pre-Ottoman Turkic tribes, Gaylani, Qara Ghulli, and Qara Bulli are few examples, they are however fully Arabised and indistinguishable from other Arab tribes.--Rafy talk 20:40, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of our own personal opinions, we must acknowledge the fact that there is a true debate about the number of Iraqi Turkmen; thus, we must try and be objective as well as neutral. The current version of the demographics section is not neutral. I have no problem with showing the CIA estimates as well as the lowered figures given by Kurdish groups; however, we must also show that there are other estimates that state otherwise that the population of the Iraqi Turkmen is much higher (whether you or I agree with it or not). I would appreciate it if you write up an example of a small paragraph here in which you think it should be written. You have already seen the paragraph which I propose above; hopefully we can come to some sort of compromise and make the demographics section more balanced. Turco85 (Talk) 00:33, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Rafy, I'm still waiting for a response from you. If you do not propose your suggestions here soon, I will be editing the demographics section again soon. I've been waiting almost 2 months now...Turco85 (Talk) 13:55, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Sorry I was somehow confused this discussion with the one at talk:Iraqi people. I also have no problem with numbers of Turkmen given by partisan sources as long as they are presented as "non-neutral partisan" somewhere not in the infobox. You might understand my concerns shown in a similar discussion connected with Arabs in Turkey.--Rafy talk 17:42, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Well my proposal was the paragraph which I have already written above. I have been waiting for you to write a proposal so we can see were we can compromise. Basically, I have been trying to give you an oppurtunity to place some input here, I don't want to be edit warring. Would you be happy with the paragraph if I merely removed the Unrepresented Nations and Peoples Organization? Here is a little re-touch:

According to the Central Intelligence Agency, Iraq's population is made up of 75%-80% Arabs, 15%-20% Kurds, and 5% Turkoman, Assyrian, or other. However, according to the 1957 Iraqi census, which is recognized as the last reliable census, as later censuses were reflections of the Arabization policies of the Ba’th regime, Arabs formed the largest ethnicity followed by Kurds (13%) and Iraqi Turkmen (9%). Subsequent censuses, in 1967, 1977, 1987 and 1997, are all considered highly unreliable, due to suspicions of regime manipulation. The population of the Iraqi Turkmens is of much heated debate in Iraq, the figure mostly referred to by Kurdish groups and Western scholars is that Iraqi Turkmen make up 2-3% of the Iraqi population, or approximately 500,000-800,000; however, not all Western scholars accept this view, for example, Scott Taylor suggested that the Iraqi Turkmen accounted for 2,080,000 (or 8.5%) of Iraq's inhabitants in 2004 whilst Patrick Clawson has stated that the Iraqi Turkmen make up about 9% of the total population. Turco85 (Talk) 13:32, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Freedom?

Should we say something about how the war is over now in the intro section...? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.54.221.0 (talk) 23:44, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Probably, Just do it.--Rafy talk 00:08, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Present government

There is little or nothing in this article describing the present government of the country, or the power-sharing arrangements between the various ethnic groups. hgilbert (talk) 13:27, 17 January 2012 (UTC)