Talk:Israeli–Palestinian conflict

i concur with the bias accusation, and furthermore, it is outdated

The article is clearly biased, favoring Israel. this sentence :"Since mid-June 2007, Israel's primary means of dealing with security concerns in the West Bank has been to cooperate with and permit United States-sponsored training, equipping, and funding of the Palestinian Authority's security forces, which with Israeli help have largely succeeded in quelling West Bank supporters of Hamas" appears under "Israeli security concerns", but neglects to mention the Israeli invasion of Palestine, blockade, border fence etc. Under Israeli Occupation/ Settlement of West Bank, no mention is made of the Flotilla incident, the laws forcing Palestinians to pay for demolition of their own homes, Palestinian refugee camps, etc. Additionally, a quote from Hamas is included which gives the impression that Palestinians uniformly oppose the peace process on religious grounds. There is no mention of the deaths as a result of Israel's blockade, and the widespread international criticism of the occupation is played down, represented by only a quote from a human rights organization. In the section on rocket attacks, it is not made clear that the rockets fired at Israel do not contain explosive heads and as such act as large bullets more so than bombs. I sincerely hope this bias is apparent to anyone seeking information on this issue and that the wikipedia community will undertake the necessary steps to eliminate this overt bias.

Beleca (talk) 10:36, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Israeli invasion of Palestine??? Laws forcing Palestinians to pay for the demolition of their own homes??? Oh yeah, the rockets are clearly harmless, as a matter of fact it's a big game, which the big bad Israeli kids just don't wanna play with the innocent peaceful Palestinians. Better have reliable sources for your conspir... sorry, claims. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 18:12, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Your comment was clearly out of line. It only helps to solidify bias which is why this issue is "complex." The facts on this issue are very basic and clear, far clearer than many historical conflicts. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.38.147.144 (talk) 21:01, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

What happened to NPOV?

I see multiple paragraphs and pictures of Palestinian attacks on Israel but no pictures and virtually no text on Israeli bombings of Palestinians

Needs to be edited to restore the Neutral Point of view(NPOV). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.5.141.3 (talk) 10:38, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

Anyone who actually reads the article will quickly dismiss this complaint as untrue. --GHcool (talk) 16:53, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

This article is clearly biased in favour of Israel. You would have to blind to not see that. It's full of content on Palestinian attacks etc. and contains none/very little information on the Israeli attacks on Palestine for example the Flotilla raid in May 2010 in which 9 men were killed and many more injured; an event which received widespread condemnation. All the pictures are of Palestinian attacks and none of the Israeli misdemeanour's. It's amazing that this article is allowed be so biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.100.219.2 (talk) 21:35, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Outdated Map

Palestine looks like that now: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/palestine/images/oslo-map1.gif Of course the image is bad, it might be good to get a better one, but make some research in serious papers (most likely non-israeli ones if you want NPOV) and you'll find that palestinians territories are now islands surrounded by Israeli control zones, or walls, or both. This has to be put on paper, and is perfectly NPOV. But if you want, in addition, to get a better article, you can also write that Israel is already (or will very very soon be), demographicaly talking, an arab state, and that only apartheid-like measures prevent them to get rid of that dumb "Pure Jewish State" fantasy that has already cost so much lives for nothing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.137.37.99 (talk) 00:39, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

So... another excuse for multiple reverts?

What's wrong with From Time Immemorial as a source for the existence of not-so-insignificant Arab immigration to pre-Israel Palestine, other than "it tips the scale away from the myth that all Arabs, who call themselves Palestinians, have allegedly lived in the area for centuries"? Where's your POV now, Sean? Hearfourmewesique (talk) 17:20, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Whats wrong with using discredited propaganda as a source in an encyclopedia article? Really? The scholarly literature is filled with demonstrations of the execrable nature of that "source". Try this somewhere else, it wont fly here. nableezy - 17:23, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

I haven't read it. I have no opinion about it. I am aware that many people do not regard as a reliable source. So, you should take it to WP:RSN and explain exactly what you want to add and what the source says and see what the community thinks. My POV is non-existent and irrelevant. Sean.hoyland - talk 17:27, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Discredited propaganda? By whom? Hearfourmewesique (talk) 17:29, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Pretty much everyone aside from the Israeli MFA, Alan Dershowitz and Joan Peters, herself. -asad (talk) 17:35, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

It's funny because here are a little more names that support the book as credible, and there is a surprising balance between that and the negative reviews. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 17:43, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

You can read Yehoshua Porath's review in the NY Review of Books, or this one in the London Review of Books. You can find Albert Hourani calling it worthless and ludicrous. There is literally a a huge number of reviews on this book that denounce it as a poor attempt at rehashing tired propaganda. The Wikipedia article is crap, mostly due to a committed fan of Peters' ensuring that it remains that way. nableezy - 17:45, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Big words for someone who openly (on their user page) declares hirself as a devout anti-Zionist and ensures that certain articles remain a certain way, as part of a group of editors that always seem to back each other up when it comes to reverting additions that are not anti-Israeli in their inclination, as well as stalking the tiniest 1RR violation to consequently report it to ArbCom, thus making sure their view prevails. Fairness, anyone? Hearfourmewesique (talk) 17:53, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Um, okay? nableezy - 19:04, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok, now that you have gotten that out of your system. Please read the rebuttals of Joan Peters' fraud and don't take our word for it. -asad (talk) 17:59, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

All of those are just blanket praises of the book, and seeing those names isn't exactly surprising. Anyways, it is one thing to praise the book, it is another thing to defend it against its fraudulent rewrite of history. -asad (talk) 17:49, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with "getting it out of my system". Too many editors have mastered the art of NPOV abuse, also known as WP:Civil POV pushing, and it's up to other editors (such as myself) to call out on your their bull$#!+ from time to time. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 18:02, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Good luck with that. nableezy - 19:04, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Ok, after you finish calling me out on my "bullshit", please read the rebuttals. -asad (talk) 18:10, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

So... back to the question at hand (whether or not the Palestinian population before the formation of Israel was partially immigrant). Instead of going in circles for the great witch hunt, how about this? How about this collection of quotes from Palestinian leaders, acknowledging that Palestinians are in fact migrants from neighboring countries? How about this? This article cites all its sources. Back to the book... this review states that "Professor Porath asserts this but he does not provide the evidence necessary to convince a reader", "facts[...]will not be established by heaping scorn on Miss Peters" and also calls for "critics [to] go beyond polemics and actually prove her thesis wrong." Hearfourmewesique (talk) 18:38, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

You may want to reconsider using such "sources" to prove your point. By doing so you, rather blatantly, discredit your view. A collection of random websites or an essay in a non peer-reviewed MEQ by an economics professor are not anywhere close to being reliable sources for the subject. Experts in the field were nearly uniform of their denouncement of From Time Immemorial as being a poor attempt at presenting propaganda as though it were fact. nableezy - 19:04, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

nableezy - you really need to chill out, i think. this is very aggresive behavior for an editor. it is on this page and several others. just be civil. please. in any case, it is clear that while controversy surrounds this source, it is nonetheless quite acceptable. so, now, we will offer the nableezy compromise: partially-immigrant, according to the controversial book from time.... Soosim (talk) 06:52, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Uh no, From Time Immemorial is discredited propaganda, and no editor that is at all serious about being a part of an encyclopedia would even think of using such a crap source. That isnt an acceptable "compromise", that book is not a reliable source. Nothing in what I wrote on this page is uncivil, and if you want to show yourself as principled you would consider directing that comment to the person who wrote the inane screeds above. nableezy - 14:39, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Can you provide evidence to support the statement "it is clear that while controversy surrounds this source, it is nonetheless quite acceptable". I don't understand the basis of that statement with respect to Wikipedia's mandatory policies regarding sources. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:13, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

The source in question has been thoroughly discredited, AFAIK even the author has never tried to defend it since its flaws became public. Anyone who thinks it an appropriate source either knows nothing about Wikipedia's policy on sourcing, namely WP:V, or shouldn't be editing in the topic area. Gatoclass (talk) 09:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

sean - it fits wp:rs 2.1, 4.2, and it certainly isn't 3.1. so, what's the issue? just use a qualifier like everything else written in the arab israeli conflict genre. Soosim (talk) 12:25, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Not anywhere close. It is not a piece of scholarship and the academic community has largely rejected the book as tired propaganda. nableezy - 14:39, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

nope - that is your opinion (and others), but not everyone's. there are plenty of prominent scholars who agree, and who disagree. let it ride. Soosim (talk) 15:37, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

That isnt true. There arent plenty of prominent scholars who regard Peters' book as anything other than trash. The book has been shown, repeatedly, to distort source material, to ignore pertinent information, and to pass on already refuted propaganda. I question the good faith of anybody who attempts to use such a source. We are not here to propagate the myths and half-truths that one can find googling some phrase. We are charged with seeking out the best sources. This "source" is not that. When you attempt to use such crap in an article you betray your motivation as not seeking to create a "neutral" reference but to fill a supposed encyclopedia article with your favored groups propaganda. nableezy - 15:52, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

well, did you see | this? about a dozen prominent scholars, authors and others. not sure why you say otherwise. (and yes, there is the flip side, but the point here is that there are two sides. one. two. Soosim (talk) 17:55, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

The merits of the book have been serious challenged and discounted, none of those people are answering those challenges. They are just two or three line reviews that authors fish for when releasing a book. I would be surprised to see if any of those people who gave the good book a review before Finkelstein's criticism came out would still, to this day, stand by it 100%. It would be tantamount to career suicide. -asad (talk) 18:15, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Most of those people arent prominent scholars, and nearly every one of any consequence is from a review prior to its being exposed as a fraud. nableezy - 18:01, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Wow... I cited four sources that point to Arab immigration to pre-Israel Palestine during yishuv regardless of the book issue, yet no one responded to that properly. So... here's a question for nableezy, Sean and asad: are you denying that such immigration occurred? Hearfourmewesique (talk) 05:07, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Eh ? Why are you asking me questions ? Yes, I believe all Arabs in the Land of Israel are immigrants and should be expelled. In fact, ultimately, everyone there can be traced back to the East African rift valley area so perhaps everyone should be expelled. Now, having got that out of the way, back to the matter at hand. Your sources are low quality. Can you not see that ? Please, please, please only use high quality sources in this topic area. The sanctions say that we have to utilize reliable sources for contentious or disputed assertions". Everyone's time is wasted when you bring unsuitable sources. Sean.hoyland - talk 05:38, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I actually did respond. Up above where I wrote A collection of random websites or an essay in a non peer-reviewed MEQ by an economics professor are not anywhere close to being reliable sources for the subject. You brought a collection of blogs and random websites, along with a paper by an economics professor, to back your assertion. Those arent reliable sources. nableezy - 06:06, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Out of curiosity, are you guys arguing that "partially immigrant" is incorrect, or are you giving him a hard time about the source for the sake of giving him a hard time, while challenging something you know to be true? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 10:05, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Just out of curioisity, do you actually think that the very first sentence of this article should introduce the Arab population as partially-immigrant? How about introducing the Zionist yishuv as European or invading? Arab immigration to Palestine was negligible, and putting, as the very first description of the Arab population that they were partially-immigrant is a blatant POV push that I cant honestly believe anybody is defending. nableezy - 14:22, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Sean – watch your tone, Mr. Neutral. "Eh ? Why are you asking me questions ? Yes, I believe all Arabs in the Land of Israel are immigrants and should be expelled." Uhm... no, I asked if you deny that there was an Arab immigration, thus putting the Jewish and Arabic population into a teeny weeny more of a correct proportion. Quit putting incriminating words in my mouth at once.

Nableezy – one of the "blogs" cites dated newspaper articles as its sources, would you like to verify it? Go ahead, I can also do it myself later. The economics professor is still a professor, whose writings are as much a WP:RS as any other source. And... just out of curiosity, why do you think the first paragraph of Palestinian People should present Gaza and the West Bank as "Israeli-occupied"? Is that not a POV push? How are these two any different? Hearfourmewesique (talk) 18:06, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Watch my tone ? Oh for fuck's sake. Do not ask me questions about my personal opinions about anything on this talk page. The place to find answers is in reliable sources, not unreliable sources, reliable sources, which can then be discussed here. If you do ask me anymore questions about my personal opinions I will say exactly what I want. So, if you don't want that to happen, don't ask. Sean.hoyland - talk 18:30, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

This is getting more and more ridiculous by the minute. It isnt a "POV" that the Palestinian territories are "Israeli-occupied", and the attempt to equate the two issues is rather bizarre. An economics professor writing in a non-peer reviewed journal on an area outside of his expertise is not a reliable source for the topic. Your attempts at twisting the policies of the website into supporting what the plainly do not will not succeed. You bring garbage sources and discredited propaganda and demand that we accede to your demands on what the article should say. Sorry, but that wont fly. nableezy - 18:46, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

So why not concentrate on the real reason you object to this rather than have a silly discussion about the sources? Even if he brought an impeccable source you'd still not agree, so wouldn't it be preferable to cut to the chase? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:27, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

If he brought an impeccable source I may or may not disagree with including that as the first description of the Palestinian Arabs, but I would likely be amenable to including it in the body. But he hasnt brought an impeccable source, so I dont see why I should imagine what my response would be if he did so. What he did was bring crap to add crap to the very first sentence of the article. nableezy - 21:30, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Hearfourmewesique, with reference to your comment of 17:53, 5 December 2011 (UTC), have you read WP:NPA?     ←   ZScarpia   23:11, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I have, and calling an editor on their unruly behavior is not a personal attack. See, if you read WP:Civil POV pushing, this is exactly the kind of reaction that is expected from editors that behave in such a way. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 03:29, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Sean, now that you've got that out of your system (or have you?), I wasn't asking for an opinion on a philosophical matter, I was asking if you deny a historical fact that a certain number of Arabs migrated to Palestine after Zionists began settling previously uninhabited land.

Nableezy – didn't quite get the difference between "partially-immigrant Arab population" and "Israeli-occupied territories" as far as POV goes. I'm also opening a sub-paragraph and nominating a new book. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 04:14, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

New sources proposal

OK, so here's the deal.

1. This article by a professor from University of Illinois cites 43 sources, all verifiable, all reputable and can surely be considered WP:RS.
2. This is a book by Aaron Klein, doesn't seem to have been disputed as "deceitful propaganda", has nothing but good reviews. This is "just some guy" who organized the relevant quotes from that book, naturally – all verifiable.

So... can we accept these sources and move on please? Hearfourmewesique (talk) 04:14, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Wow. A book published by WND Books by an author of WorldNetDaily fame and a non peer-reviewed journal article by a professor in a completely unrelated field? Sorry, but no, these arent reliable sources. Just for comparison, here are several sources that discuss Arab immigration as a significant factor in Arab population growth in Palestine:

• Tessler, Mark (1994), A History of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Indiana University Press, p. 211, ISBN 9780253208736, http://books.google.com/books?id=3kbU4BIAcrQC&pg=PA211 

  The significance of the discrepancy lies, in part, in its implications for competing claims about Arab and Jewish rights in Palestine, with some supporters of Zionism asserting that heavy Arab immigration undermines the Arabs' claim to be the indigenous population of Palestine. Israeli as well as Palestinian scholars have disputed this assertion, however, concluding that it as at best a theory and in all probability a myth. As expressed by a highly respected Israeli analyst, who writes in direct response to Zionist arguments about large-scale Arab immigration, "one cannot escape the conclusion that most of the growth of the Palestinian Arab community resulted from a process of natural increase."

• Christison, Kathleen (2001), Perceptions of Palestine: their influence on U.S. Middle East policy, University of California Press, p. 49, ISBN 9780520217188, http://books.google.com/books?id=5hesBrK0vbcC&pg=PA49 

  According to British demographic statistics, Jewish immigration from 1920 through 1938, totaling 306,049, was more than ten times the level of Arab immigration, which totaled 23,407.

• Metzer, Jacob (1998), The divided economy of mandatory Palestine, Cambridge University Press, p. 31, ISBN 9780521465502, http://books.google.com/books?id=OdEryYxCKTMC&pg=PA31 

  This number (8.5 percent in total Arab growth ...) may thus be interpreted as an upper bound estimate of net Arab miigration, but even this does not alter the picture of a community whose growth was driven primarily by natural increase

  Note that Metzer includes in his 49000 net increase 12000 due to border changes, not immigration

So no, we cant accept those "sources" you brought. Actual scholarly work directly disputes it. nableezy - 04:49, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I thought you liked to call these types of "arguments" ad hominem – do not digress please. It does not matter what field that professor majored in, it matters that he cited 43 sources that are all verifiable and can be considered WP:RS according to Wikipedia standards. As for the book – comment on the content, not the opinion you and your peers might have about the publishing body. And please, quit bringing sources that regurgitate that same article by Porath, it's getting old already. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 16:28, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Uhh no, saying that an author and publisher do not meet the requirements of WP:RS is not an ad hominem, at least not in the sense that it is a fallacious argument on Wikipedia. The sources I brought are in books published by university presses. Those are reliable sources per WP:RS. That the economics professor cited his sources does not magically make the source "reliable", reliability is determined by the reputation of the publisher, or, barring a solid reputation, the expertise of the author. MEQ was not peer-reviewed at the time of that paper, and the author is not at all an expert in the field. If you would like to use Mr. Gottheil in an economics article by all means feel free. Here however he is not a reliable source. That you think that it does not matter the publisher or the fact that the author has no expertise in the field demonstrates that you have either not read or not understood WP:RS. Ill quote the relevant portions for you: Reliable sources may be published materials with a reliable publication process, authors who are regarded as authoritative in relation to the subject, or both. Later, When available, academic and peer-reviewed publications, scholarly monographs, and textbooks are usually the most reliable sources. And in WP:V: Any exceptional claim requires high-quality sources. The sources you brought are of low quality. They are directly refuted by the academic sources by authors with actual expertise in the topic. nableezy - 16:37, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

OK, so is it OK to use Gottheil's cited sources independently? Assuming, of course, that we verify them, of course... Also, nowhere does it say that peer-reviewed is a requirement, only a preference. Oh wait... the Wikipedia article does refer to MEQ as peer reviewed, doesn't it count that it has been since 2009? (Please cite a policy in your answer.) As for Aaron Klein, who is a veteran Middle-Eastern correspondent, why are you not accepting his book as a reliable source? Hearfourmewesique (talk) 22:52, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

If whatever Gottheil used is a reliable source you can use it as such. However, at the time of the article MEQ was not peer reviewed and did not have anything close to a good reputation. As far as a book by Aaron Klein published by WND, please. No serious editor should consider using such a crap source in an encyclopedia article. The fact remains that several actually reliable sources directly contradict what your collection of unreliable sources claim, and that is what counts. nableezy - 21:48, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Dude, you've reached your foul language limit for today as far as I'm concerned. Unless you can back up your repeated "crap source" remarks, I will take you to ANI and if I do, this will not be my only evidence of your systematically unruly behavior. This is your last chance for (truly) civil communication. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 15:53, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

If you would like to take me to ANI for calling WND Books a crap source you are more than welcome to do so. You are attempting to cite to WND what several expert authors have written in sources published by academic presses directly refute. So, dude, do whatever you feel like doing. nableezy - 16:56, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

They don't "directly refute" it, they keep sticking to the British published figures, ignoring the other aspects. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 17:55, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Too long

Surely, SURELY this article is about 10 miles too long. Can't we break it up into multiple articles? People just want to read about the conflict in general, they don't want a blow-by-blow account.

It's a huge job and I don't understand the subject enough to do it myself but if you could, it would be great. Cheers. --109.145.117.119 (talk) 18:29, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Amendment Required

"Many Palestinians nowadays believe that Israel is not really interested in reaching an arrangement, but rather interested in continuing to control the entire territory from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River". This is unverified and patently incorrect as, currently, Israel clearly does not control "the entire territory from the Mediterranean Sea to the Jordan River", as the West Bank is under the political jurisdiction of the Palestinian National Authority and Gaza is governed by the Hamas goverment. AnkhMorpork (talk) 20:06, 1 February 2012 (UTC)