Talk:January Events (Lithuania)

Old talk

On looking at the intro, I see that the author apparently envisages Wikipedia as a sort of the Lithuanian nationalist propaganda machine. Please grow up. Once you start pushing your POV and describing the actions of the central administration towards a region as "aggression", the answer will follow promptly, sometime symmetrical, sometimes not. --Ghirla | talk 15:23, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Alright, I have changed it to actions. What else? Renata 15:29, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

After the title was NPOVed, I removed the tags. Now it needs to be proofread and grammar improved. --Ghirla | talk 15:43, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Ok then. Aggression, however, might be used by the central government against regions seeking independence - be it Iraqi Kurdistan in late 80s, Palestine, etc. DeirYassin 15:51, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Title

Both of you! Let's talk! Renata 15:42, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

So the title. I agree massacre is not good. Incindent is not good either. January events are way too generic. Let's calmly think of something useful and NPOV. Renata 15:46, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

FYI, New York Times called it "VILNIUS CRACKDOWN." I suggest something like Vilnius events of January 13, 1991. But then again, it was not only Vilnius. Mostly, but not only. Renata 15:51, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the current name is ok. In the Lithuanian language it is commonly reffered to as "Sausio įvykiai" (January Events) as well; or it can be "1991 January events" for it to be more distinctive. DeirYassin 15:58, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I support DY here. Our Polish friends have no gripes about styling minor skirmishes the January Uprising or November Uprising, as if these were the only important uprisings in human history. So let the article stay where it is. --Ghirla | talk 16:06, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Lithuania is small and everyone knows Jan 13. Now here we need to indicate that this is about Lithuania, and mostly Vilnius. I would never look for it under generic January Events. It has to have either Vilnius or Lithuania in the title. Uprising example does not convince me. If Poles did something arguable, it does not mean we have to repeat it, does it :) ? And I remember someone complaining about Temporary capital as being too generic. And, well, it got actually moved.

Side note, I wanted to write this article for a very long time. I did not do it because I could not choose a decent title :) Renata 16:17, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

What about January Events (Lithuania)? --Ghirla | talk 16:23, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Why use () when we have prepositions? :) I prefer natural language titles, i.e. January Events of Lithuania. Renata 16:51, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

And let's be more specific - January 1991 Events of Lithuania. Renata 16:53, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Might be as you suggest, might be a Lithuanian title Sausio įvykiai (analogy with Ukrainian title for Holodomor), though I wouldn't like such solution much. But, as you have said, it is hard to find a good title - probably impossible to find such a title that would actually be searched for, so most of readers for this article will anyways come from various links rather than direct searches I guess. And we still can create redirects. DeirYassin 22:22, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

"January Events" ("janvāra notikumi") is also a common term in Latvian for both the Vilnius events and the related events in Latvia at the time. Perhaps this article might be expanded to include the latter? --Pēteris Cedriņš 23:23, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

I have to say, it is a very neat idea. It is all related. Renata 02:10, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm glad you agree -- if nobody objects, I will soon try to add the "January events" here. As this is a subject we share, I want to point to another article that needs a lot of work and should cover all three Baltic States -- Singing Revolution. I rather wonder whether it wouldn't be better to change the title to Baltic Revolution, as in the title of Anatol Lieven's well-known book. To avoid too much overlap, an expanded article could focus on what was done through cooperation, comparisons and contrasts, aftermath (e.g., the Baltic Assembly [1], which doesn't even have an article...). --Pēteris Cedriņš 03:40, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

I don't think that a couple of demonstrations may be termed a revolution. Don't be ridiculous, such a title would only spawn move wars. --Ghirla | talk 09:59, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, revolution means such a change of government when policies are completely reversed, which was the case in the Baltic States at the time. And after all we have Orange Revolution, Rose Revolution and such articles - those revolutions were also similar. DeirYassin 10:05, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

The definition of revolution is rather broad, and the Singing Revolution is already included in the list of "Eastern European anti-Communist/anti-dictatorship revolutions"; it very obviously consisted of much more than "a couple of demonstrations" and was a major factor in the collapse of the USSR. It's my impression that the once popular descriptive term "Singing Revolution" is falling out of use, whilst Lieven's (dated and somewhat tendentious) book has become something of a standard text on the subject -- see, for example Google Scholar. "Singing Revolution" brings up many relevant results, too, but it can also be mistaken for a musical term... --Pēteris Cedriņš 12:48, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

OK, "Singing Revolution", "Dancing Revolution", "Laughing Revolution", "Orange Revolution", "Banana Revolution"... People who use these terms have very limited understanding of what revolution is all about. Even "rising" or "uprising" (like January Uprising and November Uprising) is a more appropriate term in the context. --Ghirla | talk 12:57, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

And I think of these "revolutions" as having a sense of humor. Singing revolution is a very common term, not that much in Lithuania, but Estonia. I don't know if it is becoming less used. Renata 13:27, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Photo request

Speaks for itself. Thank you.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus ^Talk 01:11, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

Neutrality disputed (recommended)

Looking at the article, I just cannot say that it is written in a neutral way. It is definitely very biased. I would recommend putting "Neutrality is disputed" banner at the top of the page. In addition, "January events" should be a disambiguation page. There have been awfully lot of events happened on January. This event is not the only one. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dimacq (talk • contribs) 1 August 2007

Agree with this report, at least we need to cite some controversies from former Defense Minister of Lithuania A. Butkyavichus:

F.e. you can see controversy it in Russian Wiki: http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D0%BE%D0%B1%D1%8B%D1%82%D0%B8%D1%8F_%D0%B2_%D0%92%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D1%8E%D1%81%D0%B5_%281991%29#cite_note-9 I don't know who is right here, but there is no good in ignoring that claims:

In the materials of a series of interviews weekly "Obzor" for April-July 2000 [16], former Defense Minister of Lithuania A. Butkyavichus speaks to them and preparing provocations V. Landsbergis, a wider Sajudis, a KGB agent in its ranks.

Here is Russian news where Butkyavichus speaks about this event as a well planned action with predictable results. http://www.regnum.ru/news/polit/1369522.html

Using translate.google.com

• Speaking April 14, 2000 in the Russian weekly television program "Week", Petkyavichyus said that "from the roofs of neighboring houses to the assembled crowd in the tower shot our" savanorisy "(translated from Lithuanian - Volunteers - IA REGNUM). This completely refutes the official version, according to which the January 13, 1991 Lithuanian citizens in the tower were killed by the bullets of troops of the Soviet Army and the collision of the Soviet armored vehicles. But the Lithuanian justice once again did not hear that statement.

• Lithuanian investigators also chose not to notice published in a 2003 book Pyatkyavichusa "Ship of Fools." It was written: "The conscience of Landsbergis and A. Butkyavichusa victim nights thirteenth day of January, as one came up and ordered another several dozen guards were dressed and kept out of the TV tower. It was they who fired down into the crowd ... I am with my own eyes seen when near my feet from the asphalt ricocheting bullets bounced off. " (P. 78).

• In an interview on "review" (14. 10. 2002) Petkyavichus told how he found out that people in the tower shot Lithuanian border guards. It turns out in 1993, all 18 guards came to the Diet to Petkyavichyusu complaining about the fact that they have deleted from the lists of participants in the events of January 13. "They told me that their boss Chesnulyavichus with a gun in his hand to put all the wall and said that if they are at least one word hint that they were on the TV tower - with them it is finished!" Ytro.ru
• There are also other evidence to support the involvement of militants Sajudis "to the January death of the victims. So, at the time of court hearing the case of the former leader of "Unity" Ivanov, in a criminal case there was testimony that, for almost an hour until a television tower near the Soviet paratroopers, in the darkness under the bushes "were lying on the ground the bodies of men .

• We also know that in 1 hour and 10 minutes the night on Jan. 13, 1991 from the windows of the building of the Supreme Council of the Republic of Lithuania Algimantas Kane priest began serving Mass for the victims of the Soviet army, starting it with the words: "They are the first sacrifices". At the same time, we know that the column with the paratroopers emerged from the tower at 1:00. 50 min. On the first victim was known in only 2 hours and 30 minutes. " *

50.53.48.197 (talk) 01:04, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Support meetings

During the following day, meetings of support took place in many cities (Kiev, Riga, Tallinn). The meeting in Riga was scheduled on 12 January, before attack on TV Tower, to support Latvian governmet, while I haven't learned if the theme of demonstration was or not fully changed, this sentence should be reworded otherwise it implies that this was spontaneous act of support ---- Xil/talk 19:50, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Merge and/or integrate very differently

In my view, January 1991 events in Latvia and this article should be merged. They're inextricably linked. --Pēteris Cedriņš (talk) 17:41, 12 January 2008 (UTC)