Talk:Jat people

Edit Request on Military Culture of the Jats, and their Origin

"According to Barbara D. Metcalf and Thomas R. Metcalf:

Upstart warriors, Marathas, Jats, and the like, as coherent social groups with military and governing ideals, were themselves a product of the Mughal context, which recognized them and provided them with military and governing experience. Their successes were a part of the Mughal success.[10]"

Fowler&Fowler, can I kindly suggest that you also provide an opposing academic view of your point, and not only the point which you wish to portray (whether due to bias or not), as we are both aware, they're are alot of historians on India and Jats, and not all of them share the same view:

• 1* According to many sources, the Jats independantly defended Mahmud of Ghazni's attempt to conquer India (or rather, cross to the opposite bank of the indus). Thus it can be concluded that they already had a fairly strong federal military organization of some sort to defend from a Sassanid Emperor.

Sources: The Pearson CSAT Manual 2011 By Edgar Thorpe, Showick Thorpe The Cambridge Shorter History of India

• 2* And the fact that Rajputs and Jats are almost always found inhabiting the same geographic area, share the same (martial) culture, and even the same "gotras", many historians conclude they share the same lineage or racial ancestry (i.e. Scythian tribes Messagetae and Getae), not to mention that the culture itself resembles that of the Scythians (i.e. buffalo sacrifice and worship of the lunar/solar gods or the martial god/goddess):

Sources: A glossary of the tribes and castes of the Punjab and North-West, H.A. Rose Structure and Change in Indian Society By Milton Singer, Bernard S. Cohn Al-Hind: the slave kings and the Islamic conquest, By André Wink — Preceding unsigned comment added by JagNatha (talk • contribs) 20:49, 12 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JagNatha (talk • contribs)

this also applys to varna status as it coccludes that jatts were kshatryas (Wiki00756 (talk)) —Preceding undated comment added 17:45, 14 November 2011 (UTC).

who removed indo aryan origion of jats,and there is also not much written about their culture like their folk dance bhangra,their game kabbadi,hocky,their food etc. i also request the removal of the picture jats in the vincity of delhi as it only shows some villagers not jats!and there are 6 pictures from one book it looks as online version of the book we need some more reliable and good pictures.

more info about sikh states we need to write more about sikh states and emperors as maharaja ranjit singhs army was the only army in the history of the whole world who defeated the brave pathans who were more in number and jats were very less but they still defeated them.and some british scholars claimed that if hari singh nalwa general of ranjits army had lived longer and had the sources and artillery of british,he would have conqured most of asia and europe. and i dont know what it means by not well established castes in india,as at that time india was divided into many different small and big princely states and regions jats were well established in punjab,there is no one caste that can be dominant in whole of india it differs from region to region.(Wiki00756 (talk)) —Preceding undated comment added 19:15, 14 November 2011 (UTC).

Wiki00756, be bold - just remember to abide by the Five Pillars. JagNatha, from which article did you copy/paste that info above? - Sitush (talk) 19:17, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

the info is not a copy paste how can u say it is?and it has reliable source. and so what if it is copiid atleast it is true!and remember we are not here to fight orr show that we can write better articles,if u are editing an article then write it fairly.ad dont rely only on 1 or 2 books for sources!and dont insult any person or community!and sitush to abide by 5 pillars goes for u as well.(Wiki00756 (talk))

JagNatha's opening statement sure looks like a copy/paste to me ("[10]") & although it refers to 2 people called Metcalf there does not appear to be a source. AS for "so what if it is a copyvio", well, if that is your attitude then perhaps it would be best if you do not contribute here. Although I did not myself use that term, copy/pasting even from one article to the next is against the terms of our license unless attributed, as that (+ the lack of details re: the Metcalfs) is why I asked the question. As for insults, hm. I've seen that argument before: in my experience, it is usually a last resort of those who cannot otherwise get things "their way". May I remind you that Wikipedia is not not censored. The project exists neither to make someone look good or make them look bad; it exists to present information that is verifiable using reliable sources, and to present such info in a neutral manner. - Sitush (talk) 16:15, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

but the sources are reliable and true.and we are here to discus about the article not to talk about attitude!if u have any reliable sources then u can share them.but discus only about the article rather than people.and be polite and respectfull.(Wiki00756 (talk))

Er, guys, it's a cut and paste form this article that JagNtha is commenting on. I think chill pills all round. Rich Farmbrough, 22:00, 29 November 2011 (UTC).

Its 2:16am, and I have other work to do,...but for now, let me say: I cannot believe that the current fellowship of wikipedia "article editors" cannot read through the sources themselves (which I have kindly listed), and instead are so busy trying to conclude that I am copying and pasting from a pre-written article. Do you expect me to publish a thesis on the subject? especially when such conclusions have already been made in the sources I have listed...dear God!

--JagNatha (talk) 02:24, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I finally had time to copy up the sources which regard Jats as tradionally kshatriyas, or taking on kshatriya roles in Punjab. The quotes sourced from the Al-Hind book is particularly interesting, it is obvious that the Jat history in terms of their authority in village/local-level politics hasn't been well recorded, and as most villages where any particular Jat clan resides are usually founded by their ancestors, and hence the clan holds authority of the village, as I cannot publish my personal history, or my own first-hand original research of family-tree's, I have listed the following quotes of published research which does:

Regarding common culture of Jat and Rajput, in terms of Animal Sacrifice (influence of Shaivism and Shaktism), and customs: "Near the top and politically controlling the village 100 or 500 years ago one would have found Rajput or Jat gentry sponsoring the annual sacrifice of young buffaloes, certainly themselves consuming at least eggs, chickens, and liquour, as most Jat and Rajput landlords of adjacent villages do today." Structure and Change in Indian Society, Milton Singer

"The Kedara are usually the bards of Rajputs, Gujar and Jat communities" Rajasthan: Vol 1, K.S. Singh (It is btw, common knowledge that Jat villages often have a clan of bards whom traditionally sang for the Chaudhary of the village.)

Overlap of Jat and Rajput gotra, due to similar origin, but difference is acquired tribal social status:

"The Jat indeed, as elsewhere, claims for himself Rajput origin, but a Varaich for instance does not say that he is still a Rajput. He is a Jat and content to be so. The fact is that within the pale of Sikhism Rajputs were at a discount."

"The Jats who composed the great mass of the Khalsa rose to absolute power, and the Rajput who had despised them was the peculiar object of their hatred. Their general policy led them to cut off such poppy-heads as had not sprung from their own own seed." pg 12

"The Jats of this tract are very largely if not wholly true Jats, who preserve strong traditions as to the Rajput tribes from which they claim to be descended."

Rajputs, Jats and Gurjars sharing common origin and culture:

"The Gurjaras gave dynasties to Kanauj, Ajmer, and other states and from their ruling clans are descended the mass of the modern Rajput clans."

"Gurjara family which attained to Rajput or gentle rank", "Kanets which represent those Gurjaras who did not take to warlike persuits but remained cultivators." "the Rajput (Gurjara) fighting men were accompanied by their humbler pastoral brethren."

--- A glossary of the tribes and castes of the Punjab and North-West India, H.A. Rose

Jats converting to Islam due to impact and appeal of Sufism in the extreme North West of India:

"The vast majority of the Jat and Rajput groups of the Panjab that became Muslim in medieval times claim to have converted wither by Shayk Farid ad-din Ganj-i-Shakar (d. 1265 AD), 'Baba Farid' of Pakpattan (the ancient town of Ajudhan) or by his contemporary Baha' al-Haqq Zakariya (d. 1263)" Al-Hind by Andre Wink, also mentioned in "Islam and Empire"

Jats , Rajputs and Maratha tribes being described as Kshatriya Zamindars as early as the 14th Century:

"Rajputs, as Jats, Marathas, and other gentry groups ('tribes') who henceforward were also designated by the generic term Zamindars, lit. 'landholders'..."By the fourtheenth century claims to honourable Kshatriya status were again assertively made by the leading categories of Rajputs." ibid (Al-Hind)

Jats and Rajput tribes unite with Mahmud of Ghazni to resist the Mongol invasions, whereby Khokhars also joined Mahmud, previously being aligned with the Mongols - 12th and 13th Century "By 1249 we again encounter a 'governor of Multan and Lahore' (hakim-i-multan-o-lahur), commading 20,000 chosen horse against the Mongols in Ghazna. This governor, it is specified, was appointed to 'Lahore, Multan, Bha[t]nair, Sirhind, Dipalput, and the other iqta's which were exposed to the incursions of the Mongols'. He not only dealt with the Mongols, but also brought under his control the Jats, Kokhars, Bhattis, Minas, Mandahars, and other similar tribes (tawa'if). [note Bhattis and Minhas being notable Rajput tribes, and Mandahars today being a notable Jat tribe] ibid (Al-Hind.)

Use of Chaudhary and Thakur as a Jat title:

"Thakur = North Indian term for master or lord; used commonly by Rajput and Jat castes."

The Mughal Empire By John F. Richards

"The Jat Thakur is a feudal baron who plunders by night." From the caves and jungles of Hindostan, 1883-1886, Helena Petrovna Blavatsky, Boris De Zirkoff

"Thakur" (a man of indeterminate gabut mid- level caste, usually implying a landowning caste, often Jat)” Raja Nal and the Goddess: the north Indian epic Dhola in performance By Susan Snow Wadley

"Chaudhary (as the Jats, the Gujars call themselves)", “They call themselves Chaudhries and dismiss the claim of Gujars and Araeens to this title of honour lending hierarchy.” Justice in practice: legal ethnography of a Pakistani Punjabi village

Jats as Kshatriyas: "In the local social hierarchy the Jat perceive their position at a high level and on a par with the Rajput and Brahman." Rajasthan: Volume 1 - Page 443 – K.S. Singh

"The Jats are the sole occupants of the Kshatriya varna in Badipur.", "the Gaur Brahmins stress that the Jats are Kshatriya since they are the purohit of Jats" From hierarchy to stratification: changing patterns of social inequality in a north Indian village, D.B. Miller

"The power and prestige which landowning castes command affect their relations with all castes, including those ritually higher. This is true of parts of the Punjab where the landowning Jats look upon the Brahmins as their servants, and of Madhopur village in easter Uttar Pradesh where formely the dominant Thakurs refused cooked food from all Brahmins except their gurus or religious teachers. In Rampura village in Mysore state, the Brahmin priest of the Rama tample was a figure of fun; when, at a temple festival, he tried to distribute prasara (food consecrated by being offered to the diety) to the congretion, the peasant youths gathered there teased him" , "In the south-east of the province a Hindu Jat took pride in his caste and even looked down upon a Brahmin who in that area was not a priestly caste but cultivators." Social Change in Modern India, By Mysore Narasimhachar Srinivas

[In Sikh Social Structure] "Kshatriyas are considered lower than the Jats." [due to being landless traders in the Punjab]. History Of Ancient India (portraits Of A Nation) By Kapur, Kamlesh

"Jats consider themselves to compose a category of castes along with Rajputs, Gujars, Ahirs and Sainis. They belong to the same varna or caste category: All are Kshatriyas or "rulers" sharing hereditary martial proclivities or leadership qualities.” State, Society, and human rights in South Asia by Stig Toft Madsen

" The Jat race, who followed and pushed the Rajputs farther into NW India, are eminently agricultural and pastoral" Edward Balfour

"The tasks of Rajputs and Jats, identified as Kshatriyas, is warfare and ruling." Local-level politics: social and cultural perspectives Marc J. Swartz

"It may be inferred from the above analysis that the Kshatriyas, whether Jats or Thakurs, are the "model" or "reference group" with which both the lower and the higher castes identify themselves." L. K. Bala Ratnam

"If the Kshatriya status is claimed by the Rajputs and the Khatris, the traditional role of the Kshatriyas as the fighters and owners of land has been taken over in most of the Punjab by the Jats." Proceedings, Punjab University

"Vishwanath also notes that the Jats and Ahir castes of North- Western Provinces who practiced female infanticide in the nineteenth century called themselves Rajputs and identified with the Kshatriya ideology" Female infanticide in India: a feminist cultural history, Rashmi Dube Bhatnagar, Reena Dube

"As late as 1883, Sir Denzil Ibbetson reported that caste affiliation was not important to many Jats. In Doaba they claim to be Kshatriyas,2 the warrior category of the Hindu caste system." Sikhs In England, Arthur Wesley Helweg

"Groups categorized as kshatriya have been economically and politically powerful as rulers, warriors, landlords, and farmers. In northern India, such prominent groups include Rajputs, Thakurs, and Jats" Encyclopedia of Asian History: Volume 2, Ainslie Thomas Embree

"Imperceptibly, the Scythians readily accepted for themselves the class-name "Rajput", acknowledged the Brahman for their teacher and friend and the Brahmanic temple as their religion, while the class-name "Jat" was coined for..." Discovery of Pakistan, by Abdul Aziz

"The dynamism of the west can also be explained in part by the character of the Jats and other high castes who work with their hands. The Jat area begins in the Punjab and ends in the districts immediately to the east of Delhi. Beyond this area, the high castes often observe the taboo on ploughing."

"Brahmins and Jats sit together in the same chaupal, whilst the harijans are not offered a seat" "(Jats and Thakurs smoke the same Hookah.) Studies in Indian agriculture: the art of the possible By Gilbert Étienne

JagNatha (talk) 05:45, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I am pretty confused with this wall of text. What are you actually suggesting that the article should say? A lot of the sources above look to be pretty poor, and I am concerned about original research and synthesis but we may be able to rescue something. - Sitush (talk) 05:55, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

just for information you may include it or not but just general information about jatts belive it or not

1st jats are kshatryas as rajputs both have inter marriages.and majority of sources state them as kshatryas by only one unreliable source u cannot say them shudras.btw logically also u cant call jats shudras as they were farmers and farmers were called Vaishyas!. 2nd the relationship between jats and rajputs was like america and russia during cold war as both were almost equally powerful. 3rd in punajab region jats were only dominant people. 4th jats of rajasthan are not real jats. 5th u can compare jats to romans cause just like romans jats are brave courageous and only bravest of brave became kings like that only bravest of brave jatts became kings. 6th today jats are rich and high class people and are very prosperous. 7th every one aspires to be famous and become a actor,sportsman,etc,so its not a crime if a jat is a actor.a jat may be a actor but it dosent mean that his basic characteristics have changed they always remain close to their community and some are famous for their being jat only.(Wiki00756 (talk)) —Preceding undated comment added 18:46, 14 November 2011 (UTC).

Without sources the above is utterly pointless. This page is not a forum for general discussion but rather for improvements to the article. - Sitush (talk) 16:16, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

iv provided sources before in previous disscusions,and iv written this so that other people can find sources!(Wiki00756 (talk)) —Preceding undated comment added 16:40, 16 November 2011 (UTC).(Wiki00756 (talk))

I cannot recall seeing any mention of any sources - just to pick one of your points at random - comparing Jats etc to America, Russia or the Cold War. If you did provide them then perhaps you could give me a diff, link or even date/time so that I can check them out. Thanks. - Sitush (talk) 17:24, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

Jat Polyandry

This article has nothing about widespread practice of polyandry among Jats. It is a very well recorded practice by scholars. Here are some Google Books links about it:

https://www.google.com/search?q=jat+polyandry&hl=en&prmd=imvnsbfd&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&biw=1024&bih=537&wrapid=tlif132156442743710&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbm=bks&source=og&sa=N&tab=wp

Please make a good study of this topic and include a separate section about this intersting practice among Jats. Regards

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.42.208.187 (talk) 21:14, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Populated areas etc

Is there any chance that we can have some sources for the various areas where Jats live? Or, failing that, can we not cut out the list and just say that they live "in India and elsewhere" (or some similar formula). If we are going to name specific places then presumably we need to be able to verify that they are more predominant in those areas than in other areas of the country. - Sitush (talk) 19:26, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Tagging for citations

It is my experience with Indian caste articles that we get better results when we tag for citations at the statement level rather than the section level. There are often individual statements which are WP:OR or POV but surrounded by perfectly ok statements that simply lack a source. The combination of detailed tagging and the datestamps enables these to be weeded out over a period of time. - Sitush (talk) 08:30, 2 February 2012 (UTC)