Talk:Christ myth theory

Back to basics

In an effort to get some degree of sanity back in this article I have gone with Remsburg's definition of Jesus myth theory being the "the idea that the Gospel Jesus is a myth" while also explaining "there is a large variance regarding how the Gospel Jesus is a myth resulting in the term being used to describe various concepts:"

I would like to start out the article with a "Source of confusion" per User:BruceGrubb/Christ_Myth_theory tackling the Meaning of "myth" and "mythicist" (using Remsburg), Meaning of historical (using Marshall), and Meaning of fictional (using Price) issues.

The next issue would be to start hammering out what variance the terms have and looking before Drews we do find the term Christ Myth but how it is used is interesting:

"If no such person as Jesus Christ existed, or if He were historical, but in any way failed to conform to the character given to Him in the Gospels, the evolution of the Christ-myth in the first two centuries is the greatest miracle the world ever saw." (Berdoe, Edward (1896) Browning and the Christian faith)

"The Christ myth, from which Christianity claims its name, is proved fraudulent, like thousands of other false assumptions which surround the system." (Brown, George Washington (1891) Researches in oriental history" Page 254)

These and similar examples show that as Rembsurg stated "Christ myth" had a range going from the the story of the man (historical myth) to the man himself (philosophical myth) being a myth and that some today (such as Mack) still use the term to denote historical myth. In fact as late as 1934 you have this little gem:

"But the sociological fashion reflected in the rise of Formgeschichte leads colour to Christ-myth theories and indeed to all theories that regard Jesus as an historical but insignificant figure." (Wood, Herbert George (1934) MacMillan (New York, Cambridge, [Eng.] : The University Press pg 40)

Wood clearly connects Christ-myth theories to the theories "that regard Jesus as an historical but insignificant figure" fitting Remsburg's historical myth definition perfectly.--BruceGrubb (talk) 01:48, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

this is too complicated, goes into too much detail, and is simply too much. We do not need to split hairs this finely for a good encyclopedia article, and insisting on this particular version is really bogging us down. Please reconsider. --Nuujinn (talk) 22:42, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Again, this is information already in the article--this just reorganizes it a more coherent format that what currently exist. I again point to the Rorschach test article which addresses such fine hair splitting and that article has to meet the harder WP:MEDRS requirements.

Not all topics are going to be simple or easily explained (even the more clearly defined Creationism and New Chronology (Fomenko) articles are mammoth info dumps) and we have to hold to WP:NPOV as much as WP:V and keeping WP:NPOV without cherry picking sources or engaging in the SYN fest this article had in the past. As the above sources show "Christ Myth" had a different and broader meaning before Drews--a meaning that was kept as late as 1934. We owe it to our readers to try and explain why the term Christ Myth is such a disjointed mess with writers actually arguing different points. Remsburg, Marshall and Price give us the means to do that and this all goes back to Vasal's suggestion of "Define it as a theory on how belief in Christ emerged". We are going to have to address why the term is such a disjointed mess.--BruceGrubb (talk) 07:00, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

this is information already in the article Yes, exactly, which is precisely why it need not be and indeed should not be in the lede. We owe it to our readers to try and explain why the term Christ Myth is such a disjointed mess with writers actually arguing different points. No, really, we don't, because we are writing an encyclopedia, not a scholarly work which sorts out the differences between various theorists. To do so treats the sources as primary sources and engage in our own analysis, and we should instead focus on presenting what the secondary sources say. You are correct that it is not a simple topic, but we are not in a position to tease out the fine points ourselves--for that we should rely on experts. --Nuujinn (talk) 10:49, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I again point to the Rorschach test, Creationism and New Chronology (Fomenko) articles as counter examples and add in Vampire as yet another one. I also again point to WP:NPOV as the reason for the "We owe it to our readers to try and explain why the term Christ Myth is such a disjointed mess with writers actually arguing different points" comment. Finally I again point to MOS:LEAD which states: "The lead should be able to stand alone as a concise overview. It should define the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is interesting or notable, and summarize the most important points—including any prominent controversies." You focus on the concise overview part and forget the rest--I don't--BruceGrubb (talk) 17:19, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with many of the points Nuujinn makes in the post above—especially his last, that "we should rely on experts." BruceGrubb has been trying to split hairs to such a degree that he's seeing radical disagreements between sources where none exist. Furthermore, he's being extraordinarily selective in choosing sources. The writer he wants to rely on the most, Remsberg, was not a biblical scholar, and has had absolutely no impact upon academic literature. I see no reason why he should be used in this article at all, because there are better sources available. (The lengthy discussion at Talk:Jesus_myth_theory/Archive_19#Remsberg covers these points in depth.) There are many sources on this topic written by biblical scholars—e.g. Schweitzer, Shirley Jackson Case, Robert Van Voorst, just to name a few of those who go into great detail about this topic. BruceGrubb's preferred version(s) of the lead avoids citing these sources and goes with lower-quality ones—even the academic sources he's using are ones that are less detailed, and it's pretty clear he's emphasizing these because he believes they agree with his viewpoint.

Furthermore, we really don't "owe it to our readers to try and explain why the term Christ Myth is such a disjointed mess with writers actually arguing different points." There are no secondary sources which comment upon this supposed controversy, right? There are no sources (except Remsberg) that say that the definition of the phrase "Christ myth" is ambiguous, right? There are no sources that say that "myth", "historical", or "fiction" are ambiguous in relation to this particular topic. So the latter point is certainly original research. The "disjointed mess" that Bruce sees is original research also, since it's his inventive readings of the sources that have led him to see mass confusion, rather than concerns expressed by secondary sources themselves. --Akhilleus (talk) 19:39, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

If the Christ myth theory is mostly propounded by people who aren't biblical scholars, then I don't see any reason to prefer publications by biblical scholars as references. Martijn Meijering (talk) 22:28, 30 October 2011 (UTC)

On any topic in the encyclopedia the highest quality sources should be sought. The topic of this article is (pretty obviously) within the subject of early Christianity—the highest quality sources are therefore going to be academic publications on this topic. This is a straightforward application of Wikipedia's content policies, not to mention common sense. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:12, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Of course, it should go without saying that the central sources for the article should be the proponents of the theory. So pride of place should be given to Bauer, Drews, Robertson, etc. --Akhilleus (talk) 01:14, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

Akhilleus by presenting Schweitzer is again ignoring the FACT that Schweitzer put a man who clearly and definitively stated "My theory assumes the historical reality of Jesus of Nazareth" in with John M. Robertson, William Benjamin Smith, and Arthur Drews. No amount of hemming and hawing is going to change that FACT.--BruceGrubb (talk) 06:38, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Paul R. Eddy and Gregory A. Boyd in "The Jesus Legend" pp. 24-27 define the legendary Jesus thesis and the mythical Jesus thesis. They say that the mythical Jesus thesis is the thesis that Jesus did not exist. The legendary Jesus thesis is an umbrella under which fall the mythical Jesus thesis, the Jesus existed but we cannot know anything about him thesis and the Jesus existed and we can know something about him, but he was not the same with the Christ of the Christian faith thesis (i.e. the Gospels have some historical information but also mythical information, such as the miracles and the divinity of Jesus). Those pages are available on Google Books. Tgeorgescu (talk) 00:20, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually, Paul R. Eddy and Gregory A. Boyd state "Jesus tradition is virtually--perhaps entirely--fictional nature ie legendary as we are using the term)" (sic) and specifically mention Wells Jesus Legend and Jesus Myth BOTH OF WHICH ACKNOWLEDGE A 1st CENTURY TEACHER NAMED JESUS AS EXISTING--ie Eddy and Boyd have the same problem with Wells that Schweitzer had with Frazer!--BruceGrubb (talk) 23:27, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Dawkins's view on Jesus

Dawkins's stance (The God Delusion, p. 97): "Although Jesus probably existed, reputable biblical scholars do not in general regard the New Testament (and obviously not the Old Testament) as a reliable record of what actually happened in history, and I shall not consider the Bible further as evidence for any kind of deity." So, he thinks that Jesus probably existed. Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:49, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for attempting to balance the comment about Dawkins, but it's not enough. I had forgotten about the issue, but I commented above (see #Richard Dawkins) that the text concerning Dawkins is completely wrong (my previous comment explained what Dawkins wrote). Currently, the article states that Dawkins wrote a book that questioned whether Jesus existed—that is total nonsense, and presumably was originally an attempt to show just how evil are those who question the existence of Jesus (because many reading an article like this would have been brainwashed into thinking that Dawkins = atheism = evil). Johnuniq (talk) 01:47, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Far from it. The advocates for including Dawkins were generally the same individuals who attempt to present JMT in the most positive light, as the discussion you link to above clearly indicates. Paul B (talk) 19:27, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh. That's even worse. I see that the issue was a "passing reference" at 13 January 2010, and appears to be been promoted to "questioned whether Jesus existed" at 14 August 2010. I would just remove or drastically prune mentions of Dawkins, but now I'm worried that the other related stuff may likewise be an overstatement of what the authors wrote. Johnuniq (talk) 03:33, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

It is not so much as presenting the JMT in the most positive light but a more balanced view. The fact that Schweitzer put Frazer ("My theory assumes the historical reality of Jesus of Nazareth") in with Drews and Paul R. Eddy and Gregory A. Boyd cite Wells Jesus Legend and Jesus Myth as example of their Mythic-Jesus theory even both books accept a historical Jesus as behind the proposed Q gospel show they are either mistaken or are using Marshall's far narrower 'The description of Jesus in the Gospel corresponds to what he was actually like' rather than his broader 'he existed in contrast to King Lear or Dr. Who'.

"But the sociological fashion reflected in the rise of Formgeschichte leads colour to Christ-myth theories and indeed to all theories that regard Jesus as an historical but insignificant figure." (Wood, Herbert George (1934) MacMillan (New York, Cambridge, [Eng.] : The University Press pg 40)

Here a University Press book defines Christ-myth theory as among the "theories that regard Jesus as an historical but insignificant figure" and NOT the didn't exist model some editors keep trying to push this article into. DEAL WITH IT.--BruceGrubb (talk) 23:50, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Jesus myth theory?

Why put the word "theory" in the title?

We don't affix "theory" to the end of other myths. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 132.3.45.68 (talk) 18:37, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Because this isn't an article about the myth of Jesus. (For that, see here.) Rather, it's an article about a theory (or cluster of theories) whose proponents often refer to Jesus as a myth. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 16:04, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

I still argue the article should be titled "Christ Myth theory" as that better describes the topic.--BruceGrubb (talk) 23:30, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree with BruceGrubb. Why not take another vote? Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 00:10, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Proposal: rename article as Christ myth theory

As proposed by BruceGrubb and Bill the Cat in the section immediately above this one. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 18:50, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

• Weak support "Christ myth" gets more Google Books hits than "Jesus myth". Also, not all theories that go by the name "Jesus myth" or "Christ myth" deny the existence of a historical Jesus, whereas they all question, to various degrees, the story of the Christ of Christianity. Depending on how broad the scope of this article is meant to be (this is still unclear to me), the aforementioned fact should count in favor of having "Christ" as opposed to "Jesus" in the title. --Phatius McBluff (talk) 18:50, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support - Same as above. Bill the Cat 7 (talk) 20:04, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

• Support - The best argument for "Christ myth theory" title is that many of the augments regarding the topic involve Drews' Die Christusmythe (Christ Myth). Ironically some of Drews own points are along Marshall's "Gospels accounts give a reasonable account of historical events" rather than the "Jesus no more existed then King Lear or Dr Who" so often given. Take these passages from Drews work for example: "In the meantime there are many voices which speak out against the existence of an historical Jesus. In wide circles the doubt grows as to the historical character of the picture of Christ given in the Gospels." (...) If in spite of this any one thinks that besides the latter a Jesus also cannot be dispensed with, this can naturally not be opposed; but we know nothing of this Jesus". While piece like Old Protestantism and the New By Brian Gerrish (on page 230 and 232) explain that Drews is arguing for the Jesus being a historicized myth slant you still have Dodd and several other saying this historicization could have involved "(seizing) upon the report of an obscure Jewish holy-man bearing this name, and arbitrarily attached the "cult-myth" to him" which dovetails into Wells current theory.--BruceGrubb (talk) 02:24, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
• Comment I should mention that Talk:Jesus_myth_theory/Archive_40#RfC_to_move_Christ_myth_theory_to_Jesus_myth_theory shows that the argument for a name change had problems and seemed to have gone by a vote count rather than the strength of the arguments. Based on the arguments presented in Talk:Jesus_myth_theory/Archive_40#Threaded_discussion per WP:TITLECHANGES the name of the article should have never been changed form Christ Myth theory in the first place as there wasn't there wasn't a consensus (a simply majority vote is not a consensus, people). It certainly didn't help that people changed their votes and some support votes were based on erroneous information such as "Jesus makes it clear that what is involved is doubt that the human being existed" ignoring the fact that Christ Mythers like Mead, Robertson, Pre-Jesus Legend Wells, and Ellegård all accepted the existence of the human being...they just put him in a different time or did different things.--BruceGrubb (talk) 10:36, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
• Comment How much longer should we wait before changing the title? --Phatius McBluff (talk) 01:14, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
• Comment Unless someone objects I would say it would be a nice Jan 1 gift.--BruceGrubb (talk) 01:43, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
  • It's well past Jan 1, and I for one do not object. Shall we rename the page? --Phatius McBluff (talk) 07:06, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
• For future reference, given the history, this probably should have been done with an RM. But I don't have a view on the move. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:53, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Not sure how you come to that conclusion since there was never consensus to change it in the first place (From Christ Myth to Jesus Myth) but there was consensus to change it back. The only time an RM is necessary is if it's controversial and I don't see any controversy. If people crawl out of the woodwork and start objecting then it can go to an RM. Mystylplx (talk) 15:04, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Comment -- I agree with Mystylplx and showed via Talk:Jesus_myth_theory/Archive_40#RfC_to_move_Christ_myth_theory_to_Jesus_myth_theory the name change (From Christ Myth to Jesus Myth) was wonky to begin with. At best it was a simple majority violating the consensus requirement of WP:TITLECHANGES and given the way some people changed their votes it was not clear if even a majority had been achieved.

As I said back in that RfC the only one reference to tot he article's original Jesus myth hypothesis (Talk:Christ_myth_theory/Archive_20) title was to "Jesus myth" hypothesis (Turner, J.E. (1931) Revelation of Deity Macmillan company (Original from the University of California, originally from University of Liverpool) and as I pointed out back then what he was arguing is confusing as all get out.

"Christ Myth Theory" in many uses seems to be used as short hand for "Christ Myth by Drews Theory" ie a particular version of the theory just as "Theory of Evolution" has become shorthand for "Darwin's Theory of Evolution" even though there are other "Theories of Evolution" (such as Lamarckism and Punctuated equilibrium).

The reality is that there are many variations of the "Christ Myth" theory:

• Jesus originally being an allegoric myth to which historical details possibly including an actual obscure 1st century teacher of the same name were added later (Dodd, Charles Harold (1938) History and the gospel University of Chicago pg 17; (1911) The Hibbert journal, Volume 9, Issues 3-4 pg 658; Robert M Price. "Response to James D. G Dunn," in James K. Beilby & Paul Rhodes Eddy (eds.) The Historical Jesus: Five Views. InterVarsity, 2009, p. 230.)

• Jesus began as at a Myth with historical trappings possibly including "reports of an obscure Jewish Holy man bearing this name" being being added later. (Walsh, George (1998) The Role of Religion in History Transaction Publishers pg 58)(one possible reading of Dodd, C.H. (1938) History and the Gospel under the heading Christ Myth Theory Manchester University Press pg 17)

• Jesus was historical but lived c100 BCE (Price, Robert M. "Jesus at the Vanishing Point" in James K. Beilby & Paul Rhodes Eddy (eds.) The Historical Jesus: Five Views. InterVarsity, 2009, p. 65)

• The Christ Myth may be a form of modern docetism (Grant, Michael. Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels. Scribner, 1995; first published 1977, p. 199)

• The Gospel Jesus is in essence a composite character and therefore non historical by definition.(Price, Robert M. (2000) Deconstructing Jesus Prometheus Books, pg 85)

• The Gospel Jesus didn't exist and GA Wells' Jesus Myth (1999) is an example of this. Doherty, Earl "Book And Article Reviews: The Case For The Jesus Myth: "Jesus — One Hundred Years Before Christ by Alvar Ellegard" review

• The Christ-myth theory belongs to the group of "theories that regard Jesus as an historical but insignificant figure." (Wood, Herbert George (1934) MacMillan (New York, Cambridge, [Eng.] : The University Press pg 40)

• Jesus Agnosticism: The Gospel story is so filled with myth and legend that nothing about it including the very existence of the Jesus described can be shown to be historical. (Eddy, Paul R. and Boyd, Gregory A. The Jesus Legend Baker Academic, 2007. pg 24-25)

• "This view (Christ Myth theory) states that the story of Jesus is a piece of mythology, possessing no more substantial claims to historical fact than the old Greek or Norse stories of gods and heroes..." (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia: E-J 1982 by Geoffrey W. Bromiley) The problem with this definition is it makes no distinction between historic myth (like the Trojan War) and philosophical myth (like Hades and Persephone). More over, Eusebius in Preparation of the Gospel [portrayed Heracles as a flesh and blood person who was later deified] and as late as 1919 it was stated "Osiris, Attis, Adonis were men. They died as men; they rose as gods" ("Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics" pg 646)

So depending on the author just what "the" Christ Myth theory even is varies. If there is a common thread in the myriad of versions it is that

1. The Gospel Jesus is a myth
2. Even if Jesus existed he was not the "founder" of Christianity

Those two points are about the only ones that seem common to all the versions we have found.--BruceGrubb (talk) 20:35, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Context and Counter-arguments section

The Context and counter arguments sections have problems as they don't really fit the broader NPOV definition that has been hammered out.

For example, L. Michael White's claim that BOTH the gospels of Matthew and Luke say Jesus was born a Jew during the reign of Herod the Great has serious problems--anyone who goes does any degree of work on Jesus knows about the Census of Quirinius problem in Luke. Luke 2:2 expressly states "And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria" and in 5:2 says that Mary was "great with child".

The counter argument section is even more of a mess as it only addresses some of the points raised by some versions of the Christ myth theory--they don't address all the other variants (like the story of Jesus being a fabrication "possessing no more substantial claims to historical fact than the old Greek or Norse stories of gods and heroes" or the De-vinci code which can be traced back to Celsus c180CE)--BruceGrubb (talk) 05:43, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

The "broader NPOV definition that has been hammered out" is something that you've synthesized based on your interpretation of the sources (and for the most part you've ignored academic sources in favor of non-expert references). Never mind that the basic issue at hand in discussions of a "Jesus myth" theory or Jesus mythicism is whether the guy existed, as a cursory Google search makes crystal clear... --Akhilleus (talk) 05:20, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Akhilleus, you have been claiming this as long as I have been on this article and the general consensus was that you and the handful that supported your position were wrong. In Talk:Christ_myth_theory/Archive_40#Threaded_discussion I presented the many times that this article has been called a CFORK. Administrator User:SlimVirgin went as far as to say "(a) this article is a POV fork of Historicity of Jesus; and (b) that the Christ myth theory is that we're not in a position to say that Jesus existed, and we ought to stop being so certain about it. That's it." and later "There is no clean boundary between the Christ myth position and other minimalist positions, because they amount to the same thing depending on which words you stress. The search for a clean boundary is fruitless."

In the past Akhilleus has presented Schweitzer even though Schweitzer clearly put Frazer who clearly and definitively stated "My theory assumes the historical reality of Jesus of Nazareth" in with John M. Robertson, William Benjamin Smith, and Arthur Drews a fact expressly and directly stated in the man's own 1931 autobiography. Furthermore Paul R. Eddy and Gregory A. Boyd in "The Jesus Legend" by presenting Wells Jesus Legend and Jesus Myth BOTH OF WHICH ACKNOWLEDGE A 1st CENTURY TEACHER NAMED JESUS AS EXISTING as examples of their mythical Jesus thesis have the same problem with Wells that Schweitzer had with Frazer.

Akhilleus' response regarding Marshal's either or regarding how Jesus could be historical (either unlike Dr Who or King Lear or unlike King Arthur) in Talk:Jesus_myth_theory/Archive_42#Richard_Dawkins IMHO shows a tendency to try and ignore factual points that upset his POV on this topic.--BruceGrubb (talk) 10:09, 12 February 2012 (UTC)