Talk:Jewish Christian

Conceptualization etc. (globalize)

Some issues:

1. Why is this talk page not archived? The oldest comment on this page is from just three months ago. (Created archive from history).
2. Issues with terminology and hyperbole: For example the language "totally faithful" in the lede.
3. The term "Jewish Christians" is nominally general and as such has contemporary relevance, yet this is not mentioned in the lede. The lede improperly asserts an exclusively historical and contextually Christian definition, and not a Jewish-cultural/Christian belief definition, which is given only a section below, and otherwise might be confined to particular conceptualizations like "Netzarim," "Conversos," "Marranos," "Judaizers" or "converts/apostates."

-Stevertigo (w | t | e) 18:46, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Depicting Legends as Sources

Much of this material, particularly that applying to adventures of saints, is not historically sound. It has been passed on as religious legend and may be taken as factual by churches, but that is not acceptable for true scholarship. The ambiguity about these historical times and the gaps in our knowledge need to be acknowledged, and the only documents that are relevant are those not obviously written by medeival Christian propogandists. 76.113.64.124 (talk) 06:02, 11 July 2010 (UTC)

There is little about religious historiology, Christian or otherwise, which is unambiguously factual. If you could list some specific criticisms, they could be dealt with one at a time. -Stevertigo (w | t | e) 00:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Lets start with the assumption that Christians believe their own theology, and that Jesus rose from the tomb, and that the 11 disciples took over the movement after Jesus went to heaven. James became the congregational leader (according to tradition) after the congregation was scattered, not immediately upon Jesus' death. --DeknMike (talk) 13:13, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

I tagged the appropriate parts of history with the religious primary template... I agree, that section really needs an academic historical reference. Zad68 (talk) 21:49, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Rewrite needed for lead

This article is focused on first century Jewish believers, and ignores Jewish believers throughout history, especially the effect of Jewish Christians, Hebrew Christians and Messianic Jews in the 19th, 20th and 21st centuries. For example, the first sentence references the Judaizers in the original congregation in Jerusalem. However, that congregation likely was not call Christian, being a Hellenistic term originating in Antioch. --DeknMike (talk) 04:41, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

I have been reading your comment and you have a good point. Should this article title be "Early Jewish Christians"? - Ret.Prof (talk) 00:25, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Or, the missing material could just be added. There's nothing stopping anyone from doing it, subject of course to WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:39, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand "early Jewish Christians" are a distinct group, regardless if that is the best name to call them. I'm not sure if an article on every person in the last 2000 years who is in some sense both Jewish and Christian is a good idea. Borock (talk) 14:10, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

archived tangential Messianic Judaism section

Main article: Messianic Judaism

During the first years of the 20th Century, some Jews who had converted to Christianity began distancing themselves from Christian forms of worship, and began to use the term "Messianic". In the 1940s and 50s, missionaries in Israel adopted the term meshichyim ("Messianics") to counter negative connotations of the word nozrim ("Christians"). The rise of Messianic Judaism was, in many ways, a logical outcome of the ideology and rhetoric of the movement to evangelize the Jews as well as its early sponsorship of various forms of Hebrew Christian expressions. The missions have promoted the idea that conversion to Christianity was acceptable for Jews.

In the 1960s, in part because of the Jesus movement, Jewish groups and mainline Christians were surprised to see this rise of a vigorous movement of Jewish Christians or Christian Jews. Martin Chernoff became the President of the HCAA in 1971 (until 1975), and under his leadership the movement's position shifted radically. In June 1973, a motion was made to change the name of the HCAA to the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA), and the name was officially changed in June 1975. According to David A. Rausch, "The name change, however, signified far more than a semantical expression — it represented an evolution in the thought processes and religious and philosophical outlook toward a more fervent expression of Jewish identity," and began to eliminate the elements of Christian worship that cannot be directly linked to their Jewish roots. --DeknMike (talk) 01:18, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

What is your point with this material? Jayjg ^(talk) 02:30, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

The section at the end of the article about Jews who had converted to Christianity also struck me as being totally off-topic. I also tend to question the whole article as being somewhat original research and a fringe view, although with some good information. I'm not sure a distinct article for "Jewish Christians" is needed, rather good NPOV coverage of the history of the relationship of Judaism and early Christianity.Borock (talk) 13:51, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

POVFORK of this article being created

As this article notes, "Hebrew Christian" is another term for "Jewish Christian". Since 2006 the page Hebrew Christian has been a redirect to this article. In December, DeknMike (talk · contribs) decided to turn the Hebrew Christian article into a WP:POVFORK of Messianic Judaism - in fact, copying significant amounts of text verbatim from the Messianic Judaism article. A discussion was held regarding what should be done about this at Talk:Messianic Judaism/Archive 20#Newly updated Wikipedia article "Hebrew_Christian", and the consensus was to restore the redirect. However, since then DeknMike has reverted 3 different editors, re-creating the WP:POVFORK. He has not actually explained why the material is not already or could not be covered in the Messianic Judaism or Jewish Christian articles. Is there a consensus that the "Hebrew Christian" article should be turned into a standalone article?

• Oppose, for the reasons given above. Jayjg ^(talk) 18:18, 21 February 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose for reasons as above but I do think an NEW article should be created with a title like "Hebrew Christians (19th Century movement)" or something like that. There was such a movement in that period and it deserves a page, but that movement was not directly related to or a continuation of the movement discussed at Jewish Christians.Zad68 (talk) 21:31, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Can someone lease explain, first, why you're holding this discussion here instead of on that article's talk page? It seems to me to be implicitly prejudicial to hold the discussion here. Well, I see that you've notified that other article, so I guess this is fine, but I still find it odd. I'm going to take a look at the several articles in question later today when I have time; when I read just Hebrew Christian as a reader with no knowledge of the subject, I don't actually see how it's a POV fork, but perhaps if I read it more closely (or if someone explains), I'll understand better. If there is, in fact, as Zad68 says, a distinct, separate movement from the 19th century that is not the same movement as Messianic Judaism, then there should be a separate article. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:44, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

We're doing the vote on this page because Jayjg did a redirect on the HC talk page, and it is no longer publicly accessible.--DeknMike (talk) 01:21, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

• For - The Messianic Judaism editorial community made convincing arguments that the history of the Hebrew Christian movement did not belong on that site. However, since the Jewish Christian article deals mostly with early Christianity, I used the large body of evidence to document the rise of so-called Hebrew Christians in the 18th thru 20th century as a separate movement. However, if the community would prefer, we can rename the aforementioned article Hebrew Christian 'Movement'. --DeknMike (talk) 01:21, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

So the issue is resolved then DeknMike if you agree to create a new page and put the material on the 19th century movement there. DeknMike could you please put back the redirect on Hebrew Christian to Jewish Christians and put the material on the 19th century on a new page, problem solved. Right? Zad68 (talk) 02:39, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

That sounds fine to me; the current contents can got to Hebrew Christian Movement or something similar, and Hebrew Christian can redirect back here, with a properly worded {{redirect}} note at the top of this article. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:13, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose For the reasons stated above. Best, A Sniper (talk) 02:21, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

RESOLVED: Per consensus and agreement of DeknMike at the discussion here, and because DeknMike mentioned that he would be away from editing for a few days, I completed the move of the article contents and restored the original redirect. Zad68 (talk) 15:33, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Contents are now at Hebrew Christian Movement Zad68 (talk) 15:34, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

The lede was incorrect in placing without sourcing four/five terms as coequivalent, which sources indicate they are not, even if Christian Jews, Hebrew Christians reasonably redirects back here. I have broken out and added [incomplete but mainstream I hope] sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:40, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Messy intro

The current intro constitutes a multitude of "definitions", that should instead be placed on a disambiguation page. The article body, in contrast, is dealing mainly with the original Aramaic speaking "Christians" (Nazarenes, the original adherents of Yeshua bar-Maryam) living in Roman Judea of antiquity. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 10:41, 28 January 2012 (UTC)