Talk:Jezebel

Biblical references

The text here mentions two women in the Hebrew Bible, but then goes on to cite Jezebel (princess of Tyre and queen of Israel) from 1 Kings, and the seer Jezebel of Thyateira, who is named in the Apocalypse of John (Book of Revelation). Should the text read "...is the name of two women in the Bible."? The rest of the article makes it clear where each person is discussed. Epimetreus 23:08, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

• Unless I'm reading the page incorrectly, there is an inaccuracy here. Jezebel's story is told in 1 Kings, but 1 Kings is not part of the Torah. The word "Torah" is not a synonym for "old testament;" "Torah" refers only to Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. It would be more accurate to say "In the Tanakh" or "In the Hebrew Bible." ~ikeeverett —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ikeeverett (talk • contribs) 23:16, March 24, 2007
  • Ok since I haven't heard from anyone I'm going to make the change. ~ikeeverett —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ikeeverett (talk • contribs) 05:37, March 28, 2007
    • good job —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.252.201.237 (talk • contribs) 19:55, August 26, 2008

The comment in the opening section about makeup being associated with "painted women" and prostitutes thanks to the Jezebel story is false and should be removed. Making oneself pretty is not seen as an attribute of "fallen" women in the Old Testament. For example, Genesis (Egyptians saw Sarah was a very beautiful woman), Esther, before she appeals to the King; Exodus (in the oral history that accompanies Exodus, women go into the fields and inspire their husbands, wearing makeup, after the Pharoah commands them to throw their newborns into the Nile). Go ahead and add any interpretations about beauty from the New Testament you want, but they do not belong in the Old Testament. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jumpygrouch (talk • contribs) 08:30, 15 February 2011 (UTC)

Another song reference

Jezebel was referenced in the song Juke Joint Jezebel by KMFDM off the Money album as well —Preceding unsigned comment added by Runswithspoon (talk • contribs) 17:40, April 26, 2006

And in Bad Girls by Danity Kane —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.184.7.176 (talk • contribs) 19:35, September 17, 2008

I have another, Poe (the singer) sings "This is Jezebel in hell" in her song Angry Johnny. It is ultimately one of my favorites, and lead me to look up exactly who Jezebel was (leading me to here).--160.81.78.102 01:31, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

real name

It seems likely that the name recorded in the Bible is changed to be a slur. Are there any scholarly guesses as to what her real name was? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.132.164.243 (talk • contribs) 09:45, October 3, 2006

which person are you referring to? the one from 1 kings? or the one from revelation? the one from first kings I'm pretty sure is her real name (the old testament is recording history and i do not think they changed her name though I could be wrong.) though don't quote me on that and if you find some evidence please quote it. jittters —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jittters (talk • contribs) 19:39, October 5, 2006

I think the derivation (hebrew: not exalted) is questionable and biased toward biblical literalism. Most people put the meaning as "chaste". Remember that the name is not a Hebrew word - Jezebel is Phoenecian, and you tend to see the -bel suffix in words imported from Babylon etc. Also note that literal derivations like "not exalted" or "not acclaimed" tend to be misleading because as a name the word was probably always intended in a more idiomatic sense (chaste, not owned by a man). People tend to forget that the nuances of a word's usage in any period is not immediately obvious. People also tend to have a sense that a literal derivation is like a magic rule book, rather than a guide of variable usefulness. Regarding bias, some historical context is important. Jezebel was queen in Israel in the north, and most of the old testament (certainly Kings) was written in Judah to the south. Israel (which ceased to exist around 700BC) is generally disparaged throughout the old testament: although both were religiously diverse (yes, even according to the bible) the Judahite Kings were more morally upright in enforcing the hebrew religion and exterminating infidels. Additionally, Israel was much wealthier (which is why Assyria wiped it out while paying relatively little attention to Judah). So much of the old testament, including 1Kings, is written after Israel ceased to exist by people with chips on their shoulders. You'd be amazed how many avid bible readers are unaware of this context. The take home point here is that disparaging discussion of Jezebel in the old testament should not be taken as representative of how Jezebel would have been viewed by the people around her. -- snaxalotl 26 july 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.172.99.15 (talk • contribs) 03:41, July 26, 2007

Jezebel was the daughter of Ittobaal = "Man of Ba'al" or "With Him is Ba'al".... the name Itsa-bel (Jezebel) is very similar to her father's name Itto-baal. ALSO, as is widely known, the historical redactors always HID the presence of "Ba'al theophoric elements", as with the names of Saul's son, Ishbaal -> Ishbosheth. Esh-baal means "Man of Baal'. THUS, Jezebel probably meant something like "Woman of Ba'al", and the theophoric element "Ba'al" was subsequently CENSORED — much like, in the opposite direction, Jews today substitute Adonai or HaShem for the name of YHWH-God. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.68.244 (talk • contribs) 21:30, August 1, 2007

This is all well and good but encyclopedic entries require verifiability. None of the above could be consider such common knowledge that your average reader turning to wikipedia would know the sources of such information and the single mention in the article that The Naked Archeologists says so isn't a reliable since he is not a linguist and he tends to make amazing leaps of judgement to reach conclusions that few historians would defend. The best way to include this information is to simply name the linguist or historian asserting these interpretations as fact and then include the citation to where they make the statement. I'll try and find what I can using Google Books but those editors who really care about this as above, might already have their reliable sources at the ready. I realize I'm several years late in this discussion but the article's content on this continues to evolve and not for the better. Please help me source these assertions. Thanks! LiPollis (talk) 00:56, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Popular Culture

I'm not sure the Popular Culture section is all that relevent to an article called "Jezebel (Bible)". The title would imply the depiction in the bible is more important. I propose that the list get a seperate article. If anybody agrees I'll go ahead and do it. Robinoke 23:51, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

"jezebel" is also the name of a song by acid bath off the "when the kite string pops" album. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.100.24.94 (talk • contribs) 07:47, November 22, 2006

Why is popular culture popular??—Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.143.68.244 (talk • contribs) 21:30, August 1, 2007

Outkast song Jazzy Belle off ATLiens worth an add? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.231.2.21 (talk) 21:09, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that moving the popular culture list to another article would be a good idea. It doesn't seem entirely relevant to the biblical article, as many references aren't even to the biblical Jezebel specifically but have to do with the word being used to mean "hussy". I do think, however, that the list is worth having somewhere just to show the cultural prevalence of the name/word. Also, I think the list should be edited a bit as a lot of the references contain opinions, such as the one that says such-and-such song is "the most beautiful song by this title." That is not relevant to the list! I don't have time to do it right now, but I might come back in a few hours and trim the list down for facts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.4.140.40 (talk) 07:19, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

The subsection Jezeble as a "slut" should be renamed, as the word "slut" referes to a prostitute or sexually promiscuous woman, whereas the section also refers to images of a Jezebel being a wicked and controlling woman. I suggest replacing "slut" with "evil woman". Wkharrisjr (talk) 19:53, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

Requested move

Move due to primary meaning and usage. -Stevertigo 07:45, 9 August 2007 (UTC)

Low Quality

Most of this article is just fluff pop culture references. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.153.4.250 (talk) 07:34, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree, also with the "Popular Culture" comment above by Robinoke. Can't this list of pop culture references, in this article, be shortened to 3 or 4? Maybe the most prominent ones, like Bette Davis' movie character? Z Wylld (talk) 17:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Aren't "trivia" or "pop culture" sections discouraged in Wikipedia? Seems like we should integrate anything relevant into the article itself and get rid of all the "I went to high school with a girl named Jezebel" items. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.124.161.142 (talk) 13:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, I was pretty dissapointed with this article. Can someone do some sort of biography about her? Her death is mentioned several times in this article and nobody has specified how she died! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.1.0.2 (talk) 13:27, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. When you feel an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top. The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes — they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). --Elonka 18:03, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Acting on the above advice (and the various comments elsewhere on this talk page), I've been bold and removed the 'popular culture' section entirely. Robofish (talk) 23:40, 18 April 2009 (UTC)

Name

Using the vowels traditionally employed for this name by Hebrew readers, the Hebrew form of this name means "not exalted". But it is highly unlikely her parents would have given her such a name. Read with different vowels it can be understood as meaning "Where is the Prince?" ('ay zebul in Hebrew). In fact, early Syrian inscriptions from Ugarit demonstrate that "the Prince" (equivalent of Hebrew "Zebul") was a popular title for the storm god of the Phoenicians. The sentence "Where is the Prince?" is even found in Ugaritic literature. It is a form of invocation, calling on the god named to appear and act. In other words, this Tyrian princess was given a name in praise of the chief god of her people (whom the Hebrew Bible refers to mainly by the title "Baal", meaning "lord, master"). "Jezebel" is, then, a reinterpretation, intended to mock this Queen and her god, whom she encouraged Israel to worship. The transliteration is 'Iyzebel meaning "Baal is exalted".

The Hebrew Bible contains two other examples of this name formula. First, in the larger context of the Jezebel story, after Elijah is taken up, Elisha strikes the Jordan with Elijah's cloak and cries, "Where is YHWH, the god of Elijah?" as an invocation for Yahweh to part the waters, as he had done from Elijah (2 Kings 2). Second, the name "Ichabod", traditionally read as "no glory" (son of the priest Phinehas, in 1 Samuel) may be read as, "Where is the Glory?" In context, the question becomes sadly ironic, because "the Glory" is associated with the Ark of the Covenant, which has just been captured by the Philistines.

A related type of Hebrew name is "Who is like El?" (Michael), or "Who is like Yahweh?" (Micaiah).

I have just removed all of the above from the article. There are no references, and it reads like speculative musings. If this is a theory that has appeared in print, then it needs to be reinstated, but preceeded with appropriate qualifiers. E.g., "Professor Bloggs speculated in June 2009 issue of The Journal of Biblical Studies that..." -- Oliver P. (talk) 21:56, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

Move to Jezebel

I have created a Requested Move to relocate this article to Jezebel and move the disambiguation page to Jezebel (disambiguation). Discussion should take place at Talk:Jezebel#Requested move. Propaniac (talk) 16:33, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Jezebel which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RM bot 17:00, 20 January 2010 (UTC)

Bias

Considering the "Christian" label on this, I am surprised by the leaning toward defense of Jezebel. A more middle of the road position might recognize instead that Jezebel did "start" the animosity not actually through what she was accused of, but through actually KILLING the people on her husband's side. When she did that, she made herself an enemy to his people.

Human reaction is still the same today when a new spouse of either sex appears to want to divide the other spouse from his or her biological family. The family of birth "feels" as though the new spouse is misusing the power of sex and whatever else as a wedge between them. The killings of her husband's "people" seems to prove that as her intention. Her husband's people might then believe that the only way to stop her was to react in kind and they also might then go on to believe that the "wiles" of a beautiful woman are particularly dangerous -- which, unfortunately, hurts other women in general. Just because she is a strong woman doesn't make her innocent of all charges. She apparently did have an agenda that did involve harm to those who were NOT her people.

So, I believe when we look at the stories of these people in the past, we need to beware of drifting too far toward one end or the other. Instead, we need to recognize the REALITIES of the situation and accept them for what they are. Yes, Jezebel was a strong-willed woman, but No, she was not an innocent who was badly maligned and overpowered by "bad" religious zealots for no reason because she killed some of those zealots before that time showing them that her intentions toward them was not good and that she intended to use her power in a dangerous way.

Religion has been a divider for a very long time, but when we take sides in the retelling of the events, we falsely extend the hatred. A fight can NOT exist without at least TWO differing parties. There is NEVER just one side to any story. Jezebel was not maligned falsely by the overly-zealous people of Ahab, but many women after her were held back because of her out of fear of the power that women might have against men... women were stereotyped according to Jezebel because of the men's fear of their own weaknesses in love. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.45.28.217 (talk) 18:18, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Dubious source

I can't find V. Barzowski or his supposed book online. Editors need to provide complete source info, including accurate title, place,, publisher and date of publication, page references - otherwise it does not count as a valid citation. Parkwells (talk) 19:36, 15 November 2010 (UTC)