Talk:Jimmy Wales

Regarding style of quotes

I recently took the trouble to convert all the straight quotation marks to curly ones. I expected to be reverted, and indeed it was, but now the article has a combination of curly and straight quotes (inconsistent).

I just want to remember that MoS is just a guideline and not policy. This encyclopedia is not just online, its articles also end up printed in books.

I know that " is easier for type, but you are not encouraged to use “ and ”. If someone took the time to change those little signs, do not undo that just for following the manual of style. In that case, don’t you think that this article also should follow strictly MoS? —Fitoschido ^[shout] \\ 19 July, 2011 [02:10]

In my humble opinion curly quotes are best in this very important WP page .!. . . . Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 15:09, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Bomis

• 'Pornography' vs 'adult content'

I'm referring to the sentence: "In 1996, he and two partners founded Bomis, a male-oriented web portal featuring entertainment and adult content," in which my edit to change the word "adult" to "pornographic" was reverted.

In the above sentence, "adult" is being used as a euphemism for pornography. This isn't a matter of opinion, this is an established, referenced fact (See Bomis). Using the word "adult" is ambiguous, and makes an implicit value judgement of the content. This is why it is preferred to simply use a more precise term and allow readers to make their own opinions. For further information: WP:EUPHEMISM. Dr. WTF (talk) 04:16, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Problem is, the word "pornography" is not at all precise, and it has a meaning now (when extreme porn is one click away from everyone) that is rather different from Bomis. Johnuniq (talk) 06:06, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Adult content is far less precise and is a loaded term. Who decides what is and isn't "adult"? Discussion of gambling, alcohol, tobacco, or recreational drugs could constitute adult content, but Bomis did not have any of that. Retirement could even be considered "adult" content. Dr. WTF (talk) 21:02, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi, I would say pornography was more loaded - there are legal statutes relating to age that assert who can look at what legally and when - whereas, one mans pornography is another mans naked humanoid. What do the reliable citations say and are there any links in the wayback to borris? all I get is redlink - http://wayback.archive.org/web/*/http://www.bomis.com/ - Off2riorob (talk) 21:10, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

The content was decidedly erotic. That is not disputed [2]. See the Bomis Wikipedia page for more. Dr. WTF (talk) 21:18, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, thanks - imo - erotic is closer defined in adult content than pornography ,"Bomis found its niche in erotica and adult content", I had a look a the wiki boris article, thanks for the detail. Its hair splitting imo and this is a WP:BLP so I prefer as policy suggests to err on the side of caution. Off2riorob (talk) 21:24, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

So we are in agreement to go with "erotic" in place of "adult"? Dr. WTF (talk) 21:28, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

No, please don't put words into my mouth - I support adult as being a neutral reflective expression, in this BLP. I will remove this from my watchlist for a bit now - one of the worst aspects of this project is endless worthless discussions over hair splitting trivia. - imo, from my investigations the NPOV position is adult content, bye. Off2riorob (talk) 21:32, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Well, you argued the point for me. Erotica is more closely defined in adult content. It is a more specific, less loaded, and less ambiguous term than "adult content", which you even indicate that it is a subset of. If you do not want to discuss this further, and if no one else has any further comments, I'll go ahead and change the term "adult content" in a few days time. Dr. WTF (talk) 21:36, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Hello| Your not listening at all .... I do not support your desired change - I support as the article currently is, adult content - Off2riorob (talk) 21:40, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

You cannot simply say you don't agree, abandon the discussion, and then expect whatever your opinion is to be fulfilled. Wikipedia works by building a consensus. If you want to discuss this further, then let's talk. Otherwise, step aside and let the rest of us form a consensus. Dr. WTF (talk) 21:49, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Again you misrepresent me - I have stated my position - I have nothing else to say about it - its so trivial I have already wasted more time on it than it is worth. Simply count my vote for the consensus in support of the position I have stated. Off2riorob (talk) 21:56, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I have not misrepresented your position. I cannot be faulted for misinterpreting what you've said when your unstated final conclusion went against your stated argument. I wasn't able to make that leap of logic and I doubt anyone else but you could have. But, please, if you have nothing else to say in regards to the original discussion do not feel obliged to continue. Unlike what you've said, this isn't a vote. Dr. WTF (talk) 22:07, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, "adult content" is not precise—no single term can precisely identify anything let alone a web site where a range of material is available. The main problem with "pornography" is what I said above: it has a meaning now that is totally different from 1996 and it misrepresents what Bomis says. From the latter: "categorized broadly as "Babe", "Entertainment", "Sports", "Adult", "Science fiction", and "Other"" (and later in the article, we see that Bomis Premium offered pornography). The proposed edit describes that simply as "a male-oriented web portal featuring entertainment and pornographic content". That misrepresents what was apparently quite different to what is known as porn today (where one click takes you to anal sex and more), and is not suitable, particularly in the lead of a BLP. Is there a reliable source describing Bomis as a porn site? Johnuniq (talk) 22:36, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

See above for a reference. And what are your thoughts on the term "erotic" instead? Dr. WTF (talk) 22:47, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

If by "above" you mean this, that article says "Bomis found its niche in erotica and adult content, making enough revenue from ads and paid subscriptions for premium X-rated content" which is pretty much what Bomis says. What is the actual problem that needs to be solved here? Who says that "adult content" is such a heinous euphemism that it must not be used? Describing YouPorn as "adult content" would be an absurd euphemism, but the term seems precisely appropriate (and sourced) for Bomis. Johnuniq (talk) 00:59, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Other websites are not bound to neutrality (cultural and otherwise). Adult content adds nothing but vagary. Who decides what is and isn't "adult"? Discussion of gambling, alcohol, tobacco, or recreational drugs could constitute adult content, but Bomis did not have any of that. Retirement could even be considered "adult" content. Also see [3]. Dr. WTF (talk) 15:48, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Bomis did, in fact, have information about gambling, alcohol, tobacco, and recreational drugs. Dr. WTF is pushing an agenda here that is not in line with the sources or the facts. Bomis was a platform for people to come and build "web rings" - links to content of all kinds and guess what, some people liked to collect links to adult content (of all kinds).--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:42, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Dr WTF, it should be referred to as pornography. I think we have consensus here, seeing as isn't there a rule about people trying to edit or influence their own article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.231.86.115 (talk) 05:01, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Bomis - RFC

• - Is Bomis best labeled as "adult", "pornographic", or "erotic"?

• What do the sources say? Also, if the founder of Bomis denies the alleged status, that at least should be quoted. This article section is more controversial. It is a BLP and thus should be courteous to its subject. Conservative is better thaN liberal. Documented truth is important with disclaimers by Jimmy Wales as BLP. Jimmy has made it clear that he wants to be treated the same as any other person, editor or subject. Without having Bomis to guide our thinking, we are bound to secondary sources about it. What do those sources allege? DonaldRichardSands (talk) 11:48, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

There is some disagreement regarding the appropriate labeling of Bomis in the (lead "adult", "pornographic", or "erotic"?) and whether or not a more descriptive term than "adult" should be used. Prior consensus settled on "erotic" [4] (also see footnote in main article). Dr. WTF (talk) 16:08, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

The source says "erotica and adult" - why not just go with that? I think "erotica" is better than "erotic", because the latter may be a matter of opinion. If Jimmy's willing to email me some archived content then I'll make a judgement and get back to you. --FormerIP (talk) 23:05, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

None of those labels is actually accurate. Bomis was a web directory built by end users and contained all kinds of content. The idea that it should be primarily referred to as "adult" even is just wrong. It was about as adult as Yahoo. (Indeed, I used to send reporters links to Yahoo when they would ask me about what this adult content at Bomis stuff meant.)

FormerIP, I don't have any archived content to email you. But here is a link to yahoo that Dr. WTF might find interesting. Perhaps it is time to go over to the article on one of the Yahoo founders to make wild claims about pornography?

There are some serious errors in some of the sources, which I'll just mention now. One source - a very high quality source - claims that Bomis came to be known as the "Playboy of the Internet" - that is completely false, and I dare anyone to find anyone even saying such a thing prior to the source claiming it. It was a turn of phrase by a reporter which is now sometimes in my article. (I haven't looked just now.) It's editorially misleading to the public to use that phrase since it is a factual claim which is provably false--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:51, 18 October 2011 (UTC).

OK, so there's an issue which the RfC seems to elide, in that characterising Bomis may not (or may) be straightforward. I get the impression that "about as adult as Yahoo" might be minimising, though. Wouldn't it be fair to say, at least, that Bomis was more specialised and did operate an adult/porn/erotica/whatever spinoff? I'm wearing my non-judgemental face and if that is inaccurate you can just say so.

I was really responding to the more specific question: if we are unsure what precise words to use, duplicating what is in the sources might be the best option. --FormerIP (talk) 13:59, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Why not add such to the AOL, Netscape, Open Directory Project and Rich Skrenta articles, based on the Adult section of the Dmoz directory, part of their comprehensive coverage of the web? Or Yahoo Directory and Jerry Yang, based on an Adult section of that directory? It would be good if the Wayback Machine had an old copy of at least the front page of Bomis, which would make everything clear. Unfortunately, that's been blocked. "We were unable to get the robots.txt document to display this page. Our request Timed Out." 99.50.189.108 (talk) 16:32, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Just from my personal experience, I only ever read anything about Bomis while first starting on WP and looking into what this Jimmy Wales guy was all about. From that brief encounter with Jimy's bio and the Bomis WP page (keeping in mind that this was a while back) I got the distinct impression back then that the site was largely depended on "adult content." I never really questioned that until encountering this discussion, so maybe, if false, that is a problem. Quinn ^{❀ BEAUTIFUL DAY} 20:29, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Note that "Playboy of the Internet" is not necessarily the damning phrase it is construed to be. Playboy historically prided itself in coverage of material other than "babes" - serialising Fahrenheit 451 and numerous other works by notable authors, and interviewing Martin Luther King, among many other. For anyone interested in the real "Playboy of the Internet" in the late 90s or early 2000s some UK Playboy servers were located in Telehouse, a few racks away from certain mailservers, firewalls, domain name servers, routers, switches and other infrastructure I was responsible for back in those days. Rich Farmbrough, 14:22, 20 October 2011 (UTC).
Comment. Responding thanks to RfC bot. I think "adult entertainment" is the most neutral term to utilize. ScottyBerg (talk) 14:11, 23 October 2011 (UTC)

• Maintain current wording - I read up on this topic a while ago, and my impression was that this analysis from Susan Kuchinskas was largely accurate -

“

Bomis found its niche in erotica and adult content, making enough revenue from ads and paid subscriptions for premium X-rated content to support a few more intellectual sites.

”

In other words, my impression was that Bomis was largely akin to Playboy, in that it offered a variety of adult orientated material. I don't think it would be right to call something like Playboy strictly "pornographic", though it's certainly partly pornographic. Similarly, I don't think it would be right to call it strictly erotic. The word "adult" seems to nicely encapsulate the idea of part pornography, part erotic, part adult-orientated content.

The word "pornographic" alone also strikes me as a little loaded. Sites like youporn.com, or tubekitty.com are "pornographic" in that pretty much 100% of the content is straight forward pornography. Bomis was clearly significantly different from those sites.

My impression here might be inaccurate, and if anyone wants to convince me of such, please send references......

On another note; I'm a little curious about Mr. Wales' assertion that "I don't have any archived content to email you.". I have a feeling that if Mr. Wales wanted to make content from his old website available for review, he could probably do so. Being able to see the old site would probably settle the question in many peoples' minds quickly. To paraphrase Potter Stewart, it's hard to define pornography, but I'll know it when I see it. NickCT (talk) 12:39, 26 October 2011 (UTC)

Assuming NickCT is right that the Kuchinskas quote is an accurate description, it seems like FormerIP's suggestion would be most appropriate: just writing "erotica and adult" exactly as the source does. Replacing "featuring entertainment and adult content" in the article with "featuring erotica and adult content" would be the most direct incorporation of the Kuchinskas quote, but the discussion above implies that a more amenable solution might be to replace it with "featuring entertainment, erotica, and adult content". --Abc-mn-xyz (talk) 07:16, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

• Prefer 'adult content' - Firstly, I don't see what this fuss is all about, but if I was writing the article I would use the wording "adult content" regardless of what the reliable sources say. There is no rule that says we have to copy & paste wording from reliable sources. Everyone understands what "adult content" is. I had a look at WP:EUPHEMISM and I don't think it is applicable here. Alex Harvey (talk) 02:13, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

Its audience was mostly men; pornography—videos and blogs—accounted for about a tenth of its revenues. [5]. If only ten % of its revenue was coming from "pornography—videos and blogs", where was the remaining 90% of its revenue coming from? It must have been doing things besides "pornography—videos and blogs"?-MW ^ℳ 14:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

• Prefer 'adult' I don't think any of these terms being considered is more descriptive/accurate than any other, and so for me it's just a question of which is less loaded. "Erotica" is a bit of a (positive) affectation, and "pornography" is pejorative. Came here from RfC bot, LoveUxoxo (talk) 18:35, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

• Pornographic, if not erotica I think we all know what Jimmy was dabbling in so let's cut to the chase. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.231.86.115 (talk) 05:04, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Change of birthday

Per reading the guardian article [6] and it's subsequent clarification by [7] Ian Grant, Managing director, Encyclopædia Britannica (UK) per 25 February 2011, I visited the Britannica site only to found that they had change the birthday to 8 August 1966. The note reads: "There is some confusion over the date of Jimmy Wales’s birth. A number of sources—including Current Biography and Who’s Who in America as well as a marriage license filed in Monroe county, Florida—give his birth date as Aug. 7, 1966. In June 2007 Wales notified Britannica that this date was incorrect. However, Wales would provide Britannica with the correct date and appropriate documentation only if it was agreed that his date of birth would not be published, which runs contrary to Britannica’s policies. Given that the majority of sources reported Aug. 7, 1966, and without documentation that disproved this date, Britannica decided to give August 7. In 2011, however, Wales provided a scanned image of his passport showing his birth date to be Aug. 8, 1966. As this is the most authoritative source available to Britannica, his birth date has been changed to August 8." (emphasis mine). Therefore I decided to update Jimmy's bio accordingly. Bennylin (talk) 13:23, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

In other projects such as Wikiquote, his birthday has been corrected as far as 3 years ago [8]. Bennylin (talk) 07:53, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Sigh... not this again.

Wikiquote is not a reliable source, nor is the IP who made that edit. Numerous sources, now including Britannica, attest to August 8 as the date of birth on Jimmy's birth certificate, and documents derived from it such as his passport and driving license. However, numerous other sources state that he was born on August 7. A recent example is here.

Jimmy continues to play games with this, particularly with Britannica - there's an inner child in everyone, I suppose - but he has generally been careful to distinguish between the date of birth according to his family, and the date of birth according to his birth certificate. When he had to sign a legal document (his marriage certificate) stating his date of birth, he gave it as August 7. See the FAQ and also Talk:Jimmy Wales/Birthdate. Geometry guy 20:01, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Residence

A source says Florida and another source says the United Kingdom. Will add an tag to the source that appears that it may be outdated. Folgertat (talk) 17:58, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I took it down. My edit summary got cut off, but what's your source? Hot Stop talk-contribs 19:39, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

In the personal life section, it says he moved to the UK. In the infobox, it says he lives in the U.S. One of these sources is unreliable Folgertat (talk) 19:58, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. The one you pointed mentioned that he commutes back and forth, so we could say he lives in both places. Hot Stop talk-contribs 23:28, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

It sounds like the Florida trips are just to visit his family. If I am understanding correctly, it sounds like he is living in the United Kingdom now.

00:28, 8 December 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Folgertat (talk • contribs)

Ok.... Little research -

18 Feb 2011 Gaurdian article - "and now he's moving to Britain" (note, it doesn't say he's actually taken up residence in the UK).

03 Nov 2011 Telgraph Article - "Nowadays he makes technological discoveries with his 10-year-old daughter. She lives in Florida with Wales’s second wife while he is moving to London with Kate Garvey, Tony Blair’s former diary secretary, and their new baby."

01 July 2011 JP Article - "Four months ago, a Guardian interviewer reported on the imminent birth of another child, with his then-fiancée Kate Garvey, a former diary secretary to British prime minister Tony Blair"

4 Mar 2011 Examiner.com Article - "According to his e-mail auto-reply, Wikipedia’s co-founder Jimmy Wales is on a “semi-holiday”, most likely to play the supporting role for Kate Garvey, the new mother of his second child. Garvey is British and is the former diary secretary of UK Prime Minister Tony Blair. Garvey and Wales are not married, as Wales is not yet legally divorced from his second wife, Christine, in Florida. That particularly drawn-out divorce case has been lagging in the Pinellas County court system since October 2009."

Conclusion - It's hard to initially verify with secondary sources Mr. Wales' place of residence. Sources from both February and November of this year say that he "is moving" to England. Sounds to me like he is basically living in between the UK and Florida. I'd be for either 1) deleting "Residence" from the infobox or 2) putting both Florida and England in.

Comment - Can't find sources for the location of Mr. Wales' residence in England, or info on exactly when he got married/had his second child. Mr. Wales appears to have a degree of anonymity in this regard. I wonder if he likes it that way........ I would have thought that Jimbo, who is my own personal rock star, would have some kind of People magazine style expose, covering the details of his marriage and personal life. I guess not. Perhaps Wikipedia isn't as sexy and tantalizing as Hollywood is. (sigh) NickCT (talk) 17:21, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

So it seems that the only reliable information is that, on 3 November 2011, it was reported that "he is moving to London", i.e. either "is in the process of moving" or "intends to move in the near future", and without any particular location in London being given. Since moving home can be a rather fluid process, and since "residence" implies some kind of permanence, there is simply not enough reliable evidence to support any change to the info box. I guess if he chose to tell us himself on this very page, that still wouldn't count as a reliable secondary source. Perhaps just WP:OR? Having not yet divorced may also be relevant, since joint ownership of a Florida property seems to also confer some rights to residence, until a court of law decides otherwise. So we will simply all just have to wait for the next media interview or official press release? Martinevans123 (talk) 21:30, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

re - "I guess if he chose to tell us himself on this very page, that still wouldn't count as a reliable secondary source" - Alas you guess right.

re - "So we will simply all just have to wait for the next media interview or official press release" - Do nothing, is perhaps the right solution here. NickCT (talk) 02:49, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

User account

Hi all,

I think there should be a link to User:Jimbo Wales in the See also section of this article.

Thanks,

The Doctahedron, 16:42, 27 December 2011 (UTC)
Note: "The Doctahedron" is not my user name. It is simply an alias by which I conceal my IP address.

• The standard (see WP:SEEALSO) is to link to Namespace pages only in the "See also" sections. I think it would set a bad precedent to link user pages from the namespace.--Rollins83 (talk) 13:52, 17 January 2012 (UTC)
  • It's not about precedent. It simply does not work on mirror sites. This is why hyperlinks specifically to Wikipedia must be external links:
    • {{cite web}}: "User talk:Jimbo Wales". English Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales. 
    • {{srlink}}: User talk:Jimbo Wales
  • Uncle G (talk) 22:57, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

"Ph.D" you either have one....or you don't

It seems rather strange to me that Mr Wales has on his page something he doesn't have. And that is a Ph.D. If he doesn't have a Ph.D, why mention it? I'm sure there are plenty of people that don't have degrees, or don't have a Masters or don't have any qualifications altogether....so are wikipedia editors going to mention all of them as well? .....very strange..I am so tempted to remove it, but I don't want to cause an edit-war. ...and by-the-way I don't have a Ph.D either....but I do have common sense.... Veryscarymary (talk) 14:35, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

I guess the only reason to mention he doesn't have a Ph.D would be if it was notable, like for example the first person to walk on the moon who doesn't have a Ph.D and so on. If anyone without a Ph.D can create a site of such magnitude than there is no reason to say he doesn't have one. 206.172.0.204 (talk) 22:48, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

No more opinions without an actionable proposal please. There have been a lot of offtopic rants here, and any discussion must be restricted to serious consideration of improvements to the article. The second paragraph of the introduction mentions the Ph.D. because the lead of an article is a summary of the main points, and the Ph.D. program/teaching was a significant step in his early life, as explained at Jimmy Wales#Early life and education. Johnuniq (talk) 23:07, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

File:L Sanger.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Respect

Apologies for the un proffesional headline, and for the possibility that this is in the wrong thread. However I spent half an hour trying to figure out where to post this. I would like to commend Mr. Wales and the entire Wikipedia team for their action on the SOPA bill currently happening. It is a true stand for democracy and I only wish I had something to offer this cause. It will be inconvient to lose Wikipedia, but the greater cause is worth the inconvience. Whenever I actually have available funds to donate, Wikipedia is the first on my list. Again, respect for this stand against the censorship and eventual goverment take over on the worlds last chance for a transperant democracy. Cheers, Alex. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.90.251.108 (talk) 09:39, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

This is the appropriate page for these comments. This talk page is specifically for the purpose of discussing improvements to the Jimmy Wales article. Not a big deal, though.--Rollins83 (talk) 14:02, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

The Wikipedia protest blackout, Wednesday, Jan.18.2012

This is big!! .!. It is important to this article about the Founder and leader of WP. http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/blogpost/post/wikipedia-blackout-coming-jan-18-says-co-founder-jimmy-wales/2012/01/16/gIQAh2Ke3P_blog.html Headline: “Wikipedia blackout coming Wednesday, says co-founder Jimmy Wales . . . If Wikipedia blacks out as promised, Wales expects an estimated 25 million daily visitors to be affected. [English-speaking]. His advice for students who might rely on the site: “Do your homework early.”

And Wikipedia editors and contributors can do their work ‘offline’ for a day.
Another ref.:[9] Charles Edwin Shipp (talk) 16:15, 17 January 2012 (UTC)

Divorce and second child

Would it be possible to update Wales' biography with confirmation of his divorce from Christine (http://pubtitlet.co.pinellas.fl.us/servlet/pcg.wsclient.servlet.CivilDocketServlet?CS__CASE=09011014FD&CS__RESULTS__KNT=10) and birth of his second child (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-24028957-mr-wikipedia-on-todays-blackout-moving-to-london-and-marrying-a-blair-babe.do)? - Pinellas FL records (talk) 13:24, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Y Done NickCT (talk) 16:27, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Note - I didn't add a reference for the second divorce. I think the primary source offered above is sufficient evidence that it is actually complete. NickCT (talk) 16:29, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

== Once and for all, founder or co-founder? ==

Either the WMF was "economical with the actualité" in its press release here or the stated co-founder's (revisionist?) claim here, restored by a recent edit, is ditto. Which is it? Writegeist (talk) 07:39, 23 January 2012 (UTC)