Talk:Assassination of John F. Kennedy

What this talk page is for

I can't believe you've taken so much time to debate things with this 109 guy. He's just endlessly hopping from point to point, avoiding any real discussion of anything.

Hey, 109, your appalling spelling and grammar are rather at odds with your claim to be a published author and not bothering to sign your posts with either a name or a username doesn't help. If you've read the Warren Report, say so. If you haven't, say so. If you have any properly sourced evidence that back up your assertions, then show us. Shouting down anyone who disagrees with you as a stooge of the conspirators doesn't make you sound any more credible.

This discussion page is about the Wikipedia article not your theories on the assassination or a page for hectoring those who disagree with you. There is another article dealing with the various alternative theories as to what happened. Wikipedia has to narrow its scope to a certain extent in order to be a useful information resource. For example, on another page (about the actor James Robertson Justice), I was unable to correct his date and place of birth because all the published sources state the incorrect one and the only evidence I have for the one I'm proposing is his birth certificate. Wikipedia thus stuck with a birth-date that was known to be wrong until a creditable source referenced the correct one. Wikipedia isn't a place to do research or publish theories; it's a place to reference already published, creditable sources. If you can produce information that complies with Wikipedia's defined standards, then do so. And look, here's four tildes which will magically transform into a username. Please try it. Kodabar (talk) 18:23, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I echo Kodabar's comments - this page is ONLY for discussing specific improvements to the page, based on reliably sourced material - not the place for theorizing or posting pictures to make one's case. I've moved the previous material to archive - can we get back on track here to discuss this specific article please. Tvoz/talk 18:52, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm just as guilty for getting in a shouting match here. But to underline why this page largely describes the conclusions of the Warren Commission and HSCA despite the fact that since about 1966 the majority of Americans doubt those conclusions: Those conclusions are the conclusions of the official investigations, and are specifically and consistently identified as such. These investigations are exhaustive in a way that NONE of the conspiracy authors are, and as mentioned below in fact form the source for much of the evidence in dispute. The fact that there are disputes over these conclusions are mentioned in the lede and in the sections describing conspiracy theories. As for why we don't discuss the assassination from, say, the views of those who suggest a second gunman at the grassy knoll, there are very good practical reasons. One, there is no, single, counter-theory to the Warren Commission, certainly none which a large segment of society subscribe to. Indeed, there are likely hundreds of counter-theories. (Indeed, the HSCA DOES suggest a grassy knoll gunman and a conspiracy, which is mentioned. IOW, the conclusion of one of the official investigations is "conspiracy.") Second, almost ALL of the conspiracy theories reference the Warren Commission and the HSCA, and almost all use the evidence gathered by those bodies to come to their conclusions. So to build this article around the views of a leading conspiracy author would omit the main source for the evidence cited. Canada Jack (talk) 02:37, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure why 109's response in french was removed - it pertained to this debate. The fact he made a point in french in response to a dig at his spelling and grammar (english being a second language) so he made his point in his mother tongue should mean his comments stay. But a response to his point as to why when the majority view is that there was a conspiracy this page reflects the non-conspiracy view of the WC: The page in fact largely reflects the WC and HSCA investigations, the latter of which concluded "conspiracy." However, most of the WC conclusions (such as the SBT, involvement of LHO) were confirmed by the HSCA. The underlying problem with the "conspiracy" angle is there are literally hundreds of versions of what "really" happened so there is no agreed-upon scenario to feature. For example, one can embrace the SBT yet also conclude "conspiracy," as the HSCA did. The ONLY well-known complete investigations were carried out by the WC and HSCA, hence the page is largely built on their conclusions (one of which, I repeat, concluded "conspiracy"). Is "conspiracy" ignored? No. It's mentioned in the lede, there is a section on this page discussing it, and there are separate pages devoted exclusively to the theories, and some theories have their own page. Canada Jack (talk) 15:07, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

...and since there have been several attempts to include material and reversions of same on this discussion page... let's be clear here. If there is an issue of why we largely report what the WC and the HSCA concluded, while giving relatively short shrift to other interpretations, that I believe is answered above. And that discussion, since it directly pertains to the page, should be here. But simply inserting material like "how come the WC ignored this material..." etc does NOT belong here as that is debating the particulars of the assassination rather than improving the page per se. As said above, I am just as guilty as others in extending discussion on issues which don't properly belong here. But it is not "censorship" to remove this material when, as mentioned before as well there are numerous pages exploring the various issues which some see as indicating conspiracy, etc. Canada Jack (talk) 16:14, 3 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:48, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

---

John F. Kennedy assassination → Assassination of John F. Kennedy – Rationale: see other assassination articles, including 1, 2, 3, et al.--Huh direction (talk) 19:42, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

• Support per nom and consistency. - Darwinek (talk) 13:04, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
• Support as nominator.--Huh direction (talk) 17:34, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

File:Jfk funeral arlington.JPG Nominated for Deletion

	An image used in this article, File:Jfk funeral arlington.JPG, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests July 2011 What should I do?
	A discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. If you feel the deletion can be contested then please do so (commons:COM:SPEEDY has further information). Otherwise consider finding a replacement image before deletion occurs. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 23:11, 13 July 2011 (UTC)

have a fue things and wasent sure if u were intrested?

i have a Daily Kennebec Journal an (EXTRA) the papor was established in 1825 vol. cxxx11-no.279 Augusta Maine Friday November 22 1963 President Kennedy Shot To Death with pitcure perfect just like the day it was delivered,, and a red hard cover book (The torch is passed its the associated press story of the death of a president,,, it to is in great shape,,,just was not sure if they were something u would be intrested in

                thank you  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.173.87.99 (talk) 02:33, 22 July 2011 (UTC) 

Edit to the Conspiracy Theory section.

After the sentence ending with "—or perhaps some combination of these." I had added the following:

(some speculate that Johnson masterminded the assassination, but that he had arranged for either the Mafia, or the CIA [between the two, the line is quite blurry] to carry out the attack...the latter of which either in concordance with E. Howard Hunt, or at the very least with his knowledge [see: E. Howard Hunt deathbed confession])

...and an editor (Sören Koopmann talk) reverted my edit and contacted me. I fully acknowledge the unattractive vernacular of that entire sentence/paragraph. I simply often find it difficult to accurately describe the information whilst using satisfying grammar, and I am constantly trying to find ways to (literally) perfect literally everything I write, I just don't always succeed. In any case, I thought it a good compromise to simply change the link to the E Howard Hunt page to a link to the Conspiracy Allegations/Death section of the E. Howard Hunt page. Apparently the editor didn't agree; he reverted it back. I strongly feel that this would've been a good compromise, but more importantly that it would've been a better option than simply linking it to the E. Howard Hunt page. I realize it's a minor change, but it could make a big difference. More importantly, I think when it comes to these conspiracy type of topics, it is extremely important that any & all theories/hypotheses are discussed and included in articles, as information on these topics is dodgy and unverifiable, and any of the given theories could be the correct one. If nobody else objects to this edit, I would like to change it back again.

Psychonaut25 (13375p34k!) 1:42 PM EST, 26 July 2011

Not sure how Howard Hunt rises to the level of being one of the major players here needed to be mentioned. "CIA" is sufficient on this page, just as we don't list the various Mafia leaders said to be involved as "Mafia" suffices. There are literally hundreds of theories of who may have been behind the assassination, which is why we list many of them on the conspiracy page. And literally hundreds of scenarios as to how these various players were involved with each other. It is definitely NOT important to spell out each and every one of these theories, at least not on this page. Canada Jack (talk) 18:17, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Right, but all I am asking is that we link the E. Howard Hunt text to a sub-section of the E. Howard Hunt page, instead of to the page by itself. That isn't spelling out any of the theories, but Hunt did have quite a logical deathbed confession, and considering his connections to the intelligence community and also the fact that it was a deathbed confession, not just some confession, make the information much more reliable. However again, I'm not asking to add that whole long sentence I butchered there, I'm just asking to change the E. Howard Hunt link slightly. Do you really think that's a big problem? It basically gives just as much of a chance to all of the other theories too, since it doesn't involve explaining anything, as I had originally proposed. However I do think his testimony holds a lot more weight than many of the other "theories" out there, some of which are reasonable but some of which are downright arbitrary. I find Hunt's confession to be one of the most likely scenarios; I realize this is just my opinion but many of the different theories, if you pay attention to them, often seem like they're all different versions of the same story told slightly differently, from which one could deduce that certain events probably did happen and certain others probably didn't. In any case, that isn't important. I just want to change the link a little bit. Do you really object to that?

Psychonaut25 (13375p34k!) 5:42 PM EST, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

To quote the Rolling Stone article[1] on Hunt’s “confession,” Hunt’s big reveal consisted of giving his son, “two sheets of paper that contained a fuller narrative. It starts out with LBJ again, connecting him to Cord Meyer, then goes on: "Cord Meyer discusses a plot with [David Atlee] Phillips who brings in Wm. Harvey and Antonio Veciana. He meets with Oswald in Mexico City. . . . Then Veciana meets w/ Frank Sturgis in Miami and enlists David Morales in anticipation of killing JFK there.”

In other words, Hunt’s “confession” actually clears Hunt himself, while accusing eight other people (seven of whom are deceased and can’t respond) of complicity in murdering the President. He offers no evidence, but hints that he might reveal a great deal more…provided he’s paid a lot of money.

The big “hook” in the whole business is the strong suggestion that Hunt really was one of the three tramps arrested in Dallas on the day of the assassination. As if it wasn’t long ago proven that the “tramp” in question was Mr. Gus W. Abrams. Joegoodfriend (talk) 00:51, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Okay, I can accept/respect what you're saying, but again, my question hasn't been answered. This is such a minor edit and it really doesn't do anything to suggest that Hunt's claims are true, all it's doing is associating Hunt's own association/possible involvement in the assassination (as implied by his mention in this article at all) with his claims about the assassination, instead of just to himself. I really was trying to compromise here. I don't think that implies any speculation about the validity of the claims one way or the other; it's simply associating him with his claims a bit more clearly. Again I know it's a minor edit, I just really feel like people aren't getting what I'm saying here. And I had said before, though a minor edit it is, I feel it noteworthy enough information to warrant this minor edit.

Psychonaut25 (13375p34k!) 4:44 AM EST, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Sure, it's a minor edit, but a quick look at the text as it stands reveals that Hunt was only recently inserted. We are not here to determine who is more credible, or what is the most plausible conspiracy claim. But what I am saying is that, unlike the other mentioned players - Castro, LBJ, the Mafia, anti-Castro elements, the CIA, the Eastern Bloc - Hunt is relatively obscure. I mean, I could make a good argument that certain particular Mafia heads were more plausibly behind the assassination (it's what drove the HSCA investigation after all, the working assumption all along). Why not insert Carlos Marcello? No need. Hunt and many of the others are covered on the conspiracy page. So, My suggestion is to simply omit Hunt as he falls under the general heading of "CIA." Canada Jack (talk) 14:20, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Fine, but I won't omit it, I'm just leaving it as-is.

I can appreciate why you say that though; now that I really think about it I realize that Hunt's confession wasn't an admission of guilt; his story claimed that he knew who'd been involved but not that he was directly involved himself after declining an offer to take part (But ultimately I think he was the first person, in the intelligence community anyway, to claim that Johnson had orchestrated the whole thing). This is the only part of his story I find the least bit suspicious, as keeping his name clear even after death could be important to a person, sure. Although I'd never believed he was any of the three tramps.

The only reason I won't omit him is because this is enough for him to be directly associated with (in the mind of many people) the Assassination, even if he played no role. Few members of the public do know, or do claim to know, what exactly happened that day and his claiming that he did know (and his laying his claims and/or knowledge out for the listeners) makes him a part of that narrative in history, whether the claims are true or not. Because we simply don't know if any of the claims about "the big event" are true or not (except the magic bullet thing...I think any reasonable person knows he was shot from the side; from the knoll/book depository parking lot, and also that there were multiple gunmen), so all of them are associated with it.

Although I do wish there was some better (i.e. more grammatically satisfying to read) way to explain the very blurry line between Mafia and C.I.A. people, since the C.I.A. have long contracted out, hired as operatives, or just generally associated with various members of organized crime, namely Mafia. JFK was once quoted as saying something to the effect of, "If there ever is a coup in the United States, it will without a doubt be carried out by the C.I.A."

Psychonaut25 (13375p34k!) 6:50 AM EST, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

The only reason I won't omit him is because this is enough for him to be directly associated with (in the mind of many people) the Assassination, even if he played no role. Uh, it's not "enough" that some believe he was involved, I could (literally) produce a list of 100+ people of which each individual named have "some" believe they were involved. Which is why the list here is quite short, limited to several very prominent people (LBJ, Castro) and organizations (CIA, Mafia, FBI, etc). Canada Jack (talk) 14:11, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

hi call me he told coretta scott. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.204.151.190 (talk) 20:30, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

in the current version, the photo that is captioned "Looking south, with the pergola and knoll behind the photographer: the X on the street marks the approximate position of Kennedy in the limousine at the moment of the fatal head shot" is not the location where JFK was at Zapruder frame #313. Employing a surveyed map of the plaza and calculating photogrammatical angles measurements shows that photo is actually where some persons theorize the first shot was fired, and, have also marked Elm Street with another "X" mark, near the large oak tree - the shadow of that tree is also clearly seen in the photo, and there are no trees close to the street near JFK's true Zapruder frame #313 location. A new photo of the real Z-313 spot is needed, or, the existing photo needs its caption corrected

Contested deletion

This page should not be speedily deleted because... No reason was given for its deletion. It obviously has historical importance, is supported by considerable third-party research, etc. I suspect the petition for deletion was caused by someone's emotional response to the fact that today is the anniversary of JFK's assassination. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.83.186.124 (talk) 17:43, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

File:CE2892.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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