Talk:John Howard

Who throws a shoe? Honestly!

I'm curious about why there's a mention of that shoe throwing clown from Q&A, does any joe with an opinion suddenly become a notable figure or poster boy of dissent whose opinion suddenly matters when they chuck a shoe at someone? Plenty of people have strong opinions about him which is fine, he was a politician, but what exactly makes this guys little protest even worth a passing mention? And on that, he was doing a bit more than just 'promoting his autobiography' on the show as the article implies. Farticus1981 (talk) 06:25, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

What was that "bit more"? The source seems to suggest that he was there to promote his book. With an audience there it created a chance for discussion of issues like Iraq, Hicks and Stolen Generation, all of which, of course, are topics of the book. As for whether the shoe throwing is notable, it did get a lot of media attention at the time. (And probably indirectly benefited book sales!) To me, perhaps the more notable aspect of the story was the bit about David Hicks asking Howard about his incarceration at Gitmo. HiLo48 (talk) 07:17, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Not notable at all. It should be removed. unfortunately, Aust political articles are filled with tidbit headlines from the moment rather than researching for info on significant policy and issues, and their consequences. For example, Paul Keating's article has a section "Post politics" which is longer than his PM section and is basically a rolling list of Keatings comments as they appear in the newspaper. So, actually the Howard article is not the worst in this aspect.--Merbabu (talk) 07:30, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I probably didn't distil my comment properly. I do agree that the shoe throwing itself wasn't notable. HiLo48 (talk) 07:35, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

The 'bit more' was taking questions from the audience for pretty much the entire show on whatever topic they felt like asking a question about. The article only says he was there promoting his autobiography, of course he was doing the rounds in the media at the time promoting his book, his appearance on Q&A was a lot more than that.

If the question by Hicks for example is more notable (there's someone whose book can do with a little scrutiny, just for the understatement of the decade) isn't it a bit sad that a sideshow takes its place? Farticus1981 (talk) 07:42, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

There were three people there that night who actively sought and succeeded in gaining media attention, Howard, Hicks and the shoe thrower. Best we ignore them all on this occasion. HiLo48 (talk) 08:06, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

HiLo48 if we are to take your advice (ignoring all 3) even howard shouldn't have a mention here. i think the shoeing incident is noteworthy because 1. it gained international attention. 2. people who are often targets of shoeing are so because of something perceived to be controversial, i.e. specific policies. 3. shoeing, particularly after the infamous bush incident has sparked numerous copycat incidents internationally. Marxwasright (talk) 23:54, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I think my point is there under your number 3. There HAVE BEEN numerous copycat incidents. Too many for this one alone to be significant. It was a transient, now long gone, PR event. Nobody was harmed. Not notable. HiLo48 (talk) 05:36, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Anders Behring Breivik

i don't understand why section on Anders Behring Breivik is not considered noteworthy or neutral. Marxwasright (talk) 02:37, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedia article about the second longest serving Prime Minister of Australia, the fact that he received a tiny mention in 1,500 pages of ramblings by Breivik is in no way a significant part of his life. Your addition was:

On 26 July 2011, it was revealed that Norwegian mass murderer and right-wing terrorist Anders Behring Breivik praised Howard for his particular stance on Islamic migrants and border security and that the former Prime Minister 'has repeatedly proven to be one of the most sensible leaders in the Western world.'

What is Howard's "particular stance on Islamic migrants", and why is Breivik introduced as a "mass murder and right-wing terrorist" in this context? That sort of commentary should be left to Breivik's article. If this is to be mentioned here (which I am opposed to), he should described as "perpetrator of the 2011 Norway attacks", not "mass murder and right-wing terrorist".  -- Lear's Fool 03:33, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

The wiser critics of Howard did not suggest that he was racist, but rather that he was clever at convincing racists and bigots that he supported their position, and therefore, if they were Australians, they would vote for him. He did this by using words that could be interpreted in several ways, and therefore defended by him and his supporters as not racist. It was his way of capturing the One Nation vote. To me, it was one of the most significant aspects of Howard's political style. That someone from the other side of the globe demonstrates this is of interest to me at least. I don't expect a mass audience of Wikipedia editors to even recognise that perspective at this stage, but to me this is VERY significant. HiLo48 (talk) 05:27, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

A discussion of Howard's alleged dog whistling on refugee policy (if supported by reliable sources) is fine by me, but this piece of trivia is entirely the wrong way to include it.  -- Lear's Fool 06:36, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

To have a Norwegian mass murderer and terrorist single out and praise a previous PM of Australia is definately significant, but only worth a passing mention in a wider section. Timeshift (talk) 06:40, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) And by-the-by, the Tampa was a Norwegian vessel, it's hardly unexpected that a Norwegian national would have heard of Howard's refugee policies.  -- Lear's Fool 06:41, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

(To Timeshift) Single out? It's a couple of sentences in a 1,500 page document that refers to hundreds of international conservative figures.  -- Lear's Fool 06:45, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

When I say single out I refer to Howard, a previous PM, being singled out from a line of Australian PMs. We are only a country of 20mil who are generally considered to have moderate political ideologies. Timeshift (talk) 06:49, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I come down on the side of Lear's Fool. This shouldn't be in the article on Howard at all. If notorious criminal X mentioned Mickey Mouse's left foot as an inspiration for his crime should it go in the Mickey Mouse article? No. Donama (talk) 06:51, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

Silly analogy. Mickey Mouse has never (to my knowledge at least) aggressively sought votes from notorious criminals. HiLo48 (talk) 08:11, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

i'm prepared to drop mass murderer and right wing terrorist (i still don't think this violates neutrality - most of the media have been calling him this) but i still think it's significant that the perpetrator in such an historic tragic event spoke so highly of howard. i was merely trying to summarize with "particular stance on Islamic migrants" without using the whole section of quotes or text attributed to howard by breivik but if this was not clear then perhaps they all need to be reproduced. Marxwasright (talk) 06:56, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

A better analogy is Al Gore and the Unabomber. We don't include the fact that Ted Kaczynski was strongly influenced by Earth in the balance on Gore's page (because Gore had nothing to do with Kaczyinski). The same principle applies here. Howard didn't endorse Breivik's actions, nor have any contact with him before the attack or after. Howard's mention in the manifesto belongs, if at all, on the Breivik page in a long list of other people he quoted. To include it here is a pretty clear BLPvio, IMHO.--Yeti Hunter (talk) 10:21, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

And that's exactly what Howard's approach was designed to achieve. He (and you) can deny that it has anything to do with him. His strategy has worked. I won't try to push the point any more, but I just hope people will think about it and, over time, see how sneakily clever (and nasty) he was. HiLo48 (talk) 10:54, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

i'm not suggesting howard endorsed breivik's actions. i tend do agree with Lear's Fool's discussion of Howard's alleged dog whistling on refugee policy (or any other policies) if they can be substantiated. to my knowledge there have already been a few articles written about (not just howard but) generally speaking government/media responsiblity/accountability or lack there of in the case. Marxwasright (talk) 11:08, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

I see yeti hunter has an obvious bias, perhaps yeti is codeword for another entity which is bigger wiser more ethnic and thus scarier than you?IraqiLion (talk) 11:54, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

East Timor

I think, and I can never quite work out why, Howard's actions about East Timor are often not given due weight. It is arguable that his actions, directly or indirectly resulted in East Timor being decolonised by Indonesia, and getting independance. The indirect actions of Howard, and his direct actions with the UN basically led to the creation of a new country, and indirectly resulted in a colonising power removing its forces. Historically, this is pretty important stuff, and also quite possibly put Australian in a position where it could have had a military conflict with Indonesia. This is a major deal! Deathlibrarian (talk) 04:06, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Just find a reliable source that says so, and add appropriate content to the article. HiLo48 (talk) 07:10, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The secession of ET from Indonesia was indeed a major deal. However, it is well and truly overstating significance to say that Howard was behind it. His role is often overplayed in Australian sources but not all, and non-AUstralian sources tend to provide a bit more balanced description. And, there are a number of sources who criticised the handling of it. Some called the chaos and the collapse of relations with Indonesia a international relations disaster - I'm not necessarily saying that's correct, just providing another POV to the "Howard saved ET" POV . There was a whole lot more going on than Howard's single letter to Habibie. And, yes it was a big deal for Australia, but that's different to crediting Howard with freeing East TImor. It's a given a full paragraph in this article, which is no less than any other of the major issues of his PMship - and that paragraph is longer than most in this article. --Merbabu (talk) 07:11, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Actually, is it just a general comment, or do you have a specific problem with the existing text? If so, what is it? The text looks pretty good I thought - and as for word count, it's got more words written about than most of the other topics in the article. cheers --Merbabu (talk) 09:47, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Anti-Islamic

Im adding a section taht details howards anti-Islamic nature. I have multiple references http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/nation/pope-row-in-past-pm-tells-muslims/story-e6frg6nf-1111112238892, http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/11/14/1068674353583.html?from=storyrhs, http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/mi/1/mi1kuhn.pdf, and many more. This little boy CLEARLY has something against the Islamic people and I am beyond anger that this is not mentioned on his page, perhaps some racism from other wikipedia editors?IraqiLion (talk) 07:28, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I AM SEEING RED I JUST PUNCHED A HOLE IN THE WALL WHY! CANT! I! EDIT! THIS! I! HAVE! AN! ACCOUNT!!!!! HOW FUCKING RACIST IS THIS FUCKING SITE?!?!??!?!?! YOU WANNA FUCK WITH ME!!!!

I'm not certain of the terminology, but I think reason you can't edit is that you're still seen as a new editor here. You'll note that your name still appears in red in article histories. You need to have made some minimum number of edits elsewhere before you can edit protected articles like this one. That applies to all new users.

As for your perspective on Howard, if you look carefully at those sources you will see that you could not use them to say that Howard was anti-Muslim. You could use them to say that many accused him of using anti-Muslim sentiment among parts of Australian society to improve his electoral chances. He was a clever politician. HiLo48 (talk) 07:38, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Listen to my words, you are not a clever person, howard was a stupid racist, this is all common knowledge, how can you say he was clever with his statements that you will see if you bothered to read the links my brother?? When does an accusation become reality? Does it take a european christian controlled newspaper to dicate what is real and what is speculation on wikipeida? Are you seriously saying that commentary from a Muslim only constitutes opinion whereas the herald sun and new york times constitute truth? if you somehow think I am mistaken do feel free to make an attempt to point this out but you will not be able toIraqiLion (talk) 07:59, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

You make a personal attack and then state Yeti Hunter made a personal attack, right.... Yeti Hunter comment was off topic (per WP:TALK), however it wasn't attack but your comments have contained attacks. Also please read WP:OR, WP:NPOV, WP:BLP, WP:NPA and WP:CIVIL. Bidgee (talk) 12:05, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

http://www.theage.com.au/national/letters/howard-racist-exmalaysian-mp-20100701-zqif.html This is from the FORMER DEPUTY SPEAKER OF MALAYSIA!!! THIS IS NOT A NEWSPAPER THIS IS A COUNTRY A LEADER IN A COUNTRY TELL ME HOW YOU CAN DISCREDIT THAT!!!IraqiLion (talk) 08:04, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

This should be good. *grabs popcorn* Yeti Hunter (talk) 09:26, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

HiLo48, I am sorry, but this subject has me very passionate. And Yeti Hunter, that was hardly constructive, please refrain from making personal attacks. I intend to add this information to this article and I am willing to make a compromise in which the information is toned down to make him seem less bad, but I digress, he was most definetely anti-Islamic, and at the very least he was 100% racist. His handling of the Tampa boat affair proves this beyond a doubt. I am new to this website this is true, if I am breaking a rule could you please help me? Thankyou =)IraqiLion (talk) 09:46, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, I'll try a little more. What we write about people here can't be your own opinion. It has to reflect what the sources say. And they didn't say that Howard was anti-Muslim. They said that some people claimed that he made use of existing anti-Muslim feelings in society to enhance his electoral chances. That's the most extreme thing you could possibly get away with saying, and you would have to reference it back to those sources very clearly. I personally don't like Howard at all, and happen to agree with those sources, but that's irrelevant here. HiLo48 (talk) 11:42, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

If you don't like howard either why are we fighting when we know the truth of his racism? Why would you not help me and hold me down? You are lying to encourage my behaviour and get me blocked, you are not the first to do this on this website. On the off chance you are on the side of truth and justice (I will not be pulled into little games) you must help me find sources. The ICC affair is very good as many world leaders openly stated that his racism stopped them from allowing him to be the chairman. If I find a source to do with this and I add it, as multiple world leaders opinions of him, not as truth but as important peoples opinions will you try to stop me? We must work together to stop some aussie from doing what he did again, what with statements that support a xenophobic popeIraqiLion (talk) 11:50, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm guessing that by ICC you mean the cricket body, not the criminal court. Yes, it would be interesting to see if there were precise quotes of what other countries' leaders said. Perhaps they could be used. See what you can find. (Right now I'm going to bed.) HiLo48 (talk) 11:55, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Hahaha, yes of course I forgot about the International Criminal Court =) Ironic, that Howard may get arrested in the future for his involvement in the Iraq war by one ICC and banished from being leader of another lol no I'm only joking =)IraqiLion (talk) 12:10, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

If you think Wikipedia is all about the truth, you need to read Wikipedia:Verifiability, not truth. -- Jack of Oz ^{[your turn]} 20:17, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Any attempt to load this article with (tiresome) "Howard is a racist" opinions will have to be carefully balanced against the record of Howard as the a PM who ran the (to that time) largest and most diverse immigration intakes in Australian history. Any attempt to suggest that supporting the wars against the Taliban and Saddam Hussein, or instigating new national security laws in the face of terrorist bomb threats in the aftermath of September 11 amounts to being "anti-Muslim" will struggle not to collapse under the weight of their own il-logic.Observoz (talk) 13:25, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

This character has been (mercifully) indefinitely blocked. Can we now move on, and let's not waste any more time. cheers --Merbabu (talk) 19:23, 17 February 2012 (UTC)