Talk:Jorge Luis Borges

Vandalism

The "" and "Early Writing Career" sections of this page has clearly been vandalized. Quite a few references to pornography and incorrect dates have been injected. I'll try to make corrections where I can. The other sections of this page seem to be unaffected. Tms9980 (talk) 18:55, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Nice try

The "Sexuality" section makes an effort to obliquely attribute inversion to Borges, but can't seem to make it stick. However, it is a good attempt to bring this article into line with all other Wikipedia biographical articles. Lestrade (talk) 22:03, 6 November 2009 (UTC)Lestrade

Jorge Luis Borges bibliography

Hey all,

The Jorge Luis Borges bibliography page is in dire need of clean-up and correction, so head over there!

TuckerResearch (talk) 05:29, 1 January 2010 (UTC)

We could all be dumber for having read this in its entirety. Good justification for libraries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.4.227.200 (talk) 20:23, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

Tidy

I have tidied up the references and external links and added some references, though I will continue to research and add citations for the many sections that are unref'd. There is some concision of repeated themes, such as Borges's multi-cultural influences and his writings on Argentine culture. I'm sure there is a lot more concision needed in Influences, collaborations, and themes. I have cut little out, no sections were removed. A Notes section is added. Onwards and upwards! Best wishes Spanglej (talk) 21:46, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Legacy section

I suggest we cut the "Legacy" section. It is mostly a list of media inspired by Hesse's works. Every famous artist has hundreds of people who are inspired by their work. The list is not comprehensive or notable, in my view. WP:TRIV says "Trivia sections should be avoided." Any objections? Thanks Spanglej (talk) 04:07, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Swedenborgianism

Other than imitating the style, and writing a book he falsely claimed was a translation of Swedenborg, the article gives no indication that Borges subscribed to Swedenborg's philosophy. Therefore, I have removed the relevant category as unjustified. ---RepublicanJacobite_{The'FortyFive'} 03:37, 2 October 2010 (UTC)

Copyright problem

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Google Doodle

The google doodle is pointing at this page (24th August 2011) perhaps it should be semi-protected whilst that is happening? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.146.50.249 (talk) 23:09, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree. It's already being blanked. Span (talk) 23:26, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Regarding the doodle, I am going to add its mention to the International Renown section. Borges is too influential a figure to have the sole "Borges in popular culture" section be the inclusion of a Google Doodle. If that section is created with more references, we can move it back in.

Vincent Moon (talk) 22:09, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Actually, that idea doesn't make sense. Hmmm, perhaps I could make a small influence section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vincent Moon (talk • contribs) 22:12, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Many great FAs have no IPC section at all, William Shakespeare, Bette Davies, Emily Dickinson, W. B. Yeats for example. Discussion of Borges' international renown is mentioned throughout the article. I don't think a mention on Google for one day is not a significant event in the 112 year history of Borges. It smacks for recentism to me. Span (talk) 23:08, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree wholeheartedly with Span. It does not belong. Jujutacular ^talk 23:15, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

O.R. titling

The title ==Multiculturalism and Argentine literature== and the sub-title ===Multiculturalism=== are the invention of an anon ip 64.81.67.110 near ten years back. They were not supported by refs, the refs that are given were added later. These refs are actually of a biography and a review of Borge and they do not contain the words multiculturalism/multicultural/multicultist anywhere within them. These titles are therefore not valid.Gaius Octavius Princeps (talk) 09:51, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

If you have concerns now you're glad you didn't see the article before the anon changes then. It was really quite condescending toward Borges; alternate contributors would swing the pendulum the other way and make him a mouthpiece for their favored perspectives. So my take on the history of the section 10 years ago is somewhat different. By now it's morphed and improved much. The "Multicultural Influences" subsection is presently defensible, far more so than previous iterations I've seen. The word "multicultural" is an anachronism though maybe it's OK, but the text is still a bit rambling and could be greatly improved merely by being ordered chronologically. The Borges and Williamson quotes read to me like footnotes, backing up assertions in the text, not text worthy themselves. The mention of the James brothers and Reyes alike seem out of place.

What's missing here is related to what's missing in the Criticism subsection, which lacks material about politically motivated critics who he contended with during Nazi and Peron periods. Then, the Multicultural Influences subsection should cross reference such new material in Criticism, that he faced criticism and oppression for these non-nationalist leanings. We don't have to hit people over the head with more cosmopolitanism.

Incidentally, in the text immediately leading to the Multicultural section--of course there are camels in the Koran! Repeating Borges' error on this matter doesn't seem too encyclopedic.

I appreciate what people have done with this article, thanks to contributors whose stuff stuck and thanks for keeping only those things I contributed that were useful. munge (talk) 06:38, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

The section heading is "Multiculturalism and Argentine literature", that is what the section is about. It discusses the tensions between the multi-culturalist influences and Argentine identity which ran through Argentine culture at the time, an exploration that ran through much of Borges work. That is what the section on Martín Fierro is about, internationally offering post-colonial "Argentine models without pandering to his readers or framing Argentine culture as 'exotic'". (The given reference Takolander, Maria (2007) Catching butterflies: bringing magical realism to ground Peter Lang). The questions of how to now place themselves on the global stage, how to solidify their own identity without becoming a cliche, insulated by nationalism or annexing themselves outright by colonial rejectionism, these were dilemmas many ex-colonial nations faced:

"While the majority of his fiction is culturally pluralistic, this is attributable not to any antipathy towards Latin America but to two main ideological factors. One of these is his philosophy of liberal humanism. Borges' fiction is not only commonly universal in its subject matter, it is also typically universalist in its theoretical implications. This globalist vision by no means implies a renunciation of his nation, but it does involve a repudiation of nationalism. Borges denounced nationalism, with its insularity, exaltation of cultural purity and inherent propensity for intolerance, as 'the main affliction of our times' and encouraged people to 'be citizens of the world'". The given reference Takolander, Maria (2007) Catching butterflies: bringing magical realism to ground Peter Lang Pub Inc pp.53-60 ISBN 3-03911-193-0 discusses the questions at length. " The Argentine Writer and Tradition (1951), is a key document in Borges's aesthetic, a defense of literary cosmopolitanism in reply to Iberophiles and nativists both." Source given Borges and His Fiction

This is set against the background of Argentina's multi-cultural make up post-independance (1816). "Massive immigrations from Italy, Eastern Europe, and (to a lesser degree) the British Isles would inevitably transform the Argentine demography, particularly that of the capital, which became, like New York, a cosmopolitan city... It is the non-Hispanic, cosmopolitan, European drift in Argentina's national history, then, with its vivid incarnation in the urban metropolis, that underlies and sustains Borges's bold proposal that the Argentine writer make use of "all of Western culture" — which is to say, the entirety of European and local phenomena… Borges's general theory grows out of his concrete practice as an Argentine writer of the cosmopolitan type. Poised on the periphery in a remote Western outpost, Borges takes on whole chunks of European experience—the Greek myths, the Roman Empire, early Christian doctrine, medieval Islamic thought, Jewish mysticism, academic theology, philosophical idealism, French symbolism, Victorian orientalism, Irish republicanism, English sleuth yarns and spy thrillers—and then remakes these variegated disciplines, subcultures, and genres (playfully, ironically, irreverently, fancifully, sometimes magically) into fresh forms and new structures...And though his universalism is obviously essential to his work, it is something picked up on native ground, through family ties and from wide reading at home. [With] his seven years as a late adolescent and young adult in Europe, and his globetrotting dating from the 1960s, Borges's life and work are experientially rooted in the world of Buenos Aires." Given source Borges and His Fiction Bell-Villada, Gene. "As early as 1925 he was writing and arguing the case for a new and strange cosmopolitanism which would also make a hero of the local." "He wrote in support of a cultural openness, an Argentine cosmopolitanism". Given source "Don’t abandon me" Colm Tóibín. Borges wrote " I travelled up and down Argentina and Uruguay, lecturing on Swedenborg, Blake, the Persian and Chinese mystics, Buddhism, gauchesco poetry, the Icelandic sagas, Heine, Dante, expressionism and Cervantes." Source given Borges and His Fiction.

To reference the deep influence of multi-culturalism from within and without Argentina, within his own family, from political, literary, post-colonial, nationalist and linguistic points of view is not original research, it's in the sources given in the article. 'Universalism', 'cosmopolitanism', 'pluralism' are commonly used in the sources if the word 'multiculturalism' is not. To reduce the headings to cover Argentine culture is to miss the point of the section. The titles may have been used in the article 10 years ago but the page was re-written last year with new sources added. Span (talk) 23:29, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

IPA Pronunciation

I am unable to do the edit myself, but there is an error in the pronunciation indicated in IPA. The first sound of "Borges" is transcribed with a [β], which represents a voiced bilabial fricative. This sound is only found between vowels in Spanish. The transcription should be a simple [b], a voiced bilabial stop, which is the pronunciation found in all non-intervocalic environments.

Edit request from Burningspork, 24 August 2011

In the section Anti-Communism, please correct "Estella Canto" to "Estela Canto" and link the name to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estela_Canto

Burningspork (talk) 13:19, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Done.Gaius Octavius Princeps (talk) 13:28, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 129.57.115.155, 24 August 2011

The current article states: OLD TEXT: "By the late 1950s, he had become completely blind, as had one of his best known predecessors, Paul Groussac, for whom Borges wrote an obituary.[9] Neither the coincidence nor the irony of his blindness as a writer escaped Borges". Without indicating what was ironic or coincidental about the blindness. What's missing is a mention of Borges' appointment to director of the National Library. I can be changed: SUGGESTED CHANGE: "By the late 1950s, he had become completely blind, as had one of his best known predecessors, Paul Groussac, for whom Borges wrote an obituary.[9] In 1955, he was nominated to the directorship of the National Library. Neither the coincidence nor the irony of his blindness as a writer escaped Borges." This also clears up confusion later in the article as it goes on to mention his activities in the position when we have not first stated that he received the position. Finally, reference 24. ^ Jorge Luis Borges, Seven Nights, A New Directions Book, 1984. Page 110. Can be changed from Page 110 to Page 109 to include the statements about his directorship nomination. Thanks so much! - MikeJfromVA@gmail.com 129.57.115.155 (talk) 15:45, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the comments. It's changed. Span (talk) 19:32, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Hoaxes, forgeries, and misdirection

Does anyone take seriously the idea that "Menard" was a hoax? (Similarly, "Tlon".) The issue of hoaxes is not a good place for the article to detail an interpretation of Menard as it does, which to me has more to do with Borges' views on translation or even satire than it has to the hoaxes theme.

In contrast the section omits key issues re the hoaxes theme. I propose section could be renamed Hoaxes, Forgeries, and Misdirection. If so then we can mention "Al Mutassim", "Herbert Quain", and "Three Versions of Judas" as at least potentially misleading to readers who might easily think them to be among Borges' critical nonfiction rather than his fiction. I think it's also reasonably encyclopedic to say that Borges' intentions (as to how his readers would perceive provenance) were ambiguous in such cases. I would not say that is true of "Menard" (or "Tlon") unless someone can produce a good reason.

It's fair to mention Carlyle and Butler in this context but that paragraph has redundancy; I also think the Borges quotes read more like a footnote rather than main text. munge (talk) 07:28, 23 September 2011 (UTC)

Please, do go for it, be bold. The article could use an expert eye, and some sourcing from scholarly texts, especially around themes. I'd love to see it worked up into an WP:GA at some point, and improved before that. Best wishes Span (talk) 14:41, 23 September 2011 (UTC)