Talk:Kosovo

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Contents


[edit] According to CIA Factbook, Population

Ethnic groups: Albanians 92%, other (Serb, Bosniak, Gorani, Roma, Turk, Ashkali, Egyptian) 8% (2008) [2] --12:45, 27 November 2011

[edit] Why is there a section on the genetics of Kosovo Albanians? This article is about Kosovo that includes Albanians, Serbs, Turks, Bosniaks, and others.

The section on the genetics of Kosovo Albanians in the demographics section is absurd to be included. It does not represent the total population of Kosovo that include other ethnic groups as mentioned in the subject headline. The section on genetics of Kosovo Albanians should be moved to the article about Albanians of Kosovo.--R-41 (talk) 02:00, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

You are correct. The supposed 'genetic make-up' of an ethnic group is not a topic relevant to an article on a contry or region. Eg, there is no "Genetics of French people" section in the article on France. The section has been removed. Slovenski Volk (talk) 10:33, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
Since the ethnic background of people in Kosovo is something that has been subject to persistent controversy in the past, and has fuelled serious conflict, I think coverage of this would be a very valuable - but it would be better to see something which covers other parts of the population, not just self-identified "albanians". (If the genetic background of people living in France were particularly interesting, I'd be happy to see it covered in the France article). bobrayner (talk) 13:12, 2 January 2012 (UTC)
The Genetic background is irrelevant. Too many editors here and even so-called 'scholars' make unequivocal conclusions based on highly tenuous data. The "genetic data" cannot show anything other than they all (Serbs, Albanians, Bosniaks, etc) are (i) actually rather related (ii) come from eastern Europe. It cannot tell us who is 'truly from Kosovo' and even if it could, it is irrelevant to western commentators. What matters is current majority and their political will. Slovenski Volk (talk) 00:11, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
And, there is a section on genetics of French [3], placed appropriately in the article on French people, not in the article on France. Likewise here, there are already genetics sections on Serbs and Albanians in relevant pages Slovenski Volk (talk) 00:25, 3 January 2012 (UTC)
So this section should be in Origin of the Albanians, or Albanians? 76.112.213.78 (talk) 23:07, 7 January 2012 (UTC)
Well, it's already here [4] Slovenski Volk (talk) 09:05, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with Republic of Kosovo?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
See also: Talk:Kosovo/Archive_27

This [5] discussion makes a very good point. Having two articles about Kosovo one as a geographical region, one as a political region is a violation of WP:NPOV. I suggest to read it, as I said makes good points especially when it's compared to South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Transnistria. 76.112.213.78 (talk) 00:40, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

  • Oppose - I fail to understand how this is a violation of NPOV - if anything, it's the opposite. Nobody disagrees that Kosovo is a place, but plenty of people disagree that it's an independent republic, and others disagree that it's a Serbian province. So, saying that the place is independent (or part of Serbia) is POV. So, this is intended to be a neutral article on the geography, population, ancient history, etc., and we have other articles covering the claimed political entities which complement this one whilst not giving the impression that the position of Wikipedia is that the Kosovo place is definitely independent or Serbian. The fact that other Wikipedia languages, or the Abkhazia etc. articles, handle this differently is irrelevant. Bazonka (talk) 09:01, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Also per Bazonka's comment: there aren't just two articles about Kosovo (one about Kosovo as a geographical region, and one about Kosovo as a political region). Actually there are at least three: Kosovo, Republic of Kosovo and Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija (if we weren't to count United Nations Interim Administration Mission in Kosovo). So this argument about existence of several different articles being POV is rather void, I'd say. Especially when compared to situation of having articles Taiwan and Republic of China - which, I think, is also a situation of having at least two articles about, somewhat, similar thing. --biblbroks (talk) 15:32, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. We had lots of polls on whether to split Kosovo. Despite certain editors repeatedly gaming the system, polls kept on returning the same consensus; "no". Then somebody went ahead and split the article anyway, there was an editwar, the wrong version got protected, and now we're here; a fait accompli. I would support a merge so that we're back in line with both consensus and with neutrality. --— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobrayner (talk • contribs) 14:41, 8 January 2012
When the split was done, the voices against it eventually subsided - I suppose because the arguments were not on their side. I am sorry if this doesn't sound like my best faith on your behalf but I must say it anyway: I don't remember reading anything coming from you which would suggest you had something (substantial) against the split. Also if I understand the Wikipedia's consensus building process correctly, the polls aren't a stable way to build one consensus. Discussion would usually be a better way. I am more inclined to the opinion that the consensus is more in line with the current situation as neutrality surely is. --biblbroks (talk) 15:13, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
The voices subsided because we got tired of being ignored by the edit warriors that kept the split alive. --Enric Naval (talk) 22:14, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
So even if it were how you describe it - that there was an edit war about this - the conclusion from your words remains the same: it wasn't that important to you. So I believe that there was consensus for the split after all. --biblbroks (talk) 12:08, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support. It's a violation of NPOV. "Nobody disagrees that Kosovo is a place, but plenty of people disagree that it's an independent republic, and others disagree that it's a Serbian province", means you're taking a side here, that of the people who disagree. So there's one article for the people who disagree with Kosovo's independence, and one article for the people who disagree with that being a Serbian province. PersonPaOpinion (talk) 14:19, 8 January 2012 (UTC) (User have 5 edits in article space. Sock... --WhiteWriter speaks 15:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC))
If somebody disagrees with one position, that doesn't necessarily mean that it agrees with the position which is the opposite of the one with which he/she disagrees. This kind of reasoning is what I believe could be portrayed as black and white thinking. --biblbroks (talk) 15:13, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Exactly. I'm certainly not taking sides, and I'm not really sure what I'm supposed to be disagreeing with. I was just pointing out the fact that if Wikipedia equates RoK or KiM with the geographical area of Kosovo, then that would be a POV position. The only neutral way to handle things is to treat both opinons as equal, and that can't easily be done in the main Kosovo artice - it's best to keep the different opinions separate. Saying that this approach is "a violation of NPOV" is bizarre and inexplicable. Bazonka (talk) 17:00, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose per this arguments, per consensus reached below this archive link, per fact that this split was created by sock puppet IP also, and per fact that Kosovo ≠ Republic of Kosovo --WhiteWriter speaks 15:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Duplicate pages and overlaping http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Duplicate_articles#Rationale:
Kosovo
1)Kosovo is landlocked and borders the Republic of Macedonia to the south, Albania to the west and Montenegro to the northwest. The remaining frontier belt is with the Central Serbian region which is the source of international dispute
Republic of Kosovo
2)The largest city and the capital of Kosovo is Pristina (alternatively spelled Prishtina or Priština), while other cities include Peć (Albanian: Peja), Prizren, Đakovica (Gjakova), and Kosovska Mitrovica (Mitrovica).
3)After the Kosovo War and the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, the territory came under the interim administration of the United Nations Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK), most of whose roles were assumed by the European Union Rule of Law Mission in Kosovo (EULEX) in December 2008.[23] In February 2008 individual members of the Assembly of Kosovo (acting in personal capacity and not binding the Assembly itself) declared Kosovo's independence as the Republic of Kosovo. Its independence is recognised by 86 UN member states and the Republic of China (Taiwan). On 8 October 2008, upon request of Serbia, the UN General Assembly adopted a resolution asking the International Court of Justice for an advisory opinion on the issue of Kosovo's declaration of independence.[24] On 22 July 2010, the ICJ ruled that Kosovo's declaration of independence did not violate international law, which its president said contains no "prohibitions on declarations of independence".
4)Names of Kosovo.
5)History of Kosovo starting from Disintegration of Yugoslavia to Declaration of independence. ALL 6 sections.
Republic of Kosovo
1)Kosovo is landlocked and borders the Republic of Macedonia to the south, Albania to the west and Montenegro to the northwest; all of which recognise Kosovo. The remainder of Kosovo's frontier to the north and east is the subject of controversy and is with[clarification needed] the Central Serbian region
2)The largest city and the capital of Kosovo is Pristina (alternatively spelled Prishtina or Priština), while other cities include Peć (Albanian: Peja), Prizren, Đakovica (Gjakova), and Kosovska Mitrovica (Mitrovica).
3)After the Kosovo War and the 1999 NATO bombing of Yugoslavia, the territory came under the interim administration of the United Nations Mission in Kosovo (UNMIK), most of whose roles were assumed by the European Union Rule of Law Mission in Kosovo (EULEX) in December 2008.[23] In February 2008 individual members of the Assembly of Kosovo (acting in personal capacity and not binding the Assembly itself) declared Kosovo's independence as the Republic of Kosovo. Its independence is recognised by 86 UN member states and the Republic of China (Taiwan). On 8 October 2008, upon request of Serbia, the UN General Assembly adopted a resolution asking the International Court of Justice for an advisory opinion on the issue of Kosovo's declaration of independence.[24] On 22 July 2010, the ICJ ruled that Kosovo's declaration of independence did not violate international law, which its president said contains no "prohibitions on declarations of independence".
4) Names of Kosovo
5)History of Kosovo starting from Disintegration of Yugoslavia to Declaration of independence. ALL 6 sections.
Repetitive information so MERGE.PersonPaOpinion (talk) 17:16, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
There is bound to be a certain degree of overlap in articles about similar topics - this is not necessarily a reason to merge, and of course there is scope for improvement. However, the main issue here is the principle, not the specifics. Bazonka (talk) 18:14, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
And those sentences are about it. Names are removed, as those should not be in RoK article. While EVERYTHING else is different, scope is different, article is not small, and not of minor subject, and therefor, WP:MERGE cannot be in use here. But i am sorry, but it is devastatingly obvious that we are dealing with sockpuppets here, and new users dont know how to cite the guideline and start merge idea on talk page. And i will ask for admin help in here. --WhiteWriter speaks 23:12, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support We should report Kosovo as it is, giving the situation as it lies on the ground. Yes, we can have an article about both governments (obviously with both establishing how effective their actual control is), but to create an article on a geographical area (which is defined by its political boundaries) is not NPOV but Political Correctness. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 17:02, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
So, you support merging the two articles but suggest having articles about both governments. I don't understand how should this be achieved. NPOV in your opinion would be to have article Republic of Kosovo linking to Kosovo - but wouldn't then issues with flags, government, whole infobox problems reemerge? --biblbroks (talk) 17:48, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
It's quite simple to have a separate article on the Serbian administration. We have an Abkhazian version, Government of the Autonomous Republic of Abkhazia. When Kosovo is discussed in English, it is for better or worse discussed as a (separatist) state. To create an article on an abstract geographical area doesn't fix NPOV. An article with decent text would. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 18:16, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
The meaning and surely the usage of the term Kosovo was discussed earlier - during the discussion right after the split. And that, I would say, at large - with all that analysis and comparison of the WP:COMMONNAME and WP:PRIMARYTOPIC guidelines i.e. policies. As well as the WP:GOOGLE how-to. I mean the subject of this article is geographical area, but an area that isn't so abstract after all. Especially if you regard only the history that comes with the term Kosovo. And with the Kosovo as such. For example, wasn't the term Kosovo used to describe this area before the 2008 declaration of independence also? Its meaning didn't abruptly change just because some people decided to declare some independence. Or whatever somebody did. Not just the meaning but also the usage of the term - even if it were just because the media currently uses this term to denote the state. If it were, but it isn't. Say, the term Kosovo in the syntagma North Kosovo doesn't simply equate with the term Kosovo for the state/republic. It corresponds moreover with the region/(abstract) geographical area/call it what you want. And that's just one example: I haven't even considered all the uses in all the media and/or publications. Not to mention if I were to focus some analysis on the usage of the term in the publications before the year 2008 only. Why, we should strive more for eventualism than for immediatism... if we should strive for anything, for that matter. Also, why do you think that the current text of this article is not neutral - I mean since you say that there is some POV which should be fixed. If you do say that. --biblbroks (talk) 19:46, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Things change as time passes, and as an electronic encyclopaedia we can keep up. There was a massive shift when the government decided to declare independence, and it led to the present situation. The history, geography, etc. of Kosovo we need to cover with all usages in mind is done through the main articles of those topics. I've never said the current text isn't neutral. What I feel is that the creation of this article was a solution to a nonexistent problem. 02:46, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
But what has changed? There were clashes at the border/administrative line in North Kosovo with several people wounded and dead and you suggest that situation changed? To what degree - that Kosovo has now somehow magically become the Republic of Kosovo? I mean all the "fuss" about the separation of these two articles was in part done to solve the problem of simultaneous existence of several infoboxes in the article. The infoboxes for which one editor, who is now voicing support for remerging and who states he/she has always been against the split, stated they must burn in hell anyway. I assure you that this was no abstract problem. --biblbroks (talk) 12:28, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
A lot changed, most especially in the perception of Kosovo. Southern Sudan magically became South Sudan last year, and we reflected that. As for infoboxes, I think that an infobox for Serbia, which controls a very small amount of Kosovo, would not be appropriate. I'd assume however it'd be extremely clear from the beginning Kosovo was disputed. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:53, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Situation with South Sudan is different: for one thing it is a member of United Nations, magically or not, and, to the best of my knowledge, there was and there is no dispute about its sovereignity. Whereas there is about Kosovo/Republic of Kosovo/Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija. Also the smallness or greatness of the territory controlled by the Serbs of North Kosovo should not be used as a parameter since we aren't here to determine this smallness (greatness) and act upon it. Since you said it yourself - Kosovo was disputed - I must ask: why do you think it isn't anymore? --biblbroks (talk) 13:16, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't think it isn't disputed, I just disagree that a dispute means we need to create a new page to avoid politics. Kosovo is Kosovo. While it can be argued what it is, it definitely isn't two different things, which necessitate different pages. In reality, it functions as an independent state with a small area it doesn't control, rather similar to Serbia. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:33, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Similar could be said for Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija: in reality it functions as part of Serbia with some area it doesn't control. Yet I wouldn't simply agree with either position. While ago there was an edit dispute (let me call it thus) about the "de facto control of Republic of Kosovo over the most of its territory" and "control of North Kosovo by the Republic of Serbia" in the first paragraph of this article. One editor agreed that it is poorly worded, since international institutions have more control over the territory than it is described in the article or acknowledged for that matter. Perhaps this stuff in the article still needs some work. Anyway I'd say that the matter isn't so simple as it is usually perceived. Also you posit that Kosovo isn't two different things, yet you say Kosovo is Kosovo - what do you mean by the term Kosovo itself when you say it like that? Republic of Kosovo? Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija? Or disputed region? Whatever you mean by the term, there might be different opinions, don't you agree? The usual point of meeting is that Kosovo is a disputed region and this article deals with this subject. I think that quite many editors in previous discussions agreed that this is most neutral. --biblbroks (talk) 14:12, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
As far as I know the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija hasn't had effective control since the beginning of the UN mission. That being said, I don't know the full details of how North Kosovo functions, although from what I know it seems to organise itself. When I talk about Kosovo I'm definitely not talking about the "Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija", and I doubt anyone really does, if only because by its own definition it covers more than what it considers Kosovo. Am I talking about the Republic or the disputed region? I'd say I'm talking about both, since they're the same thing. The only reason it is disputed is because of the republic. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:16, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
It is true that Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija had none or almost none control over its claimed territory since 1999, but if you take having effective control as a parameter then it would at be least fair to consider whether Republic of Kosovo always had enough effective control over its claimed territory so as to talk about Republic of Kosovo and disputed region at the same time always when you use the term Kosovo. It sure can't be that Republic of Kosovo and the disputed region are that simply the same thing since Republic of Kosovo is a state, i.e. a republic (and that would be a state by its definition, if I am correct), while disputed region is well... disputed region. Right? Same as the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija is autonomous province. Only when you dive into the subject i.e. read the rest of the article (I am talking about a non-knowledgeable person who encounters this article and/or wants to learn more) you find that there is a dispute over the sovereignty of Republic of Kosovo, or Republic of Serbia for that matter. And all that goes with this. Also, you are wrong: "Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija" covers the same as what you consider region of Kosovo, but it also covers the same as what itself often considers Kosovo: since in Serbian the term Kosovo is often used as a short for Kosovo and Metohija, or region of Kosovo in English. --biblbroks (talk) 10:49, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
I think there's toying with semantics there. We don't have two different topics. If one just wants to focus on say, constitutional apparatus, then yes, you can write articles on clearly different topics; however, discussing it as a whole, as both pages do, doesn't allow for such specificity. I assume that any decent article on Kosovo, even in the current form, would note somehow that there was a dispute from the very beginning (like Northern Cyprus, which opens straight away with "self-declared state").
I know that "Kosovo and Metohija" refers to the same area as what I call Kosovo (being an English speaker), but within that definition Kosovo is only a smaller part. I highly doubt that Kosovo is often used as a shortform when discussing that state apparatus today, after over a decade of redundancy. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 01:33, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
There is no toying - look at the articles and their history. You will find that they deal with different topics. There sure is still much room for improvement: for example in this article there should be some information excluded from the infobox as I was explaining in previous discussions regarding a proposal to make this a disambiguation page. And surely there is much more to improve in the Republic of Kosovo article, but to say that there is toying with semantics while on the other hand basing an argument on the claim that in Serbia's definition of "Kosovo", "Kosovo" is a smaller part of "Kosovo and Metohija" that is very unconvincing. I assure you "Kosovo" is a shortform for "Kosovo and Metohija" in Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian and Montenegrin language, or may I say Serbo-Croatian. A very well established shortform. And that is regardless of some state apparatus's efforts. I mean we are talking about language here - no state apparatus can control it that easily as some naive person might expect.
These two articles, Kosovo and Republic of Kosovo, exist mostly to satisfy the distinction between the state and the region and by that to accomplish neutrality over treatment of Kosovo - as a state or as a disputed region. To say that there are no different topics regarding treatment of Kosovo and treatment Republic of Kosovo is also biased. It comes from the perspective that Kosovo is a state and that perspective is by itself not sufficiently founded in reality and/or sources as well as it isn't neutral. You said that we don't have two different topics, but I think you should allow yourself to think that we should have if we don't. You say we can write a decent article but rest assured that problems will arise very soon as how to treat Kosovo - as a state or as a disputed region - since it is very hard if not impossible to present both in one article. Especially when it comes to inclusion of infoboxes. Case of the Northern Cyprus article is much easier since there are no disputes over its sovereignty as far as I know. In the case of Kosovo situation is different: with all the "effective control" either of Republic of Kosovo or of Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija. Or should I say Northern Kosovo. And here it is one part of the problem, right away since I mentioned the existing terms: "North Kosovo" and "Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija". Now same goes for the Kosovo itself - whether it is a self-governed state or not, and how to present this. --biblbroks (talk) 09:10, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
At the moment, they are both incomplete articles. One would expect demographics, geography, etc. to be present on each, and they would be identical if both were perfect. As for the shortform in Serbocroat, I have no reason to doubt that, but whether it carries on to English, and whether that carrying on applies in the present day, is different. The simple solution to this is to treat Kosovo as what it is; a disputed state, something quite solidly founded in reality and sources. Northern Cyprus is entirely claimed by Cyprus, so there's a massive dispute over its sovereignty. I thought we'd established the autonomous province had no effective control? Names in English can be confusing, but that's why we have article text to explain them. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 15:11, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Merge because its a duplicate content, leave as part of the information the fact that is a partially recognized and there are two governments acting on it: the goveremt of the Republic of Kosovo in the whole region beside the Northern tip not recognized by by countries that support Serbia, the Serbian government on the Northern tip, not recognized by countries that support Kosovo: 2 governments. What's here about not to understand?PersonPaOpinion (talk) 18:03, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
What's not to understand is why some people think that the current approach is POV. Sure, it might not be perfect, but there's no pro-Serb or pro-Albanian bias. Bazonka (talk) 18:15, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
France and Spain are utterly different; they're not in any way disputed. Please, think about what you're suggesting - equating Kosovo the place with the very-much disputed RoK is like disturbing a nest of POV hornets. Things have been so much more stable, with less arguments since the articles were split. Let's not go back there. Bazonka (talk) 22:34, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
Republic of France is recognised by every entity in the world, undisputed ruler of territory of France, which is claimed by none other, while Republic of Kosovo rule only part of territory of Kosovo, it is widely unrecognized by majority of the world, and its entire territory is claimed by other, undisputed and politically older entity. Those two cannot be compared in any way, as they are 1000000 miles apart, both physically, politically and historically. Repetition of questionable and seriously faulty POVs, and empty ip s's and sockpuppets supports, not backed in arguments will not disturb cement consensus we gained on this page. --WhiteWriter speaks 22:53, 8 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support largely per PersonPaOpinion. The articles represent two Ps oV for one place (unlike, for example, Cyprus and North Cyprus). Jd2718 (talk) 03:44, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support re-merge. I've always been opposed to the split, and I'm not convinced there ever was a valid consensus for it, outside the persistent pushing by editors with obvious national agendas. Far too much content overlap between the two articles; conceptual split goes counter to common English usage, and nothing in the inherent POV problems is grave enough to make treatment in a single page impossible. NPOV is better served in fewer articles, not in more articles. Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:04, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
But you will not gain NPOV with this merge, you will only gain ultra-nationalistic article about Republic of Kosovo. As this POV proposition dont mention merger of Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija article, but only Republic of Kosovo. --WhiteWriter speaks 11:56, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose Why we need two or more info boxes and mention all parallel institutions in one article. Situation is now clear. If content overlap is problem, then delete sections on history, geography from articles on Republic of Kosovo and AP KiM. -- Bojan  Talk  12:03, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose It's better to have three neutral articles, one about the region and the two about political entities, than to have one article that will be the scene of constant edit wars. If we put all information into one article, each party will try to remove content which relates to the political entity of the other side. Finally, we will get a POV article, that will be only about one political entity. That's why I can't support this merge proposal.--В и к и T 12:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose This is the case similar to Cyprus (disambiguation). So there are 2 separate entities, with separate institutions. --Alexmilt (talk) 13:13, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support I agree with Enric Naval. Also, it seems somewhat fishy that the Serbian editors gather at the same time to meatpuppet a decision (and not just this one, but others too).--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 17:49, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
Many of users of serbian wiki have this article in whatch list. For example I sow now that, so I came here --Јованвб (talk) 22:42, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose Kosovo is disputed teritory. So, that can't be same as Republic of Kosovo. This is obvious that there we have POV pushing and troling proposition. --Јованвб (talk) 22:45, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support, and block anyone that disagrees :) Wouldn't that make this a nicer place to edit. Obviously you cannot reasonably justify separating the articles about a region and its government, even if the governance is disputed. Prodego talk 22:47, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
But did you really read the justification? And this place already is nice place to edit, since article was split. 0% of vandalism and POV pushing. --WhiteWriter speaks 23:23, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
This is not the only example for existence of separate articles about region and political entity. See, Taiwan and Republic of China.--В и к и T 23:38, 9 January 2012 (UTC)
The Taiwan and ROC articles cover different areas. Taiwan focuses only on the single island, the ROC article covers quite a few other islands as well, similar to Pulau Ujong and Singapore. The two Kosovo articles cover the same area. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 00:21, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Why would Repuvlic of Kosovo would have advantage over AP KiM? What if we want to merge AP KIM and Kosovo? Having three non- ambiguous articles is the best, NPOV solution. -- Bojan  Talk  01:50, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
And what about Western Sahara? It is disputed territory between Sahrawi Arab Democratic Republic and Southern Provinces. Same as here. Note that self proclaimed RoK doesn't control North Kosovo. RoK claims sovereignty over the entire territory of Kosovo, but don't have control over the some territories..--В и к и T 00:46, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
You presume that those are acceptable. Other stuff is wrong too. Prodego talk 05:52, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Oh linking to Other stuff exists, favorite argument of those who don't have arguments. I used it many times :)В и к и T 09:03, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose- the rational solution, as with the 'Cypress' articles. Nevard (talk) 05:47, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oh, that's interesting. Good to know that the Northern Cyprus article doesn't exist. I was hallucinating that it did for a bit. Nevard (talk) 10:44, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
  • And you support destroying the content left in this article related to the historical Kosovo with some stuff about this 'Republic of Kosovo', why? Nevard (talk) 11:58, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
  • What on heavens are you talking about?? Why would this merge destroy any information?? I suggest you look at Spain, France or Germany, they are perfectly able to contain the history of the historic region. --Enric Naval (talk) 12:08, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support merge. Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija or any other relevant info from other related articles, can be included here although they may stand as separate. I see some here cite Cyprus case. I don't think they are similar, unless you want to delete Kosovo article and have Serbia/Serbia(Kosovo) dab page which is extremely pov. Someone rightly feared that this merge might bring edit wars, however I think we have the tools of fighting it. We are speaking about scientific principles of encyclopedia articles here. We can not deform them because some hot headed persons might react. Aigest (talk) 09:36, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Support, wikipedia only reflects the common use of terms. There's no possible source that uses another term for Kosovo and another one for the Republic of Kosovo, just as no source uses the term France or Germany without referring to the state entity.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 18:00, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Wikipedia also tries to maintain neutrality. Equating the territory of Kosovo with the disputed Republic of Kosovo is taking sides, especially if you bear in mind that the territory of RoK is smaller than that of Kosovo the place. In my opinion, WP:NPOV is more important than WP:COMMONNAME. Bazonka (talk) 18:58, 10 January 2012 (UTC)
Also, I think it's very wrong to say that there is no single source that uses a different term for region of Kosovo and a different term for Republic of Kosovo since this oversimplifies the matter. The term for Republic of Kosovo would be exactly the term "Republic of Kosovo". And that differs from the term Kosovo. This may seem banal but true nevertheless. And right to the point I think. --biblbroks (talk) 11:21, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
And Germany differs from Federal Republic of Germany, yet they are the same article. --Enric Naval (talk) 13:05, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
But does the meaning of Germany and the meaning of Federal Republic of Germany differ that much as does the meaning of Kosovo and the meaning of Republic of Kosovo? The term Germany is almost always if not always used to denote one sovereign state, while the term Kosovo is surely very often regarded as a term to denote one disputed region and sometimes a term to denote one state... where the term "sometimes" is hard to decipher especially should the term "sovereign" be used in front of the term "state". At least for that this distinction should be taken into account very carefully, if not for maintaining neutrality, which of course should also be maintained, despite the fact that some think that this is of secondary importance in this case. --biblbroks (talk) 14:52, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose-It's not the same thing. Kosovo is autonomic region of Serbia, and Republic of Kosovo is partially recognized country. Wile E. Coyote (talk) 08:47, 11 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I am actually not strongly opposed to it, apart from some minor concerns - how will the history of the region of Kosovo be included in the new Republic ? Given that the former has existed since 40 kYA, and the latter only in recent years Slovenski Volk (talk) 09:08, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
It would just be written in the history section, similar to articles on any place in wikipedia. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:16, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Those are to conflicting entities, that is the reason for concern. Those two should not be represented together, as they are not. --WhiteWriter speaks 14:09, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Isn't this "similar to articles on any place in wikipedia" a referral to Kosovo the region and not the state/republic/entity? Or is this me toying with semantics? --biblbroks (talk) 14:57, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Not many places have multiple general articles about them. There's only one history of Kosovo. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 15:11, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
In one place Kosovo is called an abstract geographical area, here it's called a place. Above it is again said it to be a disputed state - which would allegedly be solidly founded in reality and sources. I think this is quite confusing: what is Kosovo in the end? I mean in English language? --biblbroks (talk) 15:28, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
If you're looking for a short and simple definition or title, your search is pointless. If we were to go by the point of your statement, through reductio ad absurdum, we'd have an article on Kosovo the abstract geographical area, an article on Kosovo the place, an article on Kosovo the disputed state, etc. It's untenable and ridiculous. Obviously no-one is advocating this huge number of articles, but the point is the current set-up tries to cover the same thing in two different ways, trying to separate the state from the area it governs. It'd be like creating a Serbia article and a Republic of Serbia article (with Serbia covering the region), because the Serbian government doesn't control a part of this Serbia. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 15:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
And what would be the difference between the articles on "Kosovo the place" and "Kosovo the abstract geographical area"? Also worth noting: if a sound proposal to create two different articles one called Serbia and one called Republic of Serbia would have been made, I would surely consider it, but I most seriously doubt that you could make one such proposal. But hey, you can try. If you want, I can give you a hint. --biblbroks (talk) 22:58, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
I have no clue what the difference would be, which was the whole point. The current setup faces exactly the same issues as that. As for Serbia, I would oppose that split, just as I support undoing this split. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 16:58, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Anyway, user Chipmunkdavis was the one who referred to Kosovo when he/she used the phrase "abstract geographical area", not me. And therefore I don't see a point of reducing my point to reductio ad absurdum. Also I am aware that someone would oppose the hypothetical split which I described and that perhaps even ferociously - especially since that someone said he/she would oppose something he/she haven't even been informed of. I won't comment on his/her reasons for such a stance, but maybe he/she could. --biblbroks (talk) 17:12, 14 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose How this can be same, Republic of Kosovo is not even UN member, not recognized by 2/3 of UN members, and Kosovo is still by every international law autonomous province in Serbia, so this would be just another political decision by some users, and far from neutral point.--Obelixus (talk) 16:55, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment for closing admin User:WhiteWriter has canvassed in the Serbian wikipedia[6]. Google translation:
==En wiki / Kosovo==

IP address of the proposed merger as Article Article Kosovo Republic of Kosovo, no article on the autonomous province of Kosovo and Metohija. Participants and lutci already blocked some users.

[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Kosovo#Merge_with_Republic_of_Kosovo.3F Talk: Kosovo # Merge with Republic of Kosovo]

Give your suggestion, comment, or attitude. - A word BeliPisac 12:53,

9 January 2012. (CET)
Wile_E._Coyote had not edited the English wikipedia since August, so he probably saw that notice. All other users seem to be regular editors. --Enric Naval (talk) 18:30, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
This translation is almost meaningless, btw... This is NOT CANVASSING, per WP:CANVAS. This post was limited, Neutral, Nonpartisan and open, all propositions used in Appropriate notification guideline. And i asked for more opinions, i dont see whats wrong in it. It is the same here and there, wiki is not voting, if arguments are not useful, then we cannot use it. Also, you are cross wiki hounding me? That is not permitted, as opposed to the first thing mentioned. --WhiteWriter speaks 18:43, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Why would someone seeking non-partisan views leave such a message on a board of Serbian wikipedia, when this is an issue of the English wikipedia? Checking(I was possibly the first to find out about your posts) and making known activities that possibly involve gaming the system isn't wikihounding in any way. Gaius earlier pointed out that most of the oppose come from certain users, so your messages on sr.wiki verify the demographic tendencies of the discussion.--— ZjarriRrethues — talk 19:06, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't think that we should be overly concerned that most of the opposers are pro-Serb. The proposal here is to move from a neutral format to a pro-Albanian format, so it is inevitable that the Serbs are going to be the most vocal in opposition to it. As long as they are not counter-proposing a pro-Serb format, then they have an entirely valid position. (Note that I am opposed, but am neither pro-Serb nor pro-Albanian.) Bazonka (talk) 19:22, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Ethnic profiling of users wont help us here, Zjarri, and that is forbidden per WP:NPA. Arguments will. Exactly as Bazonka told you, this proposition is so POV, and i didnt say anything wrong regarding that. I just told "Give your proposition, comment or attitude". That can hardly be non neutral sentence... --WhiteWriter speaks 19:35, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't mean to profile, but most of the Support votes come from non-Albanians and most of the Oppose votes come from Serbs. There is nothing wrong with that, but meatpuppetry and canvassing is an inappropriate way to block the merge. As per the categories set up on WP:Canvassing, the message sent out is biased, the audience is probably partisan (despite obvious objections), and the transparency is secret (since it was posted in another language wiki) and since it satisfies at least 2/4 categories (perhaps 3/4), it is inappropriate and Enric Naval's point is worth noting.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 21:06, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
Sorry to bump in but it would be an edit conflict and I wanted to comment a previous post. What exactly is the bias of the message? "Audience is probably partisan" - isn't this profiling an entire contributing population of sr.wikipedia.org? "Transparency is secret since it was posted in another language wiki" - and the filing party for this case of alleged canvassing used a Google translator? Does the previous comment support the view that this was canvassing or...? I really don't understand this comment especially when one user commented previously that "Gaius earlier pointed out that most of the oppose come from certain users". And yet in the previous comment it is claimed that it wasn't meant to profile. And that right before the claim where do the Support votes mostly come from and from what ethnicity do Oppose votes mostly come from. I find this comment utterly peculiar if not contradictory. --biblbroks (talk) 22:35, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
I retract my comment, since after reconsidering the message I realized that it is biased: "Učestvuju i lutci nekih već blokiranih korisnika." is an opinion. --biblbroks (talk) 09:54, 13 January 2012 (UTC)
Well, it is somewhat apparent from the state of affirs that it might be premature to homogenize everything into an article titled Republic of Kosovo when it is not actually a recognized country yet. And there is merit in what certain editors who state that the two are not the same. This article is about a region in Southeastern Europe which has existed for hundreds- thousands years, the other is a newly created, and according to some view points, illegally created state. As messy as it might be, two separate articles might be warranted until international/ UN status moves to a more a recognizable/ unanimous position. Slovenski Volk (talk) 22:29, 12 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Canvassing: Let's be honest; there has been canvassing to attract editors from the Serb side. (Or maybe just a few emails reminding people to !vote, eh? I'm under no allusion; most canvassing is done in less public ways). It's happened with previous polls on this subject on this talkpage; when those polls did not deliver the desired result, somebody just went ahead and split the article anyway. Establishing, and acting on, a fair consensus takes second place to serb nationalism. It's a shame that such controversial matters can't be decided fairly. bobrayner (talk) 22:07, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Serb nationalism? What a pompous rhetoric. Resorting to appeal to morality by claiming something is shameful while disregarding previous replies about this? I'd say a weak attempt to avoid the issue. Casting suspicion on previous polls by profiling editors who participated? I think we established profiling is inappropriate and that polls are not a good way to build consensus, yet these arguments keep on repeating. --biblbroks (talk) 08:30, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The status of Kosovo is disputed. And if you didn't know, North Kosovo is a current event (referendum in February). --Zoupan (talk) 21:07, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose - for all the reasons so well stated by User:Bazonka. We HAD an article that combined the region and the Republic, at the same time we had a separate article for the Autonomous Province (which article the proposer seems to forget). This inequality of presentation and the fact that even the simplest things had to be qualified so many different ways meant that the article was always a wishy-washy, self-contradictory mess. Far from being POV, this current setup seems the most NPOV to me. --Khajidha (talk) 15:50, 25 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. See status of Kosovo and North Kosovo. Int21h (talk) 01:13, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Ah Kosovo... All Serbian users will vote against this and all Albanian users will invariably vote for it, but objectively, If China isn't merged with People's Republic of China, the disputed RoK shouldn't be merged with Kosovo. This is a far more complex issue than is apparently understood in the move proposal. -- Director (talk) 02:50, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
China has been merged with the PRC, but I still think that we should keep Kosovo and ROK separate.--Khajidha (talk) 13:42, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
Ha, so it has. Either way the RoK is hardly the People's Republic of China, I agree. -- Director (talk) 14:19, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose. I don't agree with rationale provided for this merging (Having two articles about Kosovo one as a geographical region, one as a political region is a violation of WP:NPOV.) Having two separate articles about region of Kosovo and Republic of Kosovo doesn't have to do anything with NPOV. Both topics are notable (Wikipedia:Notability) and described in very large articles (Wikipedia:Article size). We would have problem with NPOV only after merging of those two articles, regardless of the recognition issue. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 09:55, 1 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment: For what it's worth, I came to here looking for info on Kosovo as a political, rather than a merely geographic entity. Wouldn't a disambiguation page be useful under the Kosovo name? LukeSurl t
  • Oppose - The so called Republic of Kosovo is not even recognised by the United Nations. The move would be inappropriate and could not command consensus support. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 19:50, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Comment: Does the Republic of Kosovo have actual control over North Kosovo? 218.250.159.25 (talk) 22:19, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
No, I don't believe it does. Bazonka (talk) 07:54, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Is North Kosovo part of Kosovo? 218.250.159.25 (talk) 10:07, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Now isn't this a great question? I believe that some might say that the answer depends on the context - what exactly is meant by the term Kosovo in "of Kosovo". --biblbroks (talk) 13:53, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
The same problem pops up with every single place that a country claims but doesn't control.. From Northern Ireland to Northern Cyprus.. Are they part of Ireland and Cyprus respectively? What if Kosovo is defined as a geographical region rather than a reference to a country? Is North Kosovo part of Kosovo? 218.250.159.25 (talk) 17:26, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
Well again, now it depends on how you define Kosovo as a geographical region. I'd say North Kosovo is part of Kosovo.. when using the term Kosovo as in the syntagma Kosovo War. But some might object to the very notion of Kosovo being considered as a geographical region. So there you have it. --biblbroks (talk) 21:40, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Bazonka on top. This issue seems to were part of BIG discussions you can see in the archives of this and related pages. The result of these discussions is: Kosovo article is about the geographic region. Republic of Kosovo is about the independent state. Another article is for the Serbian region. In any case these three topics should be at different articles and that is the result of all discussions. Whether Kosovo is a disambiguation page, a redirect to Republic of Kosovo or article about the republic - in those cases the current content of this article should be moved to Kosovo (region) or something like that. But that's not what the previous discussions reached as conclusion. The examples with russia-supported separatist regions are one thing, but we have also Palestine (about the region) and State of Palestine. Japinderum (talk) 08:03, 10 February 2012 (UTC)
  • Oppose per Japinderum and Bazonka. 218.250.159.25 (talk) 12:49, 11 February 2012 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[edit] Biased picture

I find the use of the photo "Death to Serbs" very biased and inappropriate. I would therefore ask for the picture to be deleted or replaced. --NOAH (talk) 11:39, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm sorry you don't like the way that some Albanians in Kosovo feel, but Wikipedia is hardly endorsing this view - it is merely showing an image of something in Kosovo. As a neutral party, I feel that the photo simply highlights the fact that there are ethnic tensions in the region. This is clearly relevant to Kosovo. Bazonka (talk) 11:50, 21 January 2012 (UTC)
BAZONKA, YOUR EXPLANATION IS TOTALLY IDIOTIC, U R SUPPORTING BARBARISM. NORTH KOSOVO IS SERBIAN WITH 98% SERB&CHRISTIAN POPULATION, IT LL ALWAYS BE LIKE THAT!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.107.219.137 (talk) 21:43, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm sorry if I offended you, but I did not write that grafitti or place the image of it in the article. I fail to see how my comment supports barbarism - I certainly do not support the sentiment of the grafitti in the image. I said nothing about the population of North Kosovo. If you have genuine concerns, then please discuss them - but no more WP:SHOUTy rants please, you're not doing yourself any favours. Bazonka (talk) 22:30, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

I support the motion to replace the image. -- Director (talk) 02:52, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

What would you replace it with? Or perhaps it should be balanced by an additional image showing something anti-Albanian. Bazonka (talk) 08:20, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
I'm with Bazonka. We aren't making the graffiti, we aren't supporting its sentiments, we are simply showing that such things exist. This is no different from the picture of signs for boycotting Jewish businesses in Nazi Germany on the Holocaust page. --Khajidha (talk) 14:30, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
There is not doubt about it, a lot of Serbs have been killed by Kosovo Albanians....Whether the Albanians hate the Serbs or wish them death isn't really something I can answer. I suppose one cannot generalise: I am sure some Kosovo Albanians think Serbs are ok and don't wish them death. But the Kosovo Albanian human rights record is atrocious....86.45.54.230 (talk) 19:01, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Unilateral secession

Isn't that a redundancy? ALL secessions are unilateral. As "secession" means "withdrawal", only the seceding entity can withdraw itself. The larger entity may support or oppose said secession, but it cannot actively take part in it (just as a school cannot withdraw a student, only the student can withdraw; the school must expel). Thus there is no "multilateral secession" to contrast with the above mentioned "unilateral secession". Just to cover an example that I'm sure someone will advance, the "Velvet Divorce" that ended Czechoslovakia was not a multilateral secession; each of the two portions (Slovakia and Czech Republic) individually withdrew from the Czechoslovak state and accepted the withdrawal of the other from said state. Thus, both were unilateral. To think otherwise is to say (for example) that the Czech Republic withdrew Slovakia from the single Czechoslovak state. --Khajidha (talk) 20:44, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

It's common terminology to refer to a succession which takes place against the will of the larger state as unilateral, meaning that it was done without agreement. South Sudan for example was not described as a unilateral succession. CMD (talk) 21:14, 6 February 2012 (UTC)
Agree with Chipmunkdavis. 86.45.54.230 (talk) 19:53, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

[edit] History correction

About: "...then conquered by the Ottoman Empire, later the Autonomous Province of Kosovo and Metohija..." I think that between theese two periods, there was a period when Kosovo was an integral part of the Serbia. Kosovo become a internal provice of the Serbia as a result of the decentralisation proccess which were conducted to easier governance over Serbia. It happened after world war II. There is a wide period of time unexplained here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.180.26.25 (talk) 13:28, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

This wording as it stands now is due to rather unfortunate state of events. It was me who was trying to fix some other wording added. And this previous wording was, I believe, introduced in order to give some more historic data to represent a perspective which was possibly considered not represented enough. Actually, the period in which Kosovo was part of Serbia is mentioned in the lead - in the same sentence but a bit later, parenthesized: "...(Serbia then being one of the constituent republics of Yugoslavia, but also part of Serbia after First Balkan War and before constitution of Yugoslavia)...". As I noted in the edit summary when I amended this, perhaps such historic precision might not be most suitable to be given in the lede cause it might detriment readability, but since it is there it doesn't hurt. Much. Though if necessary, this information can be further explained. --biblbroks (talk) 16:15, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Article is biased

I suggest the article be tagged for not adhering to the NPOV requirement. The reasons in a nutshell:

  • From the political standpoint, it focuses on Kosovo as a Serbian province before it refers to the Republic of Kosovo, which controls 90 percent of the territory and is recognized as an independent country by 88 UN members.
  • As to history, the focus again is on Serbia (or the Serbian presence in Kosovo), not Kosovo. The Dardani had their own kingdom as of 4th century BC; Christianity spread in the early centuries of the common era (Paul preached in Illyricum, which included Dardania); and, many important contemporary figures were from Dardania. These are facts supported by ancient writers and should not be neglected. For most countries where Christianity has played a major public role, history begins with the arrival of the religion; Kosovo's history according to the article begins much later, with the arrival of the Serbs.

--Getoar TX (talk) 18:47, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

  • Your first point - 88 out of 193 UN members (45.6%:<54.4%), get the point!
  • Second, wtf your talking about, read article again:
Early history

"During antiquity, the area which now makes up Kosovo was inhabited by various tribal ethnes, who were liable to move, englarge, fuse and fissure with neighbouring groups. As such, it is difficult to locate any such group with precision. The Dardani, whose exact ethno-linguistic affilitation is difficult to determine, were a prominent group in the region during the late Hellenistic and early Roman eras."

There is of course space to improve this part of article, but only from neutral point, not some Albanian nationalistic propaganda that they were Dardanians and that Serbian part of Kosovo history is less important.--Obelixus (talk) 17:22, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

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