Talk:LGBT

Proper Acronym?

What is the appropriate acronym to be used? Is it GLBT or LGBT? This is an organization which promotes sexual equality among persons of varying sexual orientations or life-styles. The term “Gay Rights” is more pure to the notion of equal acceptance and tolerance of persons with differing sexual orientations than “Lesbianism.” The notion of “Lesbianism” encompasses a wide range of political beliefs ranging from equal acceptance of homosexuality in society (which most reasonable people support) to the promotion of lesbian over all other forms of sexual relationships. There is considerable conflict between many tenets of Lesbianism and other groups of the GLBT movement. For instance Lesbianism often adopts a radical feminist conception of gender. This view holds that gender is entirely socially constructed. The very existence of transsexuals conflicts with this holding. In 2000 the Vancouver Rape Relief Society, a pro-Lesbianism and feminist organization, successfully sought judicial review of a British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal decision finding that the society discriminated against a transsexual female (See Nixon v. Vancouver Rape Relief Society). On the other hand, gay men have not been known to be political active in areas of gender segregation, extreme misogyny or hostility toward transsexual individuals. Traditionally the acronym has been GLBT. The GLBT movement was focused on the acceptance of sexual diversity. Other political interests should not be subsumed by the GLBT movement, lest the hostilities toward those extrinsic political ideologies hinder the otherwise legitimate and widely supported movement toward sexual diversity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wturn086 (talk • contribs) 03:25, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia uses "LGBT" rather than "GLBT" because "LGBT" is the more common form, not for any ideological reason. With regard to the above, most people who identify as lesbians are not involved in any kind of "lesbianism movement". It's just the most common English term for homosexual women. --Alynna (talk) 01:12, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Are there any sources suggesting LGBT is more common? While I've heard both, GLBT is more common where I live (and in Google results). --50.131.152.251 (talk) 23:33, 28 October 2011 (UTC)

In Canada most universities have a "GLBT" centre. The acronym seems uncontroversial. Perhaps a fair solution would be HBT (Homesexual, Bisexual and Transexual)? This acronym seems more pure to the movement. The movement is nothing more than the acceptance of sexual diversity in society. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wturn086 (talk • contribs) 03:33, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Should your proposed acronym gain enough traction to be notable, it can be added to Wikipedia. --Alynna (talk) 01:31, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

If the proper historical reference is supposed to be included & used, historically, "GLBT" is the term referenced originally. LGBT is a somewhat recent change. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.204.188.145 (talk) 07:05, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

For reference, I'm including some URLs to pages which discuss the topic of GLBT vs. LGBT

• http://nlgjareact.wordpress.com/2010/05/27/lgbt-vs-glbt-metro-weekly-decides/
• http://www.answerbag.com/q_view/574774
• http://jenyockney.blogspot.com/2009/04/glbt-or-lgbt.html
• http://glbtcommunity.com/
• http://www.diversityabroad.com/sexual-orientation-abroad —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.204.188.145 (talk) 07:23, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Removed

"The broad spectrum of LGBT groups has been expanded further in many cases, recently a resident of Manchester, Joe Parrott, has started an LGBT online gaming network that has proven very popular since its creation in 2009. The group joins together players of Counter-Strike, World of Warcraft and primarily Dark Age of Camelot, and has monthly meetings at Gay venues across the north."

This would seem to belong more properly to LGBT organizations, if it is notable enough for inclusion. Eponymous (talk) 17:05, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

tautology

"The acronym LGBT has become mainstream as a self-designation and has been adopted by the majority of LGBT community centers and LGBT media".

So we are saying that "LGBT" is used in the "LGBT community" and by "LGBT media". Presumably, the "LGBT community", for lack of any other definition, amounts to "those people who self-identify as 'LGBT'". This is just meaningless.

Also, the term being "mainstream" within the "LGBT community" is not sufficient for using it in Wikipedia's voice without attribution, because Wikipedia isn't part of the "LGBT media" and is required to use the most common terminology in English as a whole.

Improper use of a 1990s neologism across Wikipedia leads to absurdities like "LGBT rights by country or territory". Please take a second to reflect on the introductory sentence, "Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender (LGBT) related laws vary greatly by country or territory".

This is nonsense. The article is not aware of any single law on bisexuality. There are laws on homosexuality, sometimes these laws distinguish between male and female homosexuality, and there are presumably some laws on "transgender", i.e. legal change of sex, a topic entirely separate from laws on homosexuality. Lumping this together isn't just absurd, it's also a violation of WP:SYNTH.

We need an article on Homosexuality laws. The proper encyclopedic term for male homosexuality is "male homosexuality", that for female homosexuality is "female homosexuality". Our articles should not be written in slang, even if it is the slang of the subculture under discussion.

I realize this will be difficult to fix, as I assume 90% of people interested in writing these articles are apparently members of this subculture, while another 9% are homophobic trolls. Nevertheless I hope that even involved editors can take a step back and appreciate this call for encyclopedicity. --dab (𒁳) 14:23, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Ridiculous idea. Homosexuality laws it's absurd title and, definitely, is not encyclopedic term. No serious reasons to changes. Ron 1987 15:06, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

"homosexuality laws" is an "absurd title" and "not encyclopedic"? As opposed to "LGBT laws"? Any sort of rationale to back up this random claim? If you bother to peruse google books, you will find that "homosexuality laws" gives you 588 hits, while "LGBT laws" gives you 15, the earliest dating to 1998.

I would say this is a "serious reason" for a change under WP:UE, and you would seem to need to present excellent evidence to argue for a preference of the more obscure term. --dab (𒁳) 15:05, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

The term "homosexuality laws" is perfectly appropriate. In fact throughout history, most laws aimed at curbing homesexual activity have almost always been exclusively applicable to gay men. The standard form prohibition on homosexual activity is a ban on sodomy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wturn086 (talk • contribs) 19:34, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

" The article is not aware of any single law on bisexuality. There are laws on homosexuality" - I think you'll find that if a bisexual person is having a same-sex relationship, they'll be caught by the laws just the same as homosexual people. (And if you're going to say there isn't a law against being bisexual but not having same-sex acts, the same applies to homosexuality too - so that's an argument against your suggested title. The article refers to gay and bisexual "related laws" which is entirely correct - the laws relate to both gay and bisexual people.)

No one is claiming that laws have treated gay men and gay women the same, but they are close enough to cover in the same article. There is also a reasonable amount of cross-over with transgender issues. And since that article is basically a table, it seems destructive to just rip out one column for a separate article.

It is unclear if you object to the initialism, or the covering in the same article. Would you object if it was "Lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender rights by country or territory"? Mdwh (talk) 23:49, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Your first point ("there isn't a law against being bisexual but [against] same-sex acts, the same applies to homosexuality") is equivocation. The laws only address behavior; homosexual-, bisexual-, heterosexual- and asexual-oriented people can all be directly affected by them. So if "gay and bisexual laws" makes sense because gay and bisexual people are both affected by them, then what is the justification for exluding non-homosexual and non-bisexual people who can also be affected by the laws? Nay, the laws on homosexuality regulate homosexual behavior, and that's all that can be said about them.

Laws concerning male and female homosexuality overlap in many areas, as same-sex marriage, military service, adoption, discrimination, etc. But in other areas they do not, as sodomy laws and legal ages of consent. So covering male and female homosexuality in a single article is tenable. But where do homosexuality and transgenderism overlap? Transgenderism overlaps with other things; homosexuality overlaps with other things. To what purpose does conflating homosexuality and transgenderism serve? In my view, it serves no usability or function. It's simply ignorant at best and slanderous at worst.

Another point is that it is naïve to think the gay or LGBT community represent all homosexuals. If they did, designations like "men who have sex with men" wouldn't be necessary. But I recognize "gay" as a neutral synonym for "homosexual" is also tenable. Nonetheless, I don't self-identify as "gay" personally for the reason I don't self-identify as "atheist": both terms have political and social overtones I don't want to associate myself with.

I've addressed this issue at Talk:LGBT_rights_by_country_or_territory#pov-pushing_by_article_title and at Talk:LGBT_themes_in_mythology#This_ought_to_be_split_into_two_articles. 75.132.142.26 (talk) 02:38, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Variant

There is now a new variant, "LGBTQI2-S", translating as lesbian/gay/bisexual/transgendered/queer/intersexed/2-spirited. gsearch gives only 27 uses, but a main use is at the Homelessness Resource Center, and is used at a site run by "A program of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services Substance Abuse & Mental Health Services Administration, Center for Mental Health Services" [1]. I think this should be mentioned. (but this is getting somewhat ridiculous)(Mercurywoodrose)76.245.45.179 (talk) 00:57, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it's absolutely ridiculous homosexuality is put in the same category as transgenderism and intersexuality. This is extremely bigoted and anti-homosexual. It's saying if you're homosexual, you're necessarily gender-atypical. What could be more bigoted than that? The Right says homosexual men are not moral men; the Left says homosexual men are not real men. What's the point of giving me my dignity as a person only to deny me my dignity as a man? Why can't people understand that "it's your choice of lifestyle" is an infinitely more tolerant statement than "you're a congenital mental hermaphrodite who can't help being a non-normal (i.e., non-heterosexual) man and so shouldn't be legally and socially thwarted from pursuing your compulsion"? 75.132.142.26 (talk) 01:56, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

"the Left says homosexual men are not real men." I stopped here. You mad? Most of left is feminist and most of branches of Feminism says that gender roles are a social construction i.e. there is not "real men" and "real women" and there is not something that is more "masculine" and something that is more "feminine" in all cultures across History and world, every human being is what they really are. You seem to have a heterosexist point of view towards our transgender brothers/sisters/what-they-are-and-want-to-be-called. Lguipontes (talk) 16:53, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

I know you're in 99% of probability an anonymous troll but anyway... >Why can't people understand that "it's your choice of lifestyle" is an infinitely more tolerant statement than "you're a congenital mental hermaphrodite who can't help being a non-normal (i.e., non-heterosexual) man and so shouldn't be legally and socially thwarted from pursuing your compulsion"?< Do you want my opinion as a bisexual who fell in love with another boy at his first time when he was 7 years old (IQ says I'm almost genius)? Fuck what people think (actually, this one have to be the maximum in the heart and in the mind of every sane and self-loving non-heterosexual in a blatantly and violently heterosexist culture). In Brazil, where I live, if everybody had knowledge about sexual orientations as science demonstrates it in your society (biologically motivated), millions of homophobes would shut up. From religious to far right. Millions of homophobes could never have existed, from bullies who make little boys kill themselves to white power skinheads. In the hearts of all confuse parents, truth, hope and deep love could persevere instead of really sad hate and denial feelings that leads some to honor killings and other to physical and psychological abuse. Yeah, Science can prove that we're here since Upper Paleolithic, 9000 years before Bible (and some parts of History too, Portuguese wrote about Indigenous Brazilian "profanely and alarmingly common sodomy"). But it has to become mainstream there, to get notice here and help 8-11% (we are that numerous, I suppose) of our 200 million inhabitants. No, more than that, because the entire Latin American reality is more or less the same. Stronger conservative christianity (and if you ask me, more hypocritical, the way that only some of you native Anglophones can see) is not very helpful, they deny everything by the "gay agenda" myth and other ridiculous stereotypes. There are Christian public figures who are used to compare non-heterosexual acceptance to ten steps toward bestiality and pedophilia acceptance. As you can see, "choice of lifestyle" leads to 387982738928920387290020092373209302378 more social and psychological damage than "congenital mental hermaphrodite who can't help being a non-normal (i.e., non-heterosexual) man and so shouldn't be legally and socially thwarted from pursuing your compulsion" as consensus. I dream everyday with the latter. Lguipontes (talk) 17:22, 10 August 2011 (UTC)