Talk:Ladin language

Section 1

You would be surprised how many people refer to Ladin in Italy as Ladino. The thing is, in Italian, Ladin is Ladino! And let's not forget that the Dolomites are in Italy (close to the Austrian border), therefore, we must make clear that we understand and accept that Italians refer to Ladin as Ladino (check the Italian link for Ladin and you can see for yourselves), but since this article is in English, we refer to it as Ladin.

Question: Does anyone know how is Ladin in German? We could mention it as well.

--Pinnecco 15:46, 8 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Answer: Ladinisch (click on the German interwiki link).  Andreas  ^(T) 19:53, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

Ladin in Deutsch

Ladin in German is Ladinisch.

The modern Ladins are tri-lingual. They grow up speaking Ladin at home, but when they enter school half of their courses are conducted in Italian and the other half in German.

The Ladin flag is solid bars top to bottom: blue, white and green. Blue is for the sky over Ladinia. White is for the snow. Green is for the alpine meadows.

Is it right that they even speak four languages, at least if you count the South Tyrole dialect of German as a language of its own?--Unoffensive text or character 16:07, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

They speak Ladin and Italian as native speakers, and German and the Southtyrolian dialect from pretty badly to proficiently, depending on the area and the individual. Regards, --JohnnyRoland (talk) 20:58, 10 December 2010 (UTC)

it presents connections...

This passage: "It presents connections with the Swiss Romansh and Friulian" sounds strange to me, but then I am not a native speaker of English. I will rephrase it, but please feel free to revert my change.--Unoffensive text or character 16:09, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

I am an English native speaker and you are correct, that is not an English idiom. --Paolorausch (talk) 19:11, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Translations and Comparisons?

I'm not competitent to do the following, otherwise I'd do it myself. Could anyone provide a side-by-side comparison of text in Ladin, Italian, and English as a sample? This is nicely done in the article on the Judeo-Spanish Ladino language article. Perhaps a song (as was done in the Ladino article), or a passage from the Bible...? I find it interesting and helpful to compare passages translated side-by-side like that. Xenophon777 12:49, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

the alphabet

For some time now there has been a page at Ladin alphabet that gives an incorrect listing of the letters of the alphabet. That it is incorrect can be seen by viewing any Ladin text such as those at http://incubator.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wp/lld/ . Another site led me to this PDF, which makes me believe that Ladin is a series of dialects with no standard spelling system. I would suggest that anything given as an alphabet should be sourced directly to a document such as this one and qualified if necessary by saying that the spelling system isn't unified. I cannot find any simple listing of the letters of the alphabet in that document or any other, however. Soap ^Talk/_{Contributions} 23:14, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Phonology

I added phonology tables and ask those who known the language and the theory of phonology to have a look at it. I am aware that there are differences in the various local dialects. Unfortunately, I don't know any ladin, I just copied from the source.

The "ë" vowel is used in some areas but is abandoned in Standard Ladin. I included it in the phonologic table, thus departing from the standard.  Andreas  ^(T) 20:02, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

/h/ phoneme

The /h/ phoneme is, according to the source, a glottal fricatlive like in English, but it is said that "al à endere valour fonetich te paroles con na basa germanica olache al vegn pronunzié plu o manco desche l -ch- todesch." Does this mean that /h/ is a guttural as in German "ach" or in Scottish "loch"? The examples given are: puhin, troht, zah, sciah, rehl.  Andreas  ^(T) 21:01, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, they are saying that the voiceless velar fricative (the German ach-Laut) is used in words with a German etymology and represented by <h>. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 19:16, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

/ë/

You will find audio files for the word vërt here. This phoneme is not included in the official standard but occurs in the Val Gardëina dialect, see the table 3.2 'Grafems vocalics di idioms che toma demez tl ladin standard'. As far as I understand, the trema is used in the Fodom, Gherdeina, and Val Badia dialects but not in standard Ladin.  Andreas  ^(T) 17:57, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Nones and Solandro

Nones and Solandro are considered by some to be dialects of the Ladin lanuguge, while others disagree. See it:Nones about the socalled "Ladin queston". Maybe Solandro can bee seen as a variety of Nones, to be explained in the Nones article. For linguists to write more about this.  Andreas  ^(T) 12:42, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Urtijëi (from Talk:South Tyrol)

I don't know how to insert IPA-Codes on my keyboard, so I tried with SAMPA: Urtijëi is pronounced urtiZ3i, where the "j" is pronounced as in the french word jour and the "ë" like the german besser - hope, this helps.--Sajoch (talk) 19:03, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for this. Unfurtunately, we cannot use this becaus it is WP:Original research, we need a source for the pronunciation (no offence).  Andreas  ^(T) 23:39, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

I am from Urtijëi and speak ladin - what better source could you expect? ;-)

If you want to hear someone pronounce this name, you may look at a video on Youtube, where the speaker says (at the beginning) "cor di jëuni d'Urtijëi mo n iede".--Sajoch (talk) 09:20, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I have to admit that there are scores of unsourced pronuciation entries in Wikipedia. I want to refer to the article on Ladin in the German WP and propose: [urtiˈʒəi].  Andreas  ^(T) 14:52, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Hummm. The ladin "j" is definately pronouced like in the french word "jour". The "ë" is more difficult to explain. The SAMPA-page tells me that "ə" is like in german "bitte", while "6" (cannot type the headlong "a") sounds like the end of the german "besser" - which I deem more to the point. I would even consider "3" (the mirrored epsilon) appropriate. Please also listen to

and hear for yourself.--Sajoch (talk) 15:30, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I have serious doubts regarding the vowel qualities in your IPA transcription. My original research version would be: [ɯʀtɪˈʒɛj] ;-) Problem solved? --Mai-Sachme (talk) 15:35, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm no expert, and sincerely I don't get the subtle difference between "u" and headlong-"m" and between "r" and "R" - but I agree with the second part of the transcription. I could also register "Sëlva" - but there's really no magic in this name besides the "ë", or - more challenging for an IPA-transcription - the name "Gherdëina". :-)--Sajoch (talk) 16:10, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

If you have fun doing this, I think no one will object to your recordings, which I deem even more useful than a transcription :-) I'm looking forward to listen to Sëlva and Santa Cristina Gherdëina. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 16:18, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I'm getting my fun doing this:  Urtijëi ,  Santa Cristina ,  Sëlva ,  Gherdëina .--Sajoch (talk) 16:51, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

The article on the Ladin language lacks a phonology section as it is present in most other articles. I don't thik this page is the place to discuss phonetics and I would suggest to pospone the decision on the presentaton of the pronunciation until the phonology of Ladin is adequately documented. Any takers?  Andreas  ^(T) 16:27, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree that we need a reliable source for proper IPA transcriptions. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 17:00, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

I see nothing wrong with discussing it here. But maybe Talk:Ladin language would also be a good place. Gryffindor (talk) 18:13, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

How about writing the Istitut Ladin Micurà de Rü? They are paid for by the province to study and preserve Ladin and have published dictionaries, maps, language courses, ecc. I have worked with the director of the Institute Moroder before and back then he spoke about setting up a Ladin wikipedia, if he gets more staff for working on that. I think they should start right now on helping us with the Ladin articles, especially the IPA codes for the toponyms. (which is already included in the dictionaries they have published [1]). If there is a consensus here that we should get them involved I will write an email and suggest they open a wiki-account under their name to edit all the relevant Ladin articles. Naturally we will have to help them togehter at the beginning with editing, style, referencing ecc. As said: I would like to know if this idea has some support here, before I write an email to them [2]. noclador (talk) 19:02, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a unique opportunity for the Ladins to get a, well, notable online text corpus. I think their first goal should be to start their own language version (maybe focussing on local topics). Unfortunately, the current beta-version has been quite inactive for a while now. If they really want to edit articles on the English wikipedia, I'll be willing to support them, answer questions (also via e-mail), review their edits and so on (although I guess they should give the Ladin wikipedia a higher priority).

Are you sure that their dictionaries include an IPA transcription? I may be wrong, but I think I had a look at the printed versions recently, and I didn't find anything. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 19:44, 18 May 2011 (UTC)