Talk:List of Germans

List of Musicians and Singers needs revision

This part of the list is of very poor quality. At the moment it is a random collection of names (pop and rock groups, singers, conductors, instrumentalists), some famous, some not known at all. Is Christian Wunderlich (actor and singer) so important that he should feature in the "top 100" of German musicians? What about Fritz Wunderlich instead? Suggestions:

• divide list into sections: pop and rock groups, singers, conductors, instrumentalists
• only list names of international importance
• only list names if there is an articel in Wikipedia

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.188.232.97 (talk • contribs)

I agree, there are names on the list that are at most a temporary local phenomenon with no national or international influence at all and it smells a bit like the put themselves on the list (an apparently popular form of vandalism/spam). Most germans probably don't know most of them for more than a lack of general knowledge.80.171.18.19 (talk) 14:47, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Moving the List of Germans to List of famous Germans?

I think List of Germans should be moved to List of famaous German. We don´t have to list anybody and if I take a look at the portugese, german and italian wikipedia article name we should really rename it. --ckorff 12:03, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Not necessarily, take a look at List of Swedes or List of Austrians - these are good models for a list of ... .Themanwithoutapast 20:47, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

So can random people in Germany add their name to the list? billybobfred 03:43, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

War crimes vs crimes against humanity

war criminal is insuficient for Adolf Hitler we are talking about crimes against humanity !

Linking

I suppose this needs to be linked to from one of the pages to do with Germany, but I don't know where (there are various pages listed at German) - does anybody know if there's a standard way of doing this? --Camembert

I've just added a link to List of famous Germans from Germany/Temp. -- Juan M. Gonzalez 02:34 Sep 8, 2002 (UTC)

Changing "Sportspersons" to "Athletes"?

Could we change "Sportspersons" to "Athletes"? -- Zoe

I prefer "sportsperson" (even though it is a bit ugly) because "athlete" has a specific use (and even in a more general sense, it suggests something which requires strength, speed or stamina, ie not golf...:) --Camembert

Not in my idiolect. Sportsperson isn't even a real word! -- Zoe

To me, at least, "athlete" implies... well, athletics. Running, jumping, all that. But "sportsperson" implies... well, a person who does any sport! "Athlete" doesn't cover footballers or rugby players or whatever. Sven945 09:06, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Listing Hitler as war criminal pointless?

it seems pointless to list hitler as a war criminal. Are we then going to list all the nazi leaders as war criminals? where will it end? the man was a dictator-that sums it up pretty clear

Anne Frank

I very much doubt whether Anne Frank is a famous german. In the Netherlands we see her as a dutch jewish person, but I am not aware of her formal nationality.

Well, her family was from Germany, where she was born. They moved to Holland when Anne was very young. Ethnically, she was German. --Gabbe 15:41 Dec 30, 2002 (UTC)

ethnically?? The Frank family fled from Germany due to discrimination.

ethnically?? I would just write that she´s born here so listing her would be okay. --ckorff 12:03, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I totally agree with the above statement about Anne Frank. It is a bit rich to list her under famous Germans. Also if you want Germany to be considered to be a 'hip' modern country perhaps it is best to trim-down the very long list of Nazi's and Royalty!!Norwikian 10:44, 5 Nov 2003 (UTC)

Why should accurate information be removed? Wouldn't it make more sense to add more non-Nazis and non-royalty, than to take out correct information? john 08:59, 6 Nov 2003 (UTC)

We're not here to advertise Germany, we're here to describe it. That's what Wikipedia is for. billybobfred 03:45, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Definition of German

It seems there are some issues about who qualifies as German. It seems clear that the article is about people of German nationality (as opposed to people of German language or people who lived in Germany); maybe we should explicitly say so.

Three sample cases that might cause confusion:

• Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart -- should clearly be in the list. Unlike often assumed, he was not Austrian. Even if he had been, Austria still belonged to Germany at the time of his life.
• Franz Schubert -- similar issue; he was Austrian, and Austria was a part of Germany when he was born, although not when he died.
• Immanuel Kant -- generally regarded as German (he lived in a city where German was spoken and wrote in German), but actually the area where he lived did not belong to the Holy Roman Empire and he never even set foot into Germany. His nationality was Prussian; while Prussia later became a part of Germany, it was not during Kant's time.

I would propose: Let's be clear that we are talking about legal nationality. For people born between the 16th century and 1806: they are German if they have the nationality of a state of the Holy Roman Empire. For people born in 1871 and later: they are German if they have the nationality of the German Empire or the Federal Republic of Germany or the German Democratic Republic.

Problematic cases:

• People who lived in the Holy Roman Empire before it became to be considered "German" (around the 16th century). We probably should distinguish between German, Italian, Bohemian, and other parts of the HRE and include only the German part.

• People who lived 1806-1871, when no "Germany" existed. Two possibilities: a) consider citizens of those countries that later joined the German Empire as "German"; b) consider citizens of territories that were members of the German Confederation as German. Austria would be the most important difference.

--Chl 18:56, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)

The only solution that would avoid any kind of NPOV would be to delete everyone before 1871. Martg76 14:20, 7 May 2005 (UTC)

The case of Adolf Hitler

Definition of German is much more difficult then you think. You forgot the the most terrible example: Hitler. The Austrians try to make him a German, but he was born in Austria, and he was grown up there to. Thats reason why i deleted him from your list. I think its not in the intrest of wikipedia to ignore this truth, even when its popular. Sorry for my poor english, but I'm (take a guess...) German.

Certainly, the crucial question is how to define Austrians and Germans. Nevertheless, in my opinion Hitler was both, Austrian and German. He was Austrian because, as you rightly pointed out, he was born and raised in Austria. He was German, because he got the German citizenship and was chancellor of Germany. This resembles in some way to Arnold Schwarzenegger who can be regarded as an American and as Austrian as well, since he was born and raised in Austria, but at the same time is an naturalized US-citizen and the governor of California. Nobody would erase Arnold Schwarzenegger from the list of famous US-Americans. Therefore I included Adolf Hitler in the article. Gugganij 22:51, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

The reason, however, is that people can become American. Other countries, however, are more genetically based, no? Or, at least in a birthright sense of the idea. You wouldn't call an immigrant to Japan Japanese, would you? Andyklus. (sorry for editing, 2nd time commenting.)

In the List?

please add to the list

• Hugo von Trimberg
• Süßkind von Trimberg
• Michael Spindler
• Max Wien

--Sheynhertz_געשׁ״ך 16:45, 25 September 2005 (UTC)

• Christian Zeller (will add)
• Otto von Guericke — Preceding unsigned comment added by Redmosquito86 (talk • contribs) 05:48, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

It seems to me that anyone who has his or her own article in the Wikipedia for a given language should be entered in the corresponding list of that Wikipedia ; and that it might be possible to find the missing ones with a bit of system software. 82.163.24.100 (talk) 20:48, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Hitler was not German

Adolf Hitler was NOT German, I repeat, was not. He was born near Linz, Austria (Osterreich), and last time I checked, that was a separate nation in 1889, and remains to this day. He just considered himself German. Hitler should be removed from that list. Эрон Кинней 22:14, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

He was naturalized and later became chancellor of Germany. Quite strong evidence, isn't it?. Gugganij 00:12, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Not really. His blood was Austrian, and naturalizing him as a citizen can't change it. Эйрон Кинни (t) 11:43, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

So what you're saying is that it's the purity of the blood that counts? How ironic... --Corinthian 17:09, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

For sure that counts in this article! This article is about ETHNIC Germans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.94.186.41 (talk) 20:05, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

- So Austrians are not ethnic Germans - how laughable. 1. He was born in Braunau am Inn, which is situated at the border between the two political areas. 2. If Austrians are not Germans in larger terms, why don't they speak their own language like the Swiss (partly)? If the political argument counts, then there was no German citizen before 1871. Before we would have to talk about Prussians, Bavarians, Saxons only. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.158.196.93 (talk) 08:45, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

German is a nationality based on a nation and an ethnicity. However Austrians consider themselves Austrian German. Brunswick gave citizenship to Hitler so he could take over the country and led millions of people to death. If you are Canadian and an anglo-Canadian this does not make you American even though you have a similar ethnic group! Case in point he was an infamous Austrian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.82.3.26 (talk) 03:20, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

Hitler can be considered as a German

The decent of Austrians comes from Germanic tribes such as the Bavarians and Alemanni descendants of whom live in both Germany and Austria. I suppose if Hitler can't be considered German then there can't be anyone with a hyponated nationality i.e. Swedish-American. Informationguy

Jews are not German

The jews on this list of germans should be taken off. The jews already have a list on your website specifically for jews. The reason for this is that if there were not any germanic people there would not be a german people or germanyand the jews are not germanic, jews are a middle eastern people. Lets say hypothetically that if jews had come into northern europe and there were no other people there(neither celtic nor germanic) jews would not call the countries that they live in france,germany, england, or ireland they would call thema middle eastern name. Let's also say hypothetically that if all the germanic and celtic people were wiped of the face of the earth there is no way that jews would continue calling themselves french german english or white for that matter. The nationhood of those countries depend on the germanic and celtic people who had settled in those areas and fought to keep them. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.42.24.8 (talk • contribs)

Jews is not a people. They are a religious group of multible ethnicities. 12:48, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Should be added: Ernst Mayr Johann gregor Mendel —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.189.132.246 (talk • contribs)

Albert Einstein, Anne Frank, they were all ethnic German-Jews. Эйрон Кинни (t) 11:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

"Ethnic German-Jews"? Albert Einstein was ethnically an Ashkenazim Jew with a German passport. He wouldn't have, and in fact didn't, considered himself a German. Same with Anne Frank. She also wasn't ethnically German.

The same applies for Mendelssohn-Barthldy and G. Meyerber. That's why I removed them from the list. Bogorm (talk) 14:25, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

"German" is a nationality. Everyone with a German passport is by definition German. The Nazis tried to come up with separate definitions in order to drive out or kill Jewish Germans whose families had lived in Germany for centuries. No idea what Einstein's feelings about his nationality were and if he developed them before or after the rise of Nazism to power. However, a lot of German Jews were very patriotic, fought in WW I, and so on. They certainly considered themselves German. Besides, with the logic of who came from where, lots of white, protestant or catholic Germans with roots in the Netherlands, France, Poland or any other of the neighboring countries would not be German. In fact, nobody would remain "German" if you go back far enough. We all come from some place in Africa, after all.--134.130.4.46 14:19, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

All protestants would be German, all catholics Italian, all buddhists Indian. All English people would actually be Germans (Celts, Angles, Saxons), or Scandinavians (Normans, Dutch). There won't be any Americans, since even the "Native" Americans came over from Asia. Almost all Eastern Europeans, including Hungarians and Finns would actually be Russians. The only true Europeans would be the Basks. Except that they also came from Africa... -- megA (talk) 22:16, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Anne Frank was not german. Where as Albert Einstein had a german passport and spoke German, he was definetly a german. Anne Frank was a citicen of the Netherlands and spoke Dutch. She should not be on the list of Germans but on the list of Dutch people. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.215.64.116 (talk) 12:28, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree whole-heatedly with the subject of this post. I am German, but was not born there, nor have I ever visited. I am still self and openly regarded as part of the Volk because I am. To say otherwise would be offensive, just as it may offend a Jew born in Antarctica to tell him he is not a Jew. Simply living in a geographical location does not make you a native. Einstein could equally be regarded as an American and does not belong on this list. The same would go with the others. Lars2701 (talk) 15:49, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

Sophie Scholl

Please strike out the entry of Sophie Scholl under the headline "Personalities of the Nazi Party and Regime"! she definetely is not a person of the Nazi Party and Regime! She died fighting against these criminals! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.142.251.206 (talk • contribs) 198.82.28.90

Inclusion of non-Nazi's in the Nazi list

I don't believe its fair to list men like Erwin Rommel under the Nazi headline. Was he a famous person in Germany during Hitler's reign? Yes. Was he a Nazi? No, and he gave his life proving that. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.82.28.90 (talk • contribs)

I also don't think Rommel was a Nazi, but he didn't die to prove that. After the attempted coup on July 20th the Nazis asked him to either commit suicide or watch his family be killed. He chose his family and killed himself.--134.130.4.46 14:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The Porsche family

As there is no list criteria, does the list only cover Germans at birth only or also include German nationals as the older generation were not born in Germany, as I have included three names from the Porsche automobile corporation that is German, of the lot Ferry Porsche is a German citizen. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Willirennen (talk • contribs)

Copernicus & Hevelius

The list of Poles contains "Mikolaj Kopernik" (since January 2003, shortly after that list was created), and many others like "Jan Heweliusz". As long as these claims are made, Nikolaus Kopernikus, Johannes Hevelius etc. deserve to be mentioned on the List of Germans, too. -- Matthead ^discuß!     O       19:54, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

It would seem fair to list disputed people like Copernicus in both lists, yes. john k 20:06, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

I would like to see modern sources that clearly state he was German. That would justify including him on this list. Balcer 20:21, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Due to recent edit warring at Johannes Hevelius (less so at Nicolaus Copernicus), both controversial figures were added under an extra "See also" section to Category:German astronomers and Category:Polish astronomers, to inform about the claims. I think they should be in neither of these categories themselves, or in both at once. Of course they are in the Category:17th century astronomers resp. Category:16th century astronomers. While the List of Germans does not show them, the List of Poles still features them with pictures and Polish naming (this is English Wikipedia, in case someone forgot). -- Matthead  DisOuß   19:57, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

The List_of_Polish_people#Astronomy continues to include these two German-speaking astronomers. They need to be re-added here, after having been removed by Polish edit-warriors in 2007. -- Matthead  Discuß   15:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Two Essential Additions to the Military List

1. Gebhard Leberecht von Blücher (1742-1819).

2. Helmuth von Moltke (the Elder), 1800-91. Norvo (talk) 17:42, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

Mozart is Austrian

Mozart is Austrian! Nobody in their right mind follows the silly historically based logic given for including him on this list. Salzburg was an independent country ruled by an archbishop at that time now it is a province in Austria. Austria claims Salzburg as Austrian history just like Bavaria is German history... Austria claims him and should. Germany today does not and should not. Nobody claims that all Austrians are really German or still German? Silly. I mean by that logic all Austrians born at the time when the nation was part of the German Bund are German. Austrian nationality is based on political history. They may be ethnic Germans but they have a different political and cultural history than Germany. Are the USA and Canada the same? no either. Can you tell me when Salzburg was part of the modern German Reich? This is wrong. Not real history. This site is looking awful silly if Mozart on this list. Sounds and smacks of nasty pan-German or neo-nazism too me. nonsense. total nonsense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.82.3.26 (talk) 03:15, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

The 2nd Republic of Austria is still the successor state to the Archdiocese of Salzburg. It is that simple. It has nothing to do with the modern state of Germany! Mozart was a Salzburger and that makes him Austrian by history. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.82.13.92 (talk) 02:54, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

Maybe the category Swabian people would also fit. His father came from Augsburg and was temporary engaged in Salzburg, where Wolfgang was born. But apart from this: He was neither a citizen of the modern Federal Republic of Germany nor of the modern Republic of Austria, but of the Holy Roman Empire of the German nation, whose head was the Emperor in Vienna. German speaking inhabitants considered themselves Swabians, Bavarians, Austrians, Prussians etc, perhaps even in the first instance, but all considered themselves as Germans. One should not try to apply current imaginations to former times. --Henrig (talk) 17:47, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Nicolaus Copernicus

I have reverted an edit removing Copernicus. There should be discussion and consensus before a controversial removal such as this. There are enough sources out there arguing that Copernicus probably had German as a first language to at least make an arguable case for inclusion here. Because he is on the Polish list does not automatically exclude him here, Wikipedia has to deal with contradictory sources all the time, and often, the best thing for an encyclopedia to say is that the sources do not agree. SpinningSpark 16:19, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

There should be a section of German Inventors

German inventions, from the thermometer, to telephone (yes), to car, to the first rocket in space, to the mp3, have no doubt impacted humanity significantly. There should be a separate section, and not just have some of them lumped in with "others". Lars2701 (talk) 16:09, 25 December 2010 (UTC)

In some fashion, I agree, there should be a heading ... whether it is scientists, inventors, or something other.--Epeefleche (talk) 20:39, 19 September 2011 (UTC)