Talk:List of countries and outlying territories by total area

China's numbers?

I just figured out the answer hence I deleted my original question.

The Greenland description

I'm going to change it from "constituent country" to "autonomous province".

From the Danish Government's website:

"The Kingdom of Denmark also has 2 autonomous provinces – the Faroe Islands and Greenland."

Link: http://www.denmark.dk/en/menu/About-Denmark/Denmark-In-Brief

In the Greenland Home Rule Act from 1978, Greenland is referred to as a "community";

"Greenland is a distinct community within the Kingdom of Denmark."

The act was also a decision made in conformity with the Greenland >Provincial< Council.

In the ACT ON GREENLAND SELF-GOVERNMENT from 2008, Greenland is referred to as a "people";

"Recognizing that the people of Greenland is a people pursuant to international law with the right of self-determination, the Act is based on a wish to foster equality and mutual respect in the partnership between Denmark and Greenland."

Never was Greenland referred to as a country in any of the two acts, but it is referred to as an "autonomous province" by the Danish Government, and thereby the Kingdom of Denmark, which Greenland is a part of. Org.aidepikiw (talk) 13:23, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

For consistency, this article should use the same description as that given in the Greenland article. Currently that says "autonomous country" - if you don't like it then the best place to discuss would be Talk:Greenland. Bazonka (talk) 06:15, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Sudan has split

Changes need to be made --92.48.112.74 (talk) 01:45, 9 July 2011 (UTC)

Well done - quick work ! MarcusCole12 (talk) 02:35, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, saying it in this talk page won't do much in the article. I don't know if the Sudan's were there separately when the "Well done" above was written, but right now there is only one Sudan on the list. 82.141.94.80 (talk) 14:13, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

People keep adding it without a citation giving evidence of its size. User:Polaron then removes it because there's no citation. Both of these approaches are wrong. Since the country definitely exists it should be listed (otherwise we'll end up in an endless cycle of re-adding and removing), but a citation needed tag should be added until a proper source is found. Bazonka (talk) 15:42, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, List of countries and outlying territories by land area has total area splitted as 1,885,000 and 620,000, but those figures should probably be here. Though they might also be non-cited. 82.141.94.80 (talk) 03:50, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

I updated Sudan using the CIA, which also placed it at 16th. However the CIA area for South Sudan is higher than the BBC's, and would shift it. I haven't changed it though, as I don't think the CIA is any more reliable than the BBC. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 20:52, 12 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, what about the List of countries and outlying territories by land area? As I said before, it has the total area of former Sudan splitted as land area as whole. In List of countries by percentage of water area is said that former Sudan had a water percentage of 5.18, so the outright split is not right. I have mentioned tha also in its talk page. 85.217.40.33 (talk) 06:28, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Total land area of Earth

This article has the figure 148,940,000 km². But in List of islands by area, summing up continents and 7 largest islands gives 152,728,751 km², almost 3.8 million km² more. I don't know if the continent figures are right in that article, but something is not right. 82.141.72.135 (talk) 13:01, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, for one thing, the figures in this article won't include Antarctica. There's also, as noted in various places, disputes over whether to count coastal waters and various other things that could account for some of the difference. 50.72.223.210 (talk) 20:57, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, Antarctica is not on the list, but that wasn't the point at all. If Antarctica is also missing from "total" land area figure, then it obviously is not the right figure. But just this article should have the "total" area, which should be the biggest. Now it is the wrong way, and as such does not make sense. 85.217.43.40 (talk) 21:54, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Italics

Various territories like Greenland are listed in italics. They seem to be generally territories that are semi-autonomous and detached, such that they might technically belong to another country on the list, but it would be misleading to just include them in that country's count. This is all well and good, but shouldn't the article actually say that somewhere? As far as I can see, nowhere does it explain what the italics actually mean. 50.72.223.210 (talk) 21:00, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Good point. I've updated the article. Bazonka (talk) 21:14, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

British Indian Ocean Territory

This territory has "no indigenous population" according to CIA World Factbook. Therefore I believe it does not meet the stated criteria for inclusion on this list. Its sole population consists of military and related contractors.

88.183.203.26 (talk) 04:30, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

You're right, it doesn't meet inclusion criteria. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 05:12, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

The criteria is to exclude uninhabited dependent territories. There is no definition of inhabitants. BIOT is definitely inhabited (albeit by non-native military personnel), so why should it be removed? Bazonka (talk) 10:02, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

By that definition, the antarctic territories should also be included, inhabited as they are by non-native scientific personnel. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:09, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Area

The total area of all the entities listed is 136,128,013. With Antarctica it would be well over 150,000,000. The figure of 148,800,000 for the total land area is wrong. Npi2000 (talk) 14 November 2011 (UTC)

This is a list of total areas, not just land areas. --Lasunncty (talk) 10:13, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Territory of Wake Island

If places such as the BIOT are to be included than wake island must be included as well since it has a population in a similiar manner as the British Indian Ocean Territory.XavierGreen (talk) 23:57, 16 November 2011 (UTC)

I agree. This is being taken care of in the merger. --Lasunncty (talk) 10:13, 17 November 2011 (UTC)

Ecuador

BBC has a total area of 272,045 sq km (105,037 sq miles) [1]. CIA has a total area of 283,561 sq km (109,483 sq miles) [2]. Where does the figure of 256,369 / 98,985 come from? Smarkflea (talk) 01:05, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

The source for nearly all of the areas in this list, including Ecuador's, is the United Nations Demographic Yearbook [3]. Bazonka (talk) 16:30, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Changes for Consistency

To be consistent with the page List of countries by population I would suggest the following changes

Should be listed seperately

Réunion (France)

Guadeloupe (France)

Martinique (France)

French Guiana (France)

Mayotte (France)

Åland Islands (Finland)

BES Islands (Netherlands)

Christmas Island (Australia)

Cocos (Keeling) Islands (Australia)

Should be removed as they have no permanent population other than military or scientific personnel.

French Southern and Antarctic Lands

South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands

British Indian Ocean Territory

Sapient Homo (talk) 23:04, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

I think it'd be better if that list followed this one, especially in regards to the French and Finnish territories above. Unpopulated areas have areas, and so while irrelevant in the population list they are relevant here. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 03:18, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

The list should follow it's stated inclusion critierion, i.e. ISO 3166-1, which does IIRC split off some French territories. We might not see it as very consistent, but it's a useful international standard and as such probably better than coming up with something on our own. (As you note, the population list has a slightly different rule anyway.) Pfainuk talk 09:48, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Either add all dependencies and overseas territories whether inhabited or uninhabited as seperate entities or add them to the parent country. Don't do half and half. Sapient Homo (talk) 00:25, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

For the population list, I tend to think of uninhabited territories as excluded altogether rather than added into a "parent country", but in practice it makes no difference (an uninhabited territory, by definition, having zero permanent inhabitants). They are excluded to avoid having a long list of zeroes at the bottom of the list, and the rule is specified in the lede for that list.

On this list, we do (or should) include all entities on ISO 3166-1, regardless of whether they are inhabited or not. While uninhabited territories have no population, they do have land area and thus are relevant to this list. ISO 3166-1 will not match everyone's view of ideal criteria for a list such as this - it doesn't match mine - but it is a good reliable source that draws a clear in-or-out line, thus making it clear that we are avoiding original research. Pfainuk talk 10:08, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

We should bear in mind the differences in legal status between some of these territories. Some of the French ones are legally part of France (e.g. French Guiana), and so logically they should be listed with France, although with a comment explaining the areas of the different parts. Other territories belong to, and are controlled by, another country, but are legally separate from it (e.g. BIOT is a British territory, but is not part of the UK) - these should be kept separate. Population is an irrelevance in an article about geographic area (although clearly of importance to the population article), and therefore I feel that all territories should be listed, including those that are uninhabited. This is a legacy of the UN source that we use, which is primarily a table of population statistics. For example, its entry for Switzerland excludes state forests from the area statistics, presumably because these are unpopulated and not covered by the Swiss census. This is clearly a nonsensical exclusion when reporting the country's area. Bazonka (talk) 10:48, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

It appears the remnants of the Netherlands Antilles (Sint Eustatius, Saba, Bonaire) are not listed anywhere. They need to be part of Netherlands or a separate entry or maybe three entries.  Randall Bart   Talk  05:47, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

This page will probably eventually have to be merged into List of countries by area and I've been working on the inconsistencies and POV problems generated by the sources used. On User:Night w/Sandbox/Workpage 2 I've used the UN document as the main source, but with other sources used to fill in the issues that Bazonka raises (with Switzerland, for example). The only problem is that I can't seem to find a matching source for the other columns (land, water, % water) that uses the same method of calculation. The CIA uses a different method for U.S. territories; they include coastal waters in the totals (but they don't do this for foreign territories). Does anyone know any UN documents publishing land, water and % water? Nightw 12:05, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

Largest country in Europe?

86.143.211.54 (talk) 00:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)According to the article France is larger than the Ukraine because the figure includes overseas territories in the Republic of France. (Ukraine is listed as the largest country wholly within Europe.) This is inconsistent with the treatment of the Kingdom of Denmark, which, if all its territorie are included, is by far the largest European country. Was the article edited by a republican, or is there some other logic at work here? Similarly, figures for the UK do not include British Overseas Territories, although one of those is the British Antartic Territory, parts of which are claimed by Argentina and Chile.

The difference is that some of the French territories (e.g. French Guiana and Martinique) are part of France. They are as much a part of France as Corsica, Brittany and Paris. On the other hand, Greenland and the British Overseas Territiories have a different status: they belong to Denmark and the UK, but they are not part of those countries. They are therefore listed separately in this article. Also note that the Antarctic claims are largely unrecognised and are not included here, except as footnotes. Bazonka (talk) 07:29, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually, Greenland is part of Denmark, so the IP has quite a good point. I'd say they're right. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:02, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Not really. Greenland is a self-governing constituent country within the Kingdom of Denmark, but it's not part of Denmark proper. We could debate both sides of this argument till the cows came home, but there's no point because Greenland is in North America. It is therefore still correct to state that Ukraine is the largest country entirely in Europe. Bazonka (talk) 12:59, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Autonomy doesn't make something not part of a country. I'm not worried about Ukraine so much as France being the largest West European country. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:25, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

If you exclude its overseas departments, France is still larger than Spain, the next largest country in Western Europe. So yes, I think it is fine to refer to it as the largest Western European country (as long as we don't refer to it as wholly European). Similarly, Russia is the largest Eastern European country, even though most of it is in Asia, because its European part is larger than Ukraine.

Regarding Greenland (despite me saying that there was no point in discussing it...), it is not part of Denmark the country, instead it is a separate country within the larger Kingdom of Denmark. (The Faroe Islands are the third country within the kingdom.) It's an unusual set-up, but I think you are confusing the country with the kingdom. Bazonka (talk) 18:50, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Regarding French Guiana, a good analogy might be Hawaii, which is far away from the mainland U.S., but is still an integral part of it. Then there's Guam, which is closely tied to the U.S., but is not part of the core...Smarkflea (talk) 19:24, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

The official title of Denmark is the Kingdom of Denmark. It is one country, and a unitary one. It could be compared to the devolved powers in the UK, however obviously Greenland and the Faroes have far far more autonomy than any part of the UK. An unusual set up it is, but legally they form one state (as opposed to the BOTs or Guam). Chipmunkdavis (talk) 03:27, 17 January 2012 (UTC)