Talk:List of prisons in the United Kingdom

Naming

I came here from a link (and found the location was wrong, so corrected it). More to the point, there didn't appear to be a consistent naming scheme, so I'm going through and creating one using the formal names structure, ie. "HMP Slade" with the pagenames as "Slade {HM Prison)" so that the pipe trick may be used. This also has the benefit of automatically disintermediating UK prisons from others (for instance, 'Albany prison' linked to the one in Australia, not the Isle of Wight!) --Vamp:Willow 11:52, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I've now discovered that "Her Majesty's Prisons" exist outside the UK. I hadn't realised we still exported convicts! anyway, all the renaming is done and redirects disintermediated (except one section when I lost my line but I shall do that now). Noting that a lot of the UK prisons have very little information I might consider it as "my project" when I get some time. --Vamp:Willow 22:11, 3 May 2005 (UTC)

I'd have preferred to see HMP Slade, which is also unambigous, and is the usual form in prose. Morwen - Talk 09:43, 29 December 2005 (UTC)

So would I. Proteus (Talk) 20:08, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

Table

This would really be more useful as a sortable table... anyone feel like doing it? Mauls 18:05, 19 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm now working on it (just when you thought it would never happen!) DB 103245 ^talk 20:07, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Congratulations on the new table format much more usable. Keith D (talk) 00:41, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Expansion

Further to the above, I'm working on fleshing out the table, and intend to add refs as necessary. DB 103245 ^talk 20:43, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

It's a great table and long overdue. Any chance all the Young Offenders Insitutions and Juvenile prisons can have their security category also put in the notes section? ...as they are graded. Also, I can't help feel that the 'historic' (or more precisely defunct) prisons should be taken out of this list and possibly put in another. After all, this article doesnt even list all of the historic prisons in the UK (with wiki articles), and to add them would make the list large and unweildy. Any thoughts? Bleaney (talk) 21:13, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

I had thought to remove the historic bits altogether - I've split them into another table for now rather than outright deletion. As for grading, are you aware of any decent sources other than the HMPS website? It seems to be a bit hit and miss when it comes to grading, although I haven't dug too deeply yet. It would help if the lines between different grades didn't appear to be so blurred... Next steps I can identify are to finish capacity column with refs, finish 'grading' - perhaps with it's own column, and either have notes as a new column or do away with it? Also might be worth adding in opening dates. Obviously Scotland and Ireland should follow when England & Wales is up to scratch. I'm about done for this evening, unless I get a bout of insomnia tonight, but will continue tomorrow afternoon. DB 103245 ^talk 22:20, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately grading of prisons (i.e. their security category) is a little blurred. Many Category B prisons have Category C wings, and Some Category A prisons have Category B AND Category C wings. The only definitive place on the web I have come across at present is the individual prison pages on the HMPS website, although even there, not all prison pages are explicit about their grading. It's also worth mentioning that women's prisons are also graded, but to a different structure (Category A, Closed Category, Semi-Open Category, and Open Category). In light of this, a separate 'Grade' column (possibly called 'Security Category') could be a good idea, as essentially ALL prisons in England and Wales have some type of grading. There also may be a problem with the 'Young Offenders Institute' and 'Juvenile Detention Centre' labels, as many adult prisons now have YOI wings and some YOI's have juvenile wings. This is particularly true of women's prisons. Again, the lines have been blurred. Bleaney (talk) 23:45, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm... not sure on the best way to present complex categories in a table format. One possible solution would be to present more general info - ie just note which are YOI, JDC, and womens facilities (as I've already done with Private sector prisons), and ensure that fuller info about security cats is included in the actual articles (I think it already is included in most if not all articles anyway). Anyways, this time I really must leave it for tonight - gotta get some sleep :-) DB 103245 ^talk 01:18, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

I've removed reference to security cats for now until a user friendly way of displaying the information can be found - the official sources seem to be a bit hit and miss with what info they show, so referencing could be a problem. I've also had thoughts about merging the info about secure hospitals into the main prison table as there are so few - any thoughts? Meanwhile I'm plodding through adding capacity info. DB 103245 ^talk 17:43, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Security categories

I've now populated the England & Wales table with capacity figures, and differentiated adult prisons from young offenders (not highlighted juvenile facilities as yet). Having done that I've tested out a few ideas for displaying security categories - the best I can come up with is this:

Name	Location	County	Operator	Capacity	Adults	Young Offenders	Juveniles
HMP Male	Example	Exampleshire		1001	Y Category A/B
YOI Female	Test	Testshire	Private	101		Category C

Obviously(?) blue denotes male only inmates, and pink denotes female (yes I know it's cliched but i'm open to suggestions) - that only leaves Peterborough which accepts both male and female. Also I'm not sure whether it looks better with or without the tick - any comments? I'll leave it a couple of days before actually changing anything - meanwhile I'm going to look at improving the Scottish table. Lastly I'm assuming YOI which don't specify sex are male only - can anyone confirm? DB 103 245-7 Talk 16:16, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

This is much better, though again, remember that women's prisons are not generally rated as Category B/C, they use their own classifications. I think its fair to assume that YOI's that dont specify are male. Just a note as well to say that Scottish prisons dont use the Catefory A/B/C/D system, they generally follow the American system of Maximum, Medium and Minimum Security prisons, though again, some prisons are vague as to their status. Bleaney (talk) 16:33, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Oh, and I quite like the tick! Bleaney (talk) 16:38, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, Bleaney. Bear in mind that the categoryss I've displayed are just to illustrate the idea - they aren't based on any particular system. One compromise to avoid clouding the issue of security categories on this list would be as it currently stands - simply don't mention them, leaving it to the articles where it can be fully discussed in prose. I do think that including them would improve things if only a way can be found to display them concisely. If only things were simple! :-) Just for illustration here's the proposed table with no category included. I've also fixed column widths to improve the look of the thing.

Name	Location	County	Operator	Capacity	Adults	Young Offenders	Juveniles
HMP Male	Example	Exampleshire		1001	Y
YOI Female	Test	Testshire	Private	101

DB 103 245-7 Talk 17:17, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

It is problematic. And i'll admit that the security categories issue is probably why I have wimped out of trying to construct a table for this list before! On reflection I agree that perhaps the plethora of security categories in one list is undesirable... unless the list is split again, with women's prisons having their own table. That way, Security categories can be included in each list, with an appropriate link on each of their first entries to the corresponding section of Prison security categories in the United Kingdom. This would also avoid the need to use the blue/pink background. Any thoughts? Bleaney (talk) 18:09, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Not sure about further splitting into Male and Female - perhaps a new column Gender between Capacity and Adults? Merge Young Offenders and Juveniles into a single column, Young People, and add a category column. I've retained the colours for now - it breaks up the monotony of an otherwise fairly bland table, although I'm happy for them to go (not sure what colour Peterborough should be if colour coding is retained). What seems to be the biggest pain is the joint prison/YOI such as Chelmsford and several others. This latest plan gives something like this (again, categories are just plucked out of the air, so to speak):

Name	Location	County	Operator	Capacity	Gender	Adults	Young People	Security Category
HMP Male	Example	Exampleshire		1001	Male	Y		B-D
YOI Female	Test	Testshire	Private	101	Female	Y		Semi-Open
HMP/YOI Male	Both	Bothshire		501	Male	Y	Y	C; YOI

On another note, I'm inclined to agree with earlier discussion that the name column should follow along the lines of HMP Slade, although this would potentially bugger up the sortability of the table, especially when it comes to the likes of HMP/YOI Chelmsford etc. Arrrrgggghhh!!!! DB 103 245-7 ^Talk 18:44, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

lol, i'm all out of suggestions, but your latest offer looks good. Shame we have to lose the juvenile/YOI separate clumns though. Oh dear, i'm not being very constructive am I? Bleaney (talk) 22:57, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

On the contrary - i'm glad that someone else has an interest in seeing the list improved - it's getting personal now - it won't beat me lol. I merged the Young People columns to try and make the Sec Cat column less cluttered, but I've had another idea...:

Name	Location	County	Operator	Capacity	Gender	Juvenile Detention Centre	Young Offenders Institution	Adults	Adult Security Category
HMP Male	Example	Exampleshire		1001	Male	N	N	Y	B-C
YOI Female	Test	Testshire	Private	101	Female	N	N	Y	Semi-Open
HMP/YOI Male	Both	Bothshire		501	Male	N	Y	Y	C

I've moved the adult column next to the sec cat column, and split young people again. Colours are gone, since I don't think they quite looked right isolated in the middle of the table, and I've introduced the Xs just to see hoe they look. I won't introduce any changes to the article until at least tomorrow night - hopefully by then someone else might pop by and offer an opinion. DB 103 245-7 ^Talk 00:33, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Jesus, this is the daddy of all lists! I love it. This is exactly how I have always envisaged a prisons list table on this article. If no one else has an opinion ,then I say go for it. ! completely support this model, Well done! Bleaney (talk) 21:03, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Coming back to an earlier point about problems with sorting on the name column. You could always use a hidden sort key for the column as per here to circumvent the initial HMP/YOI tags in the names. Keith D (talk) 22:36, 21 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks guys. I hadn't thought of hidden sortkeys, although thinking about it I think I've seen it used before - I'll give it a try :-) I'll try and get a new version of the table sorted within the next couple of days. DB 103 245-7 ^Talk 05:32, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I've done a small table for Northern Ireland in the new style - it's up now. I'm working on England & Wales in Userspace to save making dozens of edits to the main article - work in progress can be found here if you can't wait (shoud be done tomorrow or Sunday i reckon) User:DB 103245/Prisons draft DB 103 245-7 ^Talk 18:09, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

Update

I'm still working on the England/Wales table in userspace here. Only thing which doesn't look quite right is the operator column, with all it's white space (11 private prisons out of 130-odd total). I've tried greying out the blank fields but that looks worse if anything. I propose removing the column (with the added bonus of improving the width of other columns on small screens), and adding footnotes to denote privately run prisons. Any thoughts? DB 103 245-7 ^Talk 10:58, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Forgot to add that it's taking a bit longer than planned to complete as I'm aiming to ensure it's fully referenced before I copy it over. DB 103 245-7 ^Talk 11:00, 25 October 2009 (UTC)