Talk:Luddite

Modern Perspective

To get one modern perspective, try to find a book called Sabotage in the American Workplace, I think from AK Press. It's just about a hundred stories summarized from interviews with real people about why they had (and in only one case, had not) done things at workk that they weren't "supposed" to do, everything from breaking equipment to get a break, to stealing supplies, to spitting in the soup. --JohnAbbe

Kirkpatrick Sales' 1996 book "Rebels Against the Future: The Luddites and their War on the Industrial Revolution" London: Quartet Books is worth a read. It concentrates on Luddites and touches on Neo-Luddites. For the insights of scientist looking at his work and the potential harm it may hold (esp. nanotechnology) take a look at: Joy, Bill (2001): "Why the Future Doesn’t Need Us" URL www.aaas.org/spp/rd/ch3.pdf (as printed in 'Wired' magazine). To examine other views on nanotechnology see ch4,5, and 6 within same site address. --RichardSeabury

Citations

It says in the main paragraph that the Luddites actually clashed in battle with the British army. Shouldn't this be cited? When did it happen?

71.96.148.75 (talk) 00:14, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Widen the scope of this article?

I think the scope of this article should be widened by including similar movements in other countries. In Germany and Switzerland, at least, there were similar actions around the same time, and which are alternatively known as "Luddismus" in German (besides "Maschinensturm", literally, 'machine assault').

Ideally, there would be two different terms:

1. A general term for 'any early anti-industrialization protest that resorted to destroying machines' – this would include the German and Swiss protest movements and the Swing Riots –;
2. a specific term for the English 1811/12 protest that originated in Nottingham and is associated with Ned Ludd.

Of course, we cannot just invent such a term since that would be original research. I think the best thing to do is move the article to Luddism, reword the introduction and include sections on the other similar movements.

Incidently, on the German Wikipedia there really are two articles for these two terms, de:Maschinentstürmer for the general term and de:Luddismus for the specific term – though the latter explicitly says that in German, the word "Luddismus" may be used synonymously to "Maschinensturm".

Incidently again, the interwiki links of article Swing Riots illustrate how confused these terms currently are because it links to the German article de:Maschinenstürmer which is clearly not an article about the Swing Riots, but about the general term. -- machᵗᵃˡᵏ👍 22:00, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Illustration citation?

"Frame breaking"- really? BUT- the luddites were smashing stocking frames, and this is not a stocking frame (see below).

There is no evidence that the illustration to the right has any relationship to the Luddites. This engraving, as of this date being used in the Luddite article was taken from a website [1] that does not document the source of meaning of the illustration.

This is a stocking frame similar to those smashed by the Luddites

I propose the current illustration be replaced with another, perhaps the stocking frame illustration because the current illustration misleads to viewer to believe a number of false concepts

• the machines were mostly located in factories (they weren't- they were mostly in shops and homes)
• the machines were highly mechanized (they weren't- they were human powered- not by belts driven by steam or water as depicted)
• the machines were big

"The nature of the machinery and the structure of the trade lent itself to the practice. The frames for the most part belonged to the master hosiers, who hired them out to their workmen, charging a frame rent of from 1s. to 2s. per week. " -Historian J. L. Hammond, expert on the Luddites writing in his book "The Skilled Labourer (1919)" [2]

Because there is strong evidence this illustration is at best misleading, I will replace the image later in the week until such time as there is authoritative citation that claims this image has anything to do with the Luddites. Certainly I will not do so if anyone wishes to delay until it is discussed further. -J JMesserly (talk) 18:30, 13 September 2011 (UTC)

Apparently, the engraving is of a power loom. Hammond states that in 1811 machine destruction involved frame breaking only. Nearly all other machines smashed by the luddites (about 1000) were stocking frames, according to Hammond (Chapter 9). In 1812 the movement spread to the cotton power loom industry in Lancaster (Chapter 10), and the wool cloth shearing frames in Yorkshire. A few factories of the power loom factories were attacked in Lancaster, and a few hundred wool frames were destroyed in Yorkshire.

This means the illustration is probably accurate, though only for the few events that occurred in Lancaster. It is clear that the general meaning that the reader takes from the article is not in line with what Hammond is relating. -J JMesserly (talk) 00:26, 14 September 2011 (UTC)