Talk:Māori culture

--Te Karere (talk) 11:28, 28 December 2011 (UTC)

Untitled

This article contains spelling errors, inaccuracies, but most seriously is very limited in scope.

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Most of the spelling mistakes are gone. The inaccuracies are those of emphasis rather than fact. It is limited in scope because it is a huge subject, megabytes. "English Culture" is described in Wikipedia under many different articles and Maori Culture, and I don't mean singing and concerts, is fully as complex. Concepts such as Wairua, Muru, Utu, Whakama, Whakapapa, Tangata Whenua, Tapu and many others all need explanation. A very difficult article to write properly. Meanwhile this is a good start. ping 08:16, 11 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Duplication of articles

There is a quite a lot of duplicated content between this article and the Māori article (which also has similar problems of tone and content etc.) There are also some other more specifically titled articles/stubs, eg, the one about Haka - (a topic mentioned here and in the Māori article).

I'm thinking that the Māori article - with its non-specific title - should be something like a disambiguation page that contains links to specific articles like Māori culture, Māori language, Haka, Māori music, Religion. This article here seems to have fallen asleep - it isn't as easy to find, whereas the Māori article is.

Anyone object if I gradually move stuff out of Māori into the more specific articles? Kahuroa 19:58, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

What you suggest seems very sensible to me. Bucketsofg 18:43, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Violence

I know I am probably walking on land-mine ground here, but shouldn't this article include a discussion about the high rates of violence/domestic violence in Maori society, and the theories behind? Surely, while a balancing act, a NPOV section could be written on that. MadMaxDog 10:29, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Maori Culture

I get what your trying to say here MadMaxDog Im a Maori Myself and yet this is certainly not an attractive subject to be talking about, But it is something that needs to be discussed off the Maori culture page and on the violence/domestic violence in Maori society Wikipedia.They are certainly to separate topics. Maori today are trying to develop healther lifestyles and moving forward with the positives, It is people like you that only dwell on the bad! Mow your own back lawns before you start mowing ours.And remember Violence happens in every culture and we are a small group of that. Move on Koretake. Aotearoa Kia Kaha —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.169.186.10 (talk) 02:33, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Ive been waiting for an editor to add in a section on this topic as its perhaps the critical part of modern Maori culture. After waiting 4 years Ive added a summary from a variety of sources. The stats are almost all from a 2007 study by the NZ Justice Dept but they used stats from 2004.I dont think the stats will have got much better though there was a 7% drop in all reported crime in 2010 -2011. I dont think there is any getting away from the fact that Maori suffer froma lot of violence within our culture and this is not a new thing-I note that wiki descibes Maori as having a well deveolped warrior culture after about 1500. A few years back a scientist said he had found Maori had a genetic predisposition to violence.I think he was referring to the high risk taking gene which is a real thing,not fantasy.To my certain knowledge young Maori are exceptionally high in the risk taking stakes.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.89.178.121 (talk) 07:06, 22 November 2011‎ (UTC)

Feel free to ask at the discussion page of the Māori task force if you want to discuss Māori content with other editors. This is certainly a topic that needs to be mentioned on Wikipedia, but the Māori culture article isn't the best place for it. The present situation is more a socioeconomic phenomenon, with origins in the mass urban migrations of the 20th century. A better place to mention it would be in a Māori society article. I'm happy to start one up if need be. Cheers. – Liveste (talk • edits) 07:52, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

No, the(multiple) research both in Nz and overseas, says you are wrong-the key factors in Maori child abuse crime are the abuse of alcohol and drugs. The next most important factor is the extreme youth of many Maori mothers and the very poor judgement they show in living with casual partners who are not the father of their children. Maori culture is exactly the right place for the information to be as it is such a dominating factor in how many Maori choose to live their lives.It is not an attractive part of the culture but it is very real for the abused children. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.89.178.121 (talk) 20:05, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

What you've outlined are the major underlying causes of crime and violence, and these are certainly not in dispute (you can add lower incomes and educational underachievement to them, as well). Many of these problems (and their underlying causes) became pronounced among Māori after urbanisation, and the resulting failure of large numbers of (usually young) Māori to adjust socially. More importantly though, in any context crime, drug/alcohol abuse and parental neglect are social issues, not cultural ones. Culture and society certainly influence each other, but they shouldn't be confused. The information belongs in a Māori society article. – Liveste (talk • edits) 09:57, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

If you read Maori history you will find countless examples or arbitrary Maori violence described by early settlers, whalers,Pakeha/Maori and other who could write.Later Maori historians descibe the same in detail. Extreme and sudden violence,including murder, was accepted as a quite normal part of culture, usually dished out by alpha males ,often to the lower status noa class and slaves and in a domestic setting, to women.This pattern is still going on with most Maori violence being directed at neighborhood Maori or even whanau. In the early period this was happening in areas where there were no drugs alcohol,education (as it is now understood)or money. It seems to have been a natural cultural action among Maori to maintain the status quo of hapu ie being lead by alpha males ready to defend their rohe against outsiders. Stealing could be explained as an "accepted" cultural norm following the muru or plunder tradition, whereby neighbours tried to square squabbles by taking/stealing goods. Sometimes cultural practices last for hundreds of years -well after they are formally or legally banned. The caste system in India is a good example. Its been illegal for 60 years but is still common in rural areas. Also society is just a subset of culture. Culture gives the big picture. Low income is not a real factor, otherwise Asians, who have the lowest incomes for any group would expect to have a high crime rate c-in fact their rate is low,about the same as pakeha.In other words, just being poor is not an excuse or reason to commit crime. Low educational achievement is an outcome of disfunctional whanau where the key problems are drugs, alcohol and crime. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.89.178.121 (talk) 22:35, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

If you read any country's history, you will find countless examples of arbitrary – and systematic – violence. And stealing. Even in modern Māori society, criminal violence isn't considered normal, since most Māori neither suffer it nor condone it. Please don't mistake me here: unacceptably high numbers of Māori suffer from violence, and to a higher degree than other ethnic groups in New Zealand do. But to consider violence as a "normal" part of Māori society is a gross misinterpretation of statistics. Even in history, there is no consensus among historians to indicate that violence was more prevalent in traditional Māori society than the maintenance of peaceful relations with other people and tribal groups (which was also the responsibility of hapū leaders). Keep in mind that there are countless examples of non-violence in Māori history, society and culture.

And however you conceptualise the relationship between society and culture, "society" is a distinct concept: equating social issues with culture is uselessly imprecise. Saying that one influences the other is a different story, although the connections between cultural heritage and modern social issues as they pertain to Māori (or indeed anyone) must also be outlined and referenced in a way that reflects the consensus of mainstream academic opinion, particularly when it comes to causal mechanisms. The statistics you've provided in the article are generally regarded as social issues rather than cultural ones, and your abovementioned examples do not change the fact that the information you've provided is most relevant in a Māori society article. I've already started drafting one: once it's published, your input would be appreciated. Cheers.– Liveste (talk • edits) 21:16, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

I'd just like to say that I've been following this and I agree with the above opinion, that of user Liveste. I agree that a Māori society article, so long as it was actively maintained by users to filter out nonsensical or unencyclopedic comments, would work as a way to distinguish between the differences in Māori Culture and Māori Society. It might be worth considering how these two concepts have been separated and defined (by Wikipedia) in other native societies throughout the world, so as to make Wikipedia more structured in this area. I also believe that the article would have to remain objective and factual, choosing fact over opinion or expression; references to NZ statistical sites etc. would have to be considered. I also question the depth and actual value such an article would have, considering the strong potential for bias that will usually come from something so controversial. Wikipedia is not the place for us and them articles and this would have to, again, be considered in the drafting. That said, I do believe it is both feasible and potentially problem solving. Look forward to reading the published article. On a side note, there is quite an extensive piece on Māori society within Māori People -- I think this needs to be evaluated for content and adjusted accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Retropheonix (talk • contribs) 07:32, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Kowhaiwhai Patterns

Just a note that I've put a bunch of high-quality svg images of Kowhaiwhai patterns on Wiki Commons (e.g. commons:Image:Maori-rafter29.svg) in commons:Category:Maori art. They're from Hamilton's 1896 Maori Art and since he's been dead since 1913 they're free of copyright. I'm a mathematician, interested in symmetry patterns and plan to use these as examples, but I thought someone who knows a little about Maori culture might want to use them somewhere on this page/on a new page.Bryanclair (talk) 04:43, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Non-traditional culture

This article could do with more references to non-traditional culture related to the Maori, e.g. Maori hip hop, the Maori sports teams and so on.--MacRusgail (talk) 09:18, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Merger Proposal

--Te Karere (talk) 10:51, 28 December 2011 (UTC)