Talk:Madam

Rhyming: I wish whoever put in the proper pronunciation rhymes would cit their sources. When I met Queen Elizabeth I was instructed differently as to the pronunciation of "ma'am". 05:10, 5 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree, I've never heard anyone refer to the Queen as ma'am and pronounced it like 'pam', always 'marm'. (Source: growing up in Britain!) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.87.21.6 (talk) 05:34, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

I find this intruiging: "Female judges of the High Court of Justice of England and Wales are titled Mrs. Justice rather than Madam Justice." Just out of curiosity, are thy referred to as 'Mrs.' as a courtesy title regardless of marital status? Quill 07:30, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Yep. Anyway, "Miss Justice X" would sound a little odd. Proteus (Talk) 10:08, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

WINAD

WP:WINAD (including a usage guide) but no one really cares about that these days. - PhilipR 21:25, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Removed the "ma'am, yes, ma'am" line

Possibly the shortness of the word helps explain another, in a sense compensating, idiomatic but non-official practice in American English: emphatically saying Ma'am both in front and behind an obedient response in clear voice to the senior, especially during drill, e.g. 'Ma'am, yes, ma'am!'

This paragraph only makes sense if you're saying that the sentence is "compensating" "idiomatic" and "non-official". It is however, perfectly in line with proper military etiquette requiring subordinate individuals to address a superior beginning and ending each utterance with the the title of address for that person. Thus "Ma'am, yes, ma'am!" is entirely equivalent to "Sir, yes, sir" as "Ma'am" is the official title of address for a female officer, and "Sir" is the official title of address for a male officer (in the American Military).

The shortness also has nothing to do with this, as a trainee and subordinate is typically still expected to follow this formulaic address with longer titles of address, such as "First sergeant, yes, first sergeant!", "Sergeant major, yes, sergeant major!", "Drill sergeant, yes, drill sergeant!" (Drill Sergeants having a distinct title of address apart from their rank. It varies on the expectations if a drill sergeant is in fact a corporal, what his title of address would be, although it is typical to expect "Drill corporal, yes, drill corporal" to be the proper response.) --Puellanivis 19:28, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

Ma'am, not incorrect

I propose removal of the portion of the introduction which labels ma'am as an incorrect use of the word Madam. Titles such as these have changed throughout the years, and have been accepted. Although it may be incorrect to use ma'am in certain countries, in the United States it is not so necessarily. Nicholas SL Smith 06:16, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

How can ma'am be incorrect? It is merely an abbreviation with the removed letter noted by the apostrophe. 129.105.10.128 21:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree with the removal by 129.105.10.128. Nicholas SL Smith 22:14, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Just in terms of pronunciation, it is interesting that no American would never dream of pronouncing "ma'am" like "farm". Nor would they ever pronounce it like the (American) "mom". The phonetics implied in the pronunciation obviously have nothing to do with American speech, and perhaps the note should contain some indication as to what the assumptions are, or use IPA notation. AtomAnt (talk) 11:29, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

That is what I came in here to say. How the heck is one supposed to rhyme "ma'am" and "farm"? I'm no poet, but wouldn't any word rhyming with "farm" require the 'AR' syllable? Is there some vernacular in which people pronounce "ma'am" as "marm"? 68.222.247.4 (talk) 16:28, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

When I first read the line (and I'm not saying it's accurate WRT British police), I thought of the old term "school marm" for teacher and wondered if that is the same term. Any thoughts? 138.162.128.53 (talk) 13:03, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

For heavens' sake, people! Ma'am is sometimes pronounced as "Marm" when the double A (a'a) is pronounced as a long vowel instead of a short vowel, i.e. "aah". This pronunciation is used exclusively when addressing British royalty and aristocracy, and is not used by Brits in everyday situations. 79.74.55.27 (talk) 00:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the consenus above, I thought Ma'am (to refer to the Queen) would be closer to rhyming with "palm" than "pam". Although I accept that this might be because I don't speak proper like what Debrett's says I oughta. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.87.21.6 (talk) 05:29, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Madam as honorific

Could anyone who knows more about this add a section about the use of "Madam" in Southeast Asian English, where it comes before the maiden name of a married woman? As in Mr Lee's wife being simultaneously Mrs Lee and Mdm Tan? This is ubiquitous in places such as Singapore and IMHO needs a section here. JREL (talk) 10:03, 23 October 2008 (UTC)

Had a hard time finding decent refs for this, but there's now a brief mention. Should probably also note that this is a little old-fashioned now and also used by many divorcees. Jpatokal (talk) 12:42, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Ma'am is common in the Southern US and Western Canada?

I don't doubt it. I'm from the Midwest, it's common here too. I thought it was common everywhere in English-speaking North America to politely address strangers as ma'am and sir depending on their sex. Maybe the South uses it differently, but some clarification must be made here. By the way, how do English speakers outside North America address women whose names they don't know politely? 99.35.151.164 (talk) 20:55, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

I live in the South (Dallas, TX) and Ma'am, Sir, and Miss, (sometimes Ms. for divorcees) are used quite often. Also, I don't get the sexism here. I'm a woman, and do not think Miss or Ma'am is sexist. It's used when speaking politely to someone else. I am almost thirty, and prefer being called Miss (I look pretty young), but am okay with Ma'am (unfortunately by this age I guess I am a Ma'am). It only got annoying sometimes when I was called Ma'am in my late teens or early-mid twenties by a a small number of people. I am actually offended by the fact that the article says the use of such terms is sexist. Where is a source to back that up? Was this written by an ultra-feminist? I am a feminist, but that is a ridiculous statement. It could be said, that some women find that offensive, specifically some feminists. Any thoughts on changing the wording? CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 02:15, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

How is the term ma'am racist?

How is the term ma'am racist? One reference from an obscure, insignificant Michigan liberal arts college. Hardly qualifies it as racist. In the modern south, black and white women are commonly addressed as ma'am out of courtesy, and as a sign of good manners. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.217.8.240 (talk) 00:39, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

I concur. Also, I mentioned under another section on here that I found it offensive the article claimed the use of the term, as well as the use of 'Miss' was sexist. There is no source to back this up. Maybe some feminists find it offensive, but I don't know anyone personally offended by the term. The wording makes it seems as if everyone finds the word sexist. I am a woman by the way. CreativeSoul7981 (talk) 02:17, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

All those parts about ma'am being racist and sexist deserve a big POV stamp on them, EU Parliament ruling or not. One of the links is about an old lady who says she hates being called ma'am but she tips the waitperson (!) 50% every time he calls her miss. This is not political correctness, let alone objective reality: this is just the whims of some women out there who don't know what to do with their time. Another source given is a stupid discussion on the forum of allvegaspoker.com. I suggest adding a remark about this racist-sexy thing being the agenda of feminists, hardline liberals, whoever, and is NOT, as the article tries to suggest, a popular belief. (Actually with the average people I think it's rather a laughingstock.) Zigomer trubahin (talk) 18:41, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Much of what you say actually confirms what the article suggests, even if that usage is unsourced. Such generalizing and unfounded talk about liberals and "women who don't know what to do with their time" is fairly useless and borderline insulting. What should those feminists be doing with their time--crocheting? Drmies (talk) 20:15, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

To heck with it. I shouldn't find an entry for "madam" in Wikipedia, anyway. "Mayflower Madam", yes; word "madam", no. And with so much material unsourced and (as indicated by this talk page) controversial, I think this article should be deleted. NB: I actually tried editing first, but by the time I removed all the unverifiable material and opinions-stated-as-facts, there was nothing left! AnonTech (talk) 16:16, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

French origin

I know this word is much used in English speaking countries, but I think there should be more emphasis on the original use in the French language, which is mentioned much less than the use in English. Also, the shordened form "Mme" is not mentioned except for the redirect on top of the page, while even English "Mrs" is mentioned although it doesn't really have much to do with the topic. I know that this is English language Wikipedia, but the knowledge described should be as language neutral as possible. --Arny (talk) 12:09, 1 April 2011 (UTC)