Talk:Hungarian people

Finno-Ugric or Turkic

Hungarians speak Finno-Ugric language, Hungarians are 'partly-mostly' a Finno-Ugric population however we can not disregard the Turkic connections. Hungarian and Non-Hungarian academic works are existed about that. Please stop deleting months of work.Fakirbakir (talk) 07:48, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

• We must not forget the three Turkic Kabar tribes
• part of the Academics assume a smaller Turkic or Iranic leader population in the common Finno-Ugric people.
• Researchers presume the Hungarians were a mixed (and mixed-race) population before the Hungarian conquest (Finno-Ugric, Iranic, Turkic etc.
• We must not forget the possibility of language exchange in the past (from the age of Andronovo culture)
• Finno-Ugric, Turkic and Iranic genetic and race characters are very similar to ancient Hungarians.
• theme of Avar and Hungarian relationships (double Hungarian conquest)

---

in addition, who added a sentence certain like this without a refferance;

"Although the name of the modern-day Hungarian people is based on Turkic roots, the Hungarians themselves are actually not related to the Turkic peoples," --78.174.115.93 (talk) 14:20, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

Do we know the MtDNA and Y chromosome polymorphisms of the original Magyars?

If not how can you deny the place of the Magyars in our racial ancestry? 71.212.214.163 (talk) 06:47, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Look for reliable sources and construct a NPOV section, and then collaborate with other editors to build a consensus view on the matter. Or are your plans just to periodically show up to inject criticisms on talk pages of contentious subjects without actually doing anything useful to them, as your contribs seem to suggest? Heiro 07:18, 18 January 2011 (UTC)

Exactly, so provide a reliable source comparing the DNA of modern Hungarians to ancient Hungarians instead of comparing them to modern day Mongolians because you assume ancient Hungarians are Mongolian. 71.212.214.163 (talk) 06:58, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

If you read the article nobody states this. Actually, the page demonstrates that the ancient Hungarians had mostly Europid characters (Turanid, East-baltic). (Pal Liptak)Fakirbakir (talk) 11:29, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

Turanid race

Do we have to deny (decades) works of Hungarian academic anthropologists? Because, according to User:Valosag, Turanid race is obsolete term, It does not exist, and the researchers are racist if somebody of them dare to use it? It is ridiculous. Pal Liptak's works are good quality and he had vast knowledge about migration period, Hungarians. Science and Turanism are different things. Antrophology uses this term without any racist reasoning. Genetic researches are different things again and thosse are just related with Anthropology (not the same discipline).Fakirbakir (talk) 00:47, 4 March 2011 (UTC) Moreover Liptak"s works are important and dominant in connection with early Hungarians, Avars (in the Carpathian Basin).Fakirbakir (talk) 01:54, 4 March 2011 (UTC)

Famous Hungarians

-Non-fact, written by non-entity.

yeah, that's funny - can an admin delete this? I would but it's frowned upon. HammerFilmFan (talk) 23:27, 19 June 2011 (UTC) HammerFilmFan

|I did some editing to meet Wikipedia's quality NPOV standards ;)| CormanoSanchez (talk) 07:50, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

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article is badly in need of cleanup and corrections and citations

The caption for the map of the Magyar raids into western Europe states "Most European nations were praying for mercy..." - this is un-encyclopedic and unsourced and needs to be adjusted.

The term "Vikings" should be changed to Varangians, to be more precise.

Many of the sections have repeated statements and jump around from one topic only to return to it again a paragraph later - probably the result of various editors wishing to stress their own competing references - disjointed, poor grammar. The text should be rewritten so that the various views are laid out in a logical manner, with the mainstream positions being stressed over the minor opinions.

What purpose does the "Eastern Hemisphere 1100 A.D." map have - what value does Africa, Asia and Australia have for this article? HammerFilmFan (talk) 14:17, 20 June 2011 (UTC) HammerFilmFan

Rename "Hungarian people" to "Magyars"?

Magyars are the true ethnic name for ethnic people of Hungary. Hungarians is just the name that foreigners use. Why not use "Magyars" for this article instead of "Hungarian people"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.224.80.206 (talk) 03:58, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Because "Hungarians" is the term more often used in English. Hobartimus (talk) 20:06, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Support - term "Hungarian people" in English can means also a inhabitants of the "Hungarian kingdom" of variouse ethnic origin. "Magyars" is better form for ethnicity. Its same case like Netherlands and Dutchs (Its more hits to Netherlands people as Dutch people in google). Until the late 19th century was the term "Hungarians" used for a Slovaks, Magyars, Ruthenians, Germans and all inhabitants of the Hungarian kingdom. With the rise of Hungarian nationalism started Magyars use this name exclusively for Magyars. Citation: "Hungarian and Magyar were synonymous until the end of of the eighteen century because nobody thought that the mother-tongue should be made the main criterion of nationhood. With the new emphasis placed on language, Magyar developed a more restricted meanig for those who spoke a particular language, while Hungarian maintained the broader meaning of those who lived in the Hungarian kingdom." So from the end of 18th century its different between Hungarians and Magyars. Term "Hungarian" and usage of this term for present day "Magyars" is nationalistic anachronism from 18-19th century. Some Magyar nationalists want to use these words as synonyms because its nationalistic instrument to create the ethnic and political history of Hungarian kingdom and Hungarians connected exclusively with ethnic Magyars. Because of this nationalism the Hungarian kingdom was divided into successor states: (mostly) Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary (btw new created Hungary was called "Magyaria" in official English documents [1]), Yugoslavia. Aim of these attempts are to link continuity of Hungarian kingdom exclusively with Hungary and Magyars. Its process of useing national mythology, nationalistic point of view of their history, deleteing of the different opinions and so on. You will hardly find a so many "historians" in one country like in Hungary. Their besetting insistency will be hard to change. If we deals with exact terms: "Hungarian people" about 83 000 hits [2] about "Magyars" 334 000 hits [3] --Samofi (talk) 10:50, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but it is a silly debate. The term of Hungarian is the widely accepted English word for the Hungarian word Magyar.

• "Hungarians":2 930 000 hits[4]
• "Magyars": 531 000 hits [5]Fakirbakir (talk) 11:14, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Should we change the English word German to Deutsch because this is how they call themselves? .....Fakirbakir (talk) 11:22, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, its not silly debate. These arguments are a little bit retarded. Term "Magyar" is used in the English literatre. (247 000 hits in English language books: [6] - all in connection with ethnicity. But term "Hungarians"? Almost all sources are connected with history before 1918 - so with citizens of Hungarian kingdom, not with present-day Hungary. Its not same country, Hungarian kingdom was multiethnic - more than 1000 sources prove that: [7]) Term "Deutsch" is not used in the English literature as equivalent for Germans. What is this for a argument? Term "Hungarians" before the end of Hungarian Kingdom describe all inhabitants of this kingdom - its multiethnic term. Term "Magyars" has a less hits than "Hungarians" but hits about "Hungarians" talk about Slovaks, Ruthenians, Croats, Romanians, Serbs, Magyars and Germans durring the time of the Hungarian kingdom (natio hungarica). Term "Magyar" is a better expression for a dominant nation of present-day Hungary. --Samofi (talk) 12:07, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Magyar is not a naturalized English word, nobody uses it. Hungarian is the traditional English word for Hungarians/Magyars from the Middle Ages. Nobody wants to call himself Hungarian except Hungarians. It it a silly dispute.Fakirbakir (talk) 12:20, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Slovaks should not use the term "Slovak" before 1920 because they were Hungarians?Fakirbakir (talk) 12:23, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Moreover, the Hungarians (from the word Onogour, means ten tribes "ten arrows" from Turkic) were the leader population during the centuries (especially in the Middle Ages) and the minorities belonged to the Hungarian Kingdom. Later the minorities split from the Hungarians (1920). While the minorities belonged to the Kingdom of Hungary they were parts of the population of the Hungarian Kingdom.Fakirbakir (talk) 12:46, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Another thing Hungary was a successor state for Kingdom of Hungary. It is fact.Fakirbakir (talk) 13:00, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

OMG, its like in the nursery..

1)"Magyar" is naturalized word for a ethnicity of dominant nation in Hungary. Its same case like in Nedherlands: "Dutch" vs. "Netherlander" or "Hollander" (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Netherlander). Or in the connection of "Bohemia" and "Bohemians" vs. "Czechs". "Bohemians" were inhabitants of the "Bohemia"(Czechy) and "Czechs" were "ethnic Czechs". Last European nation which use historical anachronism like a present name are Magyars. Even in France is make a difference "France" vs. "Frankish Empire" - "Franks" - "French people". But you dream about 1000 years old polity of Hungarians which were in the fact multiethnic in the all existence of the kingdom.

2)Yes, term "Hungarian" or "natio Hungarica" was also name for a ethnic Slovaks in the time of the Kingdom of Hungary and not only Slovaks, but also Magyars, Germans and Croats - its political name connected with Hungarian kingdom and no ethnic name

3)Its planty of theories about the origin of the name of the Hungarians (this is only one of them). Next theory is about derivation from the Huns, but present day Magyars has nothing to do with the Huns. Your source says that mimorities (btw Magyars were minority all the time in the Regnum Marianum (Hungaria) and in the Royal Hungary it were Slovaks the most numerouse ethnicity - but all inhabitants of Royal Hungary were Hungarians, because of their citizenship). But I try to analyze your citation. In the fact it support all what I have written above. I will parafraze your citation: Hungarians were dominant nation (magyars) and minorities (slovaks, ruthenians, croats, germans, romanians) in the kingdom. - it support my opinion. So its incorrect make a connection of Hungarians wich were used for a 1000 years for a Magyars, Slovaks, Romanians, Croats etc. exclusivelly for present-day "Magyars". --Samofi (talk) 13:30, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

It was a more successor states, its 1000 sources about it. Only Magyars wants to make Hungary only successor state. [8] read official documents. Successor states anexed a territory of the former Hungarian kingdom. In 1918 it was a Aster revolution in Hungarian kingdom and it was created a "Magyar Republic". For example Treaty of Trianon, there is written which states are successors (CS, HU, YU, RO). Dont you agree with treaty of trianon? --Samofi (talk) 13:42, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

You forget only one fact. The Hungarians were in majority (around 75-80%) in the medieval kingdom. We can talk about real "multi-ethnic" kingdom after the Turkish Wars in essence (war losses, resettlements by Habsburgs, refugees). The latin term Natio Hungarica was for the Hungarian nobility, it does not really have to deal with peoples in the late Middle Ages.. In the Middle Ages the minorities did not want to establish own entities in the kingdom because of their low numbers. They adapted to the majority and thought that they are part of the Hungarian people. This "adaptation" did not work after the Turkish Wars because of the changed ethnic ratios. The changed demographic positions led to Treaty of Trianon. The leading people were the "Hungarians" and they called themselves "Magyars". "Hungarian" means "Magyar". The western states fabricated their name (Ungarisch, Hongrie, Hongar, Ungherese, Onggarese, Wegier etc. ) because of the events of the 9-10th centuries. We maybe able to use this term for Slovaks, Rusyns etc because of the Hungarian state, but nothing else.Fakirbakir (talk) 14:27, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Do you have a sources about this? It seems like a your personal point of view. Majority of sources about history of the kingdom make a difference between Hungarians and Magyars. Hungarian is term for a citizens and Magyar is term for a ethnicity.--Samofi (talk) 19:06, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

I oppose this suggestion, and the soapboxing of the previously indefinitely blocked user:Samofi. Wikipedia is not a personal soapbox, not even the talk pages, moreover this is not the talkpage of the "Treaty of Trianon", so soapboxing about that will not achieve anything on this talkpage. This is the talk page for "Hungarian people" take other topics to their relevant talk pages. Hobartimus (talk) 18:07, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

It is also not a discussion forum or Q&A where posts like this belong. [9]. Hobartimus (talk) 18:09, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

You write all the time same, that I was blocked. Its tired and pathetic.. It seems like a wikihounding. I changed I discuss things at talk pages before I edit it. Its about usage of therm "Hungarian people" vs "Magyars". Its not a soapbox (like you said) so user:samofi who was a blocked because he was edit warring doesnt belong to discussion at talk page of Hungarian people. You can use your talkpage. Its discussion about move of the page. So stop with personal attacks to user:samofi. If you have a problem use ANI. If you have no arguments in this topic, your oppose is irrelevant. Or do you oppose because user:samofi was formerly blocked? --Samofi (talk) 19:06, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

My opinion is that some of the posts were disruptive soapboxing. An indefinite block is simply evidence that "disruption" was confirmed by admins in the past as well. Further my opinion is that you instead of discussing the topic of the article, you talked about your own personal opinions on other topics, such as successor states. It is already clear that "Hungarians" is much more used term and "Magyars" fell out of wide use in the English language (a language that you admit, you don't understand well). So it would seem that you don't want to debate this, but rather your opinions about other things at great length. But why isn't the successor states, or the Treaty of Trianon article's talk page suitable if you want to discuss about that? Hobartimus (talk) 19:28, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Term Hungarian is used more because it covers also a citizens of Hungarian kingdom. Term "Magyar" is the term for ethnicity. See page Hungarian nationalism. --Samofi (talk) 19:37, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Btw User:Fakirbakir started with successor states [10], its good manner to answer to my friend. But discussion about user:samofi as user:hobartimus started([11] - "I oppose this suggestion, and the soapboxing previously indefinitely blocked user:Samofi") doesnt belongs here and its topic for ANI.

NOTE: User:Hobartimus opposes because of user:samofi was formerly blocked, he has no relevant arguments about this topic. It can be considered as personal attack instead of arguments: "Comment on content, not on the contributor." "What is considered to be a personal attack?" "Linking to external attacks, harassment, or other material, for the purpose of attacking another editor". Former block of user:samofi is external case in the relation with this discussion and linking this former block with discussion about Hungarian people can be considered as personal attack. --Samofi (talk) 19:32, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

You should not state untrue things. Read your first comment please: "Because of this nationalism the Hungarian kingdom was divided into successor states: (mostly) Czechoslovakia, Romania, Hungary (btw new created Hungary was called "Magyaria" in official English documents [1]), Yugoslavia. "Fakirbakir (talk) 19:35, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Can you cite all context next time, pls? My edit has a 13 lines and it was a one from arguments. You told that only Hungary was successor state - it was your argument and all your edit in the line: "Another thing Hungary was a successor state for Kingdom of Hungary. It is fact. Fakirbakir (talk) 13:00, 18 October 2011 (UTC)". If it was problem for you, you could warned me about this (about soapboxing) and not take a 3% from my edit and started discussion about it. --Samofi (talk) 19:46, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

I oppose for many reasons only some of which I outlined above, like a lot more use in English for the term "Hungarians". Since this text is written for English speakers it helps if we use terms they are already familiar with and widely use. Hobartimus (talk) 19:55, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

I understand you. But English readers can be also confused that term "Hungarians" in the time of kingdom means not only "Magyars" but also Slovaks, Ruthenians, Croats, Jews and Germans.. Maybe good idea would be to create a disambiguation page for Hungarians in 1001-1918 and after 1918. I think it can make a "better air" here between the Magyar editors and Romanian, Croatian, Serbian and Slovak editors. Because its often cited in historical or English language sources - and its vague if its speaking about "Hungarian people" like "ethnic Magyars" or "Hungarian people" like "inhabitants of the former Kingdom which can be a ethnic slovaks, magyars, serbians, romanians or croats".--Samofi (talk) 20:32, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

About successor states, please comment here:[12]Fakirbakir (talk) 20:18, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for a notice I appreciate it. --Samofi (talk) 20:21, 18 October 2011 (UTC)

• I also oppose the change, based on the arguments presented by users Hobartimus and Fakirbakir. Namely, the widely accepted English translation of the Hungarian word "magyar" is "Hungarian". Take a look at the article about Béla Bugár. It states that he is a Slovak politician, because he is a citizen of Slovakia and he is active in Slovakia. I have no problem with that (as long as it is also stated that he is of Hungarian ethnicity), but it seems that there is no distinction between citizens of Slovakia and Slovaks. Then, does user Samofi also suggest that in case a person is ethnic Slovak, we should call him/her Slovenských instead of Slovak, to make this distinction? Koertefa (talk) 01:39, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

NOTE Its manipulation.

• Magyars is English translation of Magyarok. [13] - "Magyar: A member of the principal ethnic group of Hungary."
• Hungarians - its just a political concept and citizenship. [14] - "Hungarian: a native, inhabitant, or citizen of Hungary" But its no relation to Hungarian people(Magyars), its term with relation to Hungary and Hungarian kingdom.
• Its same in the case of Netherlands, Netherlander is the citizen. So Netherlander is Dutch, Saxon, Frisian.. And dominant ethnic group are Dutch people. Hungarian is citizen of Hungary. So Hungarians are dominant ethnic groups of Magyars + autochtonous minorities in Hungary - Slovaks, Croats, Slovenes, Germans, Jews, Romanians, Serbs and Gypsies whose are citizens of Hungary. Magyars are Magyars and Hungarians are Hungarians. Its not synonymous.
• In the case of Bela Bugar its linked "Slovak politician" with "Politics of Slovakia". Its no connection to Slovak people. --Samofi (talk) 19:41, 19 October 2011 (UTC)
  • Hungarian is more often used in English. There are 196 countries in the world and even more ethnicities... Slovaks are dominant ethnic groups of Slovaks + autochtonous minorities in Slovakia- Hungarians, Croats, Slovenes, Germans, Jews, Romanians, Serbs and Gypsies whose are citizens of Slovakia.--B@xter⁹ 20:21, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

Of course its use more often because it has 2 meanings. Before 1918 it was a citizenship - its correct. And after 1918 its sometimes used as citizenship and ethnic term. But term "Magyars" is use much more often used in the connection with dominant ethnic group in Hungary ([15] - Magyar - a member of the ethnic group, of the Finno-Ugric stock, that forms the predominant element of the population of Hungary). We need to disambiguation terms "Hungarian people" and "Hungarians" (for example like the term "American" is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American). Present article about "Hungarian people" is written about "ethnic Magyars" not about citizens of Hungary (its also Slovaks, Magyars, Jews, Germans). Its nationalism to connect political term which was used 1000 years with connection to people with variouse ethnic origin exclusively to Magyars as synonym. Its not synonym, you can read each English terminological dictionary. Ideas above are Ethnic nationalism - its danger for Wikipedia. --Samofi (talk) 07:48, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

It is not ethnic nationalism. The Hungarian word is the traditional English (and German, French, Polish etc) word for the Magyars from the Early Middle Ages (Ungari, Ungri, Hungri, Hungari, Ungarus, Hungarius, Onger, Wanger) Initially it was meant for only the Magyar ethnic group.[16]Fakirbakir (talk) 13:24, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

As I corrected in the section of etymology, It is quite possible the Hungarians became the dominant ethnic group in the Onogur alliance and this is the point when the name of Hungarians means only Magyars.Fakirbakir (talk) 23:16, 20 October 2011 (UTC)

Population

The article says that around 1000 "the Hungarian nation numbered between 25,000 and 1,000,000 people." Is it not possible to offer a narrower range of estimates? I realize numbers are sketchy for the early Middle Ages, but still this is a huge discrepancy. It's like estimating a crowd at "between 25 and 1,000."

Dealing with the 18th century, the article says, "Droves of Romanians entered Transylvania during the same period." Droves seems vaguely pejorative and POV.

Sca (talk) 22:34, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

Hungarian Nation

The reference to "nation" in the introduction must have been related to the attempt to recognize that the word "Hungarian" did not refer specifically to the Magyar ethnic group. It could mean a German who was a citizen of Hungary (The Kingdom of Hungary is historically multi-ethnic). There has been past discussion on this which can probably be found in the Talk archives. Some have advocated to name this article "Magyar" in order to remain specific and sensitive to this while others have advocated for "Hungarian". Obviously, the article's subject is the ethnic group, not the nation. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 22:42, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Talk:Hungarian people/Archive 1 has several discussions related to this. The past consensus was that the article is not about the nation, but the Magyar ethnic group (Hungarian in English) and the top of the article was tagged to direct people to the article on demographics in Hungary[17]. Please leave mention of "nation" out of the article per past consensus. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 23:26, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I did not find that "past consensus", please, bring forward the main arguments which support that Hungarians are not a nation. Take a look at, for example, the nation article of Wikipedia: it starts with: "A nation may refer to a community of people who share a common language, culture, ethnicity, descent, and/or history". It perfectly fits to Hungarians. The article about the Romanians also state that: "The Romanian people are a nation in the meaning of ethnos (Romanian: etnie), defined by the sense of sharing a common Romanian culture, descent, and having Romanian as mother tongue, not by citizenship or by being subjects to any particular country.". Or look at the article of the Encyclopedia Britannica [18]: "A nation is a unified territorial state with a political system that governs the whole society. A nation may be very large with several political subdivisions—such as the United States, China, Canada, or Australia—or it may be a small unit like the city-state of Singapore. A nation need not consist of a single, continuous geographical unit.". Or the site dictionary.com defines "nation" as "A large body of people, associated with a particular territory, that is sufficiently conscious of its unity to seek or to possess a government peculiarly its own". Hungarians are obviously a nation accord each of these approaches. Q.E.D. Koertefa (talk) 01:25, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The point is absolutely not to say that Hungarians (Magyars) are not a nation and I apologize if that is how it seems, but to narrow the historic wider meaning which originates from the term natio hungarica. As I wrote above, I concluded that the reference to "nation" must have been related to this wider meaning. With closer examination of the version of the article I linked to, it can be seen that there's some sentences about this wider meaning that have since been moved from the introduction to the section on History[19]. Now I took some time to find the edit where "nation" was added into the introduction (not easy!) [20]. There's no edit comment so it is difficult to understand what the editor's thinking was behind making those changes. It is also unhelpful that the edit was made from an IP address. That editor may not have been referring to the wider meaning of the word Hungarian. We cannot know. For background, please see the discussions at Talk:Hungarian_people/Archive_1#An_idea, Talk:Hungarian_people/Archive_1#Requested_move, and Talk:Hungarian_people/Archive_1#Discussion_2. You can see concern in those discussions about the word Hungarian referring historically to the nation (as in citizens of Hungary) where today the word in English typically refers to the ethnic group. You can see the recognition that the article is about the ethnic group and not citizens of Hungary or natio hungarica. And you can find the attempt to clarify the ambiguity by adding the link to Demographics of Hungary at the top. This is not a unique problem on Wikipedia because you can find similar discussions, like Kazakh or Kazakhstani. It just happens that the word "Hungarian" can carry both meanings and historically has referred to natio hungarica. To me, adding in "nation" reintroduces the ambiguity that editors in the past have tried to clarify. Perhaps you have some idea on how to maintain clarity when using the word "nation". --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 03:35, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your detailed reply and for linking past discussions about the topic. I understand that it needs to be clarified which people the article is about. The concept of "nation" is vague, there are several possible definitions. However, according to each of these definitions Hungarians are a nation. Consequently, I think the word "nation" should not be left out. On the other hand, I also see that some editors fear that it may lead to misunderstandings. A solution could be to include a particular definition of nation that we have in mind as, for example, it is done in the article about the Romanians. I agree that this article is not about everybody who lives/lived in Hungary, it would be too wide, but I also think that restricting the meaning to ethnic Hungarians would be a mistake. For example, how can we decide who is ethnic Hungarian? Is having a Hungarian grandfather enough to classify somebody as ethnic Hungarian? In my opinion, this article should focus on the Hungarian nation, namely, on people who share the Hungarian culture, know the Hungarian language (at some level), share the Hungarian history, and/or have some Hungarian descent. For example, for me Sándor Petőfi perfectly fits into this article, even though his father had Serbian ancestry and his mother was Slovak. He, however, felt himself Hungarian, spoke Hungarian, wrote his poems in Hungarian, identified himself with the Hungarian culture and history, and (with high probability) even died for the cause of Hungarians. So in that sense his ancestry does not really matter, but of course, I am not against mentioning Petőfi in the articles about Serbians or Slovaks, based on his roots. Therefore, I think that the article should not only be about ethnic Hungarians, but also about the Hungarian nation, but we should clearly define what do we mean by "nation". Concepts like "natio hungarica" should be discussed in the History (or the Etymology) section of the article. What do you think? Koertefa (talk) 03:02, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I think there is a misunderstanding. Please be careful with the word "Hungarian". The Hungarian nation derives from the Árpáds because they were those who established the Hungarian state. We have to distinguish between Hungarian ethnic group and the Hungarian nobility (the Hungarus nation), but we also have to distinguish between Hungarian ethnic group (Magyars) in the past and the minorities of the kingdom. Hungarian ethnic group (Hungarian people) does not have wider meaning, we can not call the Slovaks Hungarians in the past, however Hungarian political nation included Slovak, Rusyn members as well. The most important thing, the the Hungarian nobility (political nation) was not equal with Hungarian people (Hungarian ethnic group) but the Hungarian nation (political nation) became synonyme with Hungarian people (Hungarian ethnic group) from the age of Enlightenment. We also have to distinguish between medieval Kingdom of Hungary and Kingdom of Hungary in the Modern period. The Hungarians (possibly from the word Onogour, "ten arrows" from Turkic) were the leader population in the Middle Ages, they were in majority (around 75-80% or more) in the medieval kingdom. There is a theory what states that: "The Hungarians must have belonged to the Onogur tribal alliance (before 895) and it is quite possible they became its ethnic majority". Nobody wanted to call himself "Hungarian" except the Magyars in this time (9-15th centuries). The "multi-ethnic" kingdom is a latter process, it developed after the Turkish Wars in essence (war losses, resettlements by Habsburgs, refugees etc..). The latin term Natio Hungarica (from the 15th century) was for the Hungarian nobility and clerics, it does not really have to deal with peoples, especially in the late Middle Ages. In the Middle Ages the minorities did not want to establish own entities in the kingdom because of their low numbers (possibly). They possibly adapted to the majority and thought that they are part of the Hungarian (Magyar) people. BUT this does not mean that Hungarian word is a wider expression or it does not mean that Slovak or German peoples belonged to the Hungarian people. If we followed this idea we would have to change the meaning of English people, or the meaning of Dutch people etc... This "adaptation process" did not work after the Turkish Wars because of the changed ethnic ratios. The changed demographic positions led to Treaty of Trianon. The leading people were the "Hungarians" and they called themselves "Magyars". The western states fabricated their name (Ungarisch, Hongrie, Hongar, Ungherese, Onggarese, Wegier etc. ) because of the events of the 9-10th centuries. Slovak or Rusyn nobles were part of the Hungarian (Hungarus) nobility but the Slovak or Serb or Romanian peoples never thought to be part of the Hungarian people (Slovak people is especially difficult case because they did not have mother country and they shared the territory with the Hungarians, however they never stated they are ethnic Hungarians. Every nation has a development process, every nation mixed with other peoples, Slovaks mixed with Hungarians, Hungarians mixed with Slovaks for instance...... Slovaks were Hungarian citizens but they were never part of the Hungarian people or Hungarians live in Slovakia nowadays they are Slovak citizens but they were never part of the Slovak people) Fakirbakir (talk) 10:37, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Fakirbakir, you bring up all good points that repeat what others have already written. Please take the time to read the past discussion. Some said there is no ambiguity in English, that "Hungarian" means specifically ethnic Hungarians and a Slovak citizen of Hungary would not say they are Hungarian. But some others have also expressed confusion, saying that naming the article "Hungarians" would reference citizens of Hungary and not ethnic Hungarians. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 20:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Koertefa, I agree we should move the information about "natio hungarica" and related information to the Name section. It seems buried in the History section since it was moved from the introduction. I think we should expand on your other idea. The current article rather strictly deals with the Magyar as an ethnic group and seems to purposely avoid historic people like Sándor Petőfi. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 20:18, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

We can mention the "natio hungarica" concept in the Name section, but for me it is also good in the History section, since that historical idea does not have any significance any more. I do not think that the word "Hungarian" is often used for people who simply lived in the Kingdom of Hungary, even though they did not consider themselves Hungarians. For example, I doubt that Ján Kollár was ever called Hungarian, even though he was born and lived most of his life in the Kingdom of Hungary. In that question I agree with Fakirbakir, since I don't have an example in mind where a non-Hungarian was called Hungarian just because s/he lived in Hungary, but perhaps somebody else does? Regarding the "nation": as the first definition, I would use a similar one that is in the article about the Romanians. For example, we could write: "Hungarian people are a nation in the sense of sharing a common Hungarian language, culture, history and/or descent, and not by citizenship.". Is is very similar to what is written in the nation article of Wikipedia. BTW: I have just checked the ethnic group article, and it states that: "An ethnic group (or ethnicity) is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and/or an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy". This definition is quite surprising, since it is almost the same as the definition of a nation. However, even if the "ethnic group" article currently defines the concept very similarly to nation, I still think that the word "nation" should also be explicitly stated, since other definitions of "ethnic group" indicate strong genetic/anthropological connections. Therefore, in order to avoid confusion, we should include and express the "nation" concept explicitly. Koertefa (talk) 07:02, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

It's changing semantics. "Ethnic group" has taken over a more traditional meaning of the word "nation" and "nation" has come to have more of a citizenship connotation. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 20:26, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

It's a good observation. There is a shift in the meaning of "ethnic group", at least there are different interpretations of it and according to one of the newer ones it means something similar to the original meaning of "nation". Nevertheless, I think that this interpretation is not yet universally accepted. For example, even though I highly respect Australian Aborigines, I would not call them a "nation", but they are certainly an "ethnic group" (or several ethnic groups) with unique language(s), culture and history. For me, they are (important) part of the Australian nation. We can also take a look at the definition of "ethnic group" in the Ecyclopedia Britannica [21]. It is not exactly the same as the classical concept of "nation". Since there are several parallel approaches to these concepts, I think that we should include both. Koertefa (talk) 06:53, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

An addition: the articles about the English people, Scottish people, French people, Norwegian people, Portuguese people, Greek people and Austrian people, etc., all mention that they are nations, as well. Koertefa (talk) 08:51, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Fenno-Ugric ethnic group native to

For reference: Hungarians, also known as Magyars (Hungarian: magyarok), are a Fenno-Ugric ethnic group native to and primarily associated with Hungary.

Why I keep removing this from the introduction:

1. The term "Finno-Ugric" is a construct from linguistics meant to convey language relatedness.
2. An ethnic group is a term from the study of ethnography. Common language, etc., in an ethnic group is important to group formation. Ethnography may have it's own classifications that are separate from the linguistic terms.
3. A language grouping term from linguistics can never adequately represent ethnographic schemes.

I'm fully aware that there is use of the term "Finno-Ugric peoples" by various organizations who seek to promote the creation and sharing of more cultural bonds based on a linguistic language family and I take no issue with that, but it really has no place in an encyclopedic introduction (it is already linked to in the History section). "Finno-Ugric peoples" is a populist term and not scientific. Using such unscientific terms in the introduction would make it equally valid for someone else to come along and want "Ural-Altaic ethnic group", "Turanic ethnic group", "Hunno-Magyar ethnic group", "Germano-Slavic ethnic group", etc., etc.

Moreover, I remove "native to" because it contradicts the article, which gives a history of Hungarians coming from Siberia.

Alternative: Hungarians, also known as Magyars (Hungarian: magyarok), are an ethnic group primarily associated with Hungary and speak a Finno-Ugric languages. --Stacey Doljack Borsody (talk) 20:23, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree with your points, but I do not agree with leaving out the "native to" part. It is likely that the ancestors of Hungarians arrived from Central Asia (and not from Siberia, but it is another question), but more than 1000 years of history binds them to the Carpathian Basin. So they are native to this region. "Native to" does not necessarily mean that they always lived in this place as, e.g., the Greeks also immigrated to the area of modern-Greece, still their article states that they are native to Greece and Cyprus, etc. The ancestors of English people also only moved to the island, still their article states that they are native to England. By also taking the above discussion into account, I propose the following:

Hungarians, also known as Magyars (Hungarian: magyarok), are a nation and an ethnic group native to the Carpathian Basin and primarily associated with Hungary. Hungarians are a nation in the sense of sharing a common Hungarian language, cultural heritage, history and descent, and not by citizenship. Hungarian is a Finno-Ugric language and it is the largest non-Indo-European language in Europe.

Bye, Koertefa (talk) 07:09, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I don`t think that there is any change needed here. Of course Hungarian are native to the are of Carpatian Basin, they live here for more than 1000 years (did`t arrived here yesterday). The native word should not be removed. Also for the Fino-ugric formulation. I believe that this formulation (as it was) is short, informative and right to the point. Adrian (talk) 09:30, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment. The problem with calling Hungarians a "Fenno-Ugric ethnic group" is, as Stacey pointed out, that linguistics and ethnography are not the same, the language of a group does not define its ethnographic schemes. Koertefa (talk) 11:19, 2 February 2012 (UTC)