Talk:Maltese language

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Maghrebi Arabic

I sorted out the classification in the infobox. Maltese was listed under Arabic language, which would have implied it to be a dialect, when really, it comes under Arabic languages (a language family). I am hoping no one is disputing the factuality of this?

I also removed the Maghrebi Arabic label, since:

1. Maghrebi Arabic is a variety or the Arabic language - which Maltese is not. Maltese is an Arabic language, not an Arabic one (which would have rendered it a dialect if it was).
2. No reliable linguists classify it under Maghrebi.
3. I was the one who added it to the article in the first place: [1] - incorrectly.

mɪn'dʒi:klə (talk) 19:00, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, I'm disputing it, as I explained just now at Arabic languages. You're mixing up two different things: status as a language vs. lineage. The 'family' part of the infobox covers lineage. By lineage, Maltese is a descent of Siculo-Arabic, which was a dialect of Maghrebi Arabic, which was a variety of the Arabic macrolanguage, which is one of two branches of the Arabic languages. Your edits make the contrary claim that Maltese is a third branch of the Arabic languages, which is incorrect.

Yes, of course Maltese is a separate language from Arabic. I don't think anyone disputes that. It is mutually unintelligible, ethnically distinct, and neither the Maltese nor the Arabs (AFAIK) claim Maltese as a dialect of Arabic. However, this has nothing to do with its lineage, which clearly is Arabic.

I'm not wedded to "Maghrebi" particularly, but I think we do need to show that Maltese is a descendant of Arabic, and not a sister language. kwami (talk) 19:06, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Let me put this in perspective for you. English came from Norse. However, when it developed into a separate language, it stopped being classified as Norse, and became a "Germanic language".

The same with Maltese. It's ancestor came from Arabic, but when Maltese became its own language and lost mutual intelligibility, it then came to be classified as an Arabic language - not an Arabic dialect.

There are also no sources to back up that it is Maghrebi either. mɪn'dʒi:klə (talk) 19:13, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

English does not come from Norse. Norse influenced its lexicon and grammar, playing a role more like Sicilian than Arabic in the case of Maltese.

The sources are at Siculo-Arabic. kwami (talk) 19:20, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

If they're there I'm sure you won't mind quoting them? mɪn'dʒi:klə (talk) 19:28, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

[2] ("It is descended from Maghrebi Arabic but has borrowed heavily from Italian"). [3] ("the oldest layer of Maltese has been closely related to the pre-Hilalian type of urban Maghrebi"). Singer, Hans-Rudolf (1980) “Das Westarabische oder Maghribinische” in Wolfdietrich Fischer and Otto Jastrow (eds.) Handbuch der arabischen Dialekte. Martine Haak, Rudolf Erik de Jong, C. H. M. Versteegh (2004) Approaches to Arabic Dialects. Norman A. Stillman (1988) The Language and Culture of the Jews of Sefrou, Morocco. However, there are others who restrict the term "Maghrebi" to the varieties of Arabic which remained in North Africa, so it's to some extent a matter of definition. kwami (talk) 19:49, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

We have been through this a thousand times before. Maltese is genetically descended from ARABIC, not from the putative ancestor of an "Arabic language family". This whole attempt to separate Maltese from its Arabic roots is utterly unjustified and ridiculous. Show your sources that Maltese is somehow a sister language to Arabic and the entry at "Arabic languages" would be justified. Otherwise, Maltese should fall under Varieties of Arabic (as it does). (Taivo (talk) 19:46, 14 January 2009 (UTC))

Excuse me? How have I tried to imply Maltese is not Arabic? I am the one arguing that it is an Arabic language. Read the conversation next time. mɪn'dʒi:klə (talk) 19:58, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

I did read the conversation and you are trying to remove Maltese from "Arabic" and place it as a sister of Arabic in a family called "Arabic languages" which includes Ancient North Arabic. That implies that Maltese is a sister to Arabic and Ancient North Arabic, not a descendant of Arabic and a "nephew" of Ancient North Arabic. Kwami is 100% correct in his corrections to your assertions. We have been over this time and time again. (Taivo (talk) 20:05, 14 January 2009 (UTC))

No, that is like saying that French is now seen as a sister to Latin because it is classed as a "Romance language". mɪn'dʒi:klə (talk) 20:10, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Latin is not a Romance language, so classifying French as Romance does not make it a sister to Latin. You really need to read some of this stuff before you use it to argue your point. kwami (talk) 20:15, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

First of all, I agree with Taivo and Kwami. Maltese has Maghrebi origines. Kwami has already added several sources about it, I could add more. Second, the comparison with French and Latin is wrong. If both French and Latin would both be classed as Romance languages Mingeyqla would be right, but they are not. Latin is an Italic language, not a Romance language. In fact, Mingeyqla's example shows the opposite. For French, we've got Latin -> Romance -> French and for Maltese we've got Arabic -> Maghrebi Arabic -> Maltese. Rather simplified, but the fact remains that French is Romance and Latin is not. And Maltese is Maghrebi.JdeJ (talk) 20:18, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Oy. And here was I, thinking 2009 would bring some peace. Dancing around the Arabic issue (as distasteful as it is to some editors) doesn't do anything for the article's integrity. Though saying 'Maltese is Maghrebi' is rather silly.. Maltese is Maltese ^^ the roof of this court is too high to be yours (talk) 21:13, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Neither Kwami nor I are tied to the Maghrebi connection. Personally, I think that the distinction between Maghrebi and Masriqi is probably a bit more recent than the separation of Siculo-Arabic from Arabic, but I'm not a specialist in that body of data. (Taivo (talk) 21:31, 14 January 2009 (UTC))

I've just read this article and also the maltese version of it. For me it's clear that Maltese is a Maghrebi Arabic although I am not an expert. I am Moroccan and it was easy for me to undersatnd nearly 70% of a text written in maltese (after reading the alphabet of course). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.140.41.236 (talk) 21:01, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

Maltese has more in common with Lebanese varieties if anything. Maybe you're Lebanese and don't even know it. Lol? LoL. Ελληνικά όρος ή φράση (talk) 00:57, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

No it has not, if anything, the Arabic variety most closely related to Maltese is Tunisian Arabic. Just look at verb conjugation in Tunisian Arabic. I know it is not enough of a proof, but it should be enough to set the facts straight since the most distinctive thing about the varieties of Arabic is the verb conjugation of each variety. 192.108.115.2 (talk) 02:34, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

I have no special knowledge on this subject, but I am wondering whether there is an agenda behind distancing Maltese from Arabic. Just from 'general knowledge' (coming from the UK) I was under the impression that Maltese was a variety of Arabic, albeit influenced by Italian (i.e. Sicilian). I've noticed that in a number of articles Maltese is curiously labelled as "Semitic" and the "A" word is studiously avoided. Then I read this thread....What's the scoop? I'm just curious more than anything. DeCausa (talk) 22:57, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Pronunciation of the Letter Z

In the alphabet table, the Approximate English pronunciation of the letter Z is given as: "pizza; when doubled may change to lots."

Everyone I know here in the US pronounces the zz in pizza exactly like the ts in lots. Maybe someone who knows Maltese and English can come up with a better example for English speakers of how the pronunciation of zz differs from z in Maltese.--Jim10701 (talk) 23:41, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

I usually hear "pizza" with /ts/ as well. This page gives "pads" as an English example of something approximating [d͡z].

Also, if Maltese r is trilled this should be mentioned in the pronunciation guide, and "law" for [o] may only work for certain varieties of English (e.g. Received Pronunciation). Lfh (talk) 17:51, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Spoken in?

A common issue in many articles but I wonder about the "Spoken in" list at the top. Certainly I have no trouble believing that there are significant groups of speakers in all of these countries but, IMHO, it is misleading to include so many nations where the language has no real status, even unofficially. I believe that such lists should be restricted to locations where the language has a very large community that uses it as a first language (very large meaning something more than a couple of small neighborhoods buried in major cities). For example, one can say that German is a language of Switzerland and Italy, but calling it a language of these United States, for example, would be misleading despite the fact that there are many German speakers in the U.S. and in the early 20th century there actually were large German-speaking communities.

--Mcorazao (talk) 20:55, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with your concern. Unfortunately, the primary source for "spoken in" data is often Ethnologue or national census data. Nearly every language in the world with more than 10000 speakers could list the United States, for example. It is, I agree, quite silly to see fifty flags (not even just a list of names, but the darn national flags as well) flying next to a language of only 100,000 speakers who have relatives throughout the world. But try to trim those needless flags away or trim that list of countries and watch the nationalistic fervor burn bright! (Taivo (talk) 21:00, 5 February 2010 (UTC))

Is it necessarily a "nationalistic" perspective that colours such reactions? I'd be interested to see that claim substantiated, because for all the problems nationalism causes on Wiki, it seems the main fuel behind much maintenance over loads of projects/articles. An interesting tightrope to walk, and a situation not particularly helped by being smug. Ελληνικά όρος ή φράση (talk) 13:47, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Experience in other articles is a hard teacher. Nationalistic insistence in these language templates in my experience generally involves 1) exaggerated population figures (that usually include either the entire ethnic population or all the potential L2 speakers in the world); 2) the pretty flags (just because they're pretty); and 3) the presence or (even) absence of a language in a given country (no matter how small the immigrant community is). I've been involved recently with an Armenian national who insists that there are no Azerbaijani speakers in Armenia even though there reliable references to the contrary. Nationalism definitely has a valid place in the world, but it's not always helpful or accurate. Would you be willing to remove the US and Canadian flags here because that's not the "native home" of Maltese? (Taivo (talk) 14:33, 6 February 2010 (UTC))

The listings just represent other countries where Maltese people speak Maltese, and are documented as doing so. Canadian initiatives (working with the EU to promote Maltese amongst Maltese communities) are attested to. I don't see why you're hostile to that being represented. Or do you just object to "pretty flags", and if so, are you anti-pretty, contra-flags, or both? Ελληνικά όρος ή φράση (talk) 15:57, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

You misunderstand this discussion, I fear. Mcorazao made the comment that (s)he thinks that the language template should list only countries where the language is "native", that is, the homeland for the language. I happen to agree with that. No one said that there aren't documented Maltese speakers in the US and Canada. No argument there. The point is simply about the function of and philosophy behind the list of countries in the language template. Yes, I think that the use of flags in the list of countries is silly. I guarantee that the majority of people will recognize the word "Chad" in a list of names ages before they would recognize its flag in a parade of flags. Why are they in the language template? Because they are "pretty" and people like pretty colors in things. (Taivo (talk) 16:28, 6 February 2010 (UTC))

Meh. Is there any use cluttering this talkpage with what you'd 'rather' the standards be? Surely there's a better venue for such suggestions, somewhere where your proposed changes might actually be approved and implemented. As things are, nothing here will change. And as one of the people who quite likes a little colour in life, I reject the implication that such an appreciation (through national flags!) is silly. A little more civility is in order. Ελληνικά όρος ή φράση (talk) 16:36, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I don't think anything could change even if a discussion were started and approved. And I was being civil. Being uncivil would call people who use flags "stupid". I don't think they're stupid at all. The "practice" (not the people) is silly because it really serves no purpose in an encyclopedia. I was definitely not calling you silly. Some reasonably intelligent people like color in needless places, some people think it's silly. If you want to delete this whole thread from this Talk page, that's fine by me because you're right, it's not directly germane to the article's topic. (Taivo (talk) 18:16, 6 February 2010 (UTC))

Maltese vowel "o" - International Phonetic Alphabet

Maltese letter: o

• long, like aw in law: sod (IPA: ɔ) - sod means "solid" (it comes from Italian sodo: IPA: 'sɔdo)
• short, like o in got: bott (IPA: ɒ) - bott means "box" (it comes from French boîte or from Sicilian buatta)

Source: http://www.aboutmalta.com/language/maltesegrammar.htm

Other sources:

• Pronunciation of "law": http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/law (IPA: lɔ)
• Pronunciation of "got": http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/got (IPA: gɒt)
• Pronunciation of "got" (especially in formal contexts, in Brittish English anyway) (IPA: gɔt)

Best regards

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Sarvaturi (talk • contribs) 11:56, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 86.26.187.254, 28 November 2010

{{edit semi-protected}} please change QALP to QALB please change KELP to KELB

86.26.187.254 (talk) 22:57, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Spain Can you please explain the reason for this change? Those appear to the be standard modern Arabic spellings, not the Maltese spelling. If, however, that info is out of date or incorrect, please explain. Qwyrxian (talk) 04:34, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Żammit

The article includes both Żammit, with its Malto-Polish zed, and Zammit. Varlaam (talk) 16:47, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

What was spoken on Malta before?

I couldn't find info on this in the article, but it would sure be interesting to see. FunkMonk (talk) 03:10, 9 February 2012 (UTC)