Talk:Mary (mother of Jesus)

Mary's children

Coogan, Michael (October 2010). God and Sex. What the Bible Really Says (1st ed.). New York, Boston: Twelve. Hachette Book Group. ISBN 978-0-446-54525-9. http://books.google.nl/books?id=2_gPKQEACAAJ&dq=god+and+sex&hl=nl&ei=4fbCTaPKDpGXOrq88Z0I&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CEcQ6AEwAQ. Retrieved May 5, 2011.  affirms the following: Saint Paul thought that Saint Joseph has fathered Jesus (Coogan, 2010:38), "Joseph 'did not know' Mary 'until she has given birth to a son'" (she did not remain virgin, according to Saint Matthew, Coogan 2010:39).

Jesus' brothers and sisters are mentioned in the New Testament, i.e. Jude, brother of Jesus, Simon (brother of Jesus), Joses, James the Just and some sisters (not named and not counted). See Desposyni for details. The New Testament does not name their parents but neither does it mention another wife of Saint Joseph. Translations which used the words "half-brothers" are inaccurate, since the New Testament does not use such words. The issue is hotly debated, I have to admit. Tgeorgescu (talk) 19:20, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree that it is "hotly debated" as you said. Not a slam dunk decision either way, with multiple variations on multiple arguments and heated debates. Not a trivial issue by any measure. History2007 (talk) 19:42, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I suspect this comes about because of a recent edit of mine, adding some extra children for Mary. Is there debate on this? That depends on the angle you approach it from: if from the theological point of view, then the older two of the three major branches of Christianity (Orthodoxy and Catholicism) both hold that Mary had no other children; the third branch, Protestantism, doesn't regard it as a matter of any importance is quite prepared to accept extra children. If from a purely literary point of view, then one can trace the doctrine of Mary's virginity as it develops over the centuries, from simple virginity in Matthew and Luke, then perpetual virginity in the next century. That's a non-theological approach. Please note that it isn't a historical approach - for history to be written there have to be fairly reliable sources available, and there aren't any. As the gentleman said in his edit summary, there are no birth certificates. PiCo (talk) 02:29, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

So many breakout subarticles, and so many editors not using them

A lot of overweight (for an overview article) could/should be sent down a step to the Anglican views of Mary, Ecumenical views of Mary, Lutheran views of Mary, Protestant views on Mary, and Roman Catholic views of Mary, Latter Day Saints' views of Mary, Orthodox views of Mary and Islamic views on Mary articles. (wow.. is there any other subject that has so many POVforks?) In ictu oculi (talk) 12:51, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

On one hand, you are right that some sections can become shorter, and the material can be farmed out to sub-articles. On the other hand, being pragmatic, there is an old engineering saying: "it works, don't touch it". And the article, as is falls within length guidelines.

About 18 months ago, this article used to have many edits every month, with everyone and his brother adding something about Anglican, Lutheran, Catholic views etc. And most of the edits were unsourced and some had 100% copyvio problems as I discovered when I went to fix it. After the clean up about a year ago, everything got WP:RS sources and there have been very few major additions because everyone's view was by and large represented.

As is, this article gets over 50 thousand page views a month and no major additions - it has been rather stable. I am pretty sure that if items are farmed out, people will come back and add them anyway (often with less than good sources), and the situation will go back to what it was 2 years ago. In my experience once an article reaches a point of stability, from a pragmatic view, if there are no copyvio problems, and the refs are WP:RS, and the major perspectives have been represented, it is best left that way as stable.

Another element that makes this article "work" so o speak is that the Orthodox have roughly the same amount of real estate as the Lutherans and the Catholics. That type of semi-equitable distribution of space avoids volatility, because if it is not maintained people of diverging perspectives add to their favorite section anyway - again often without WP:RS sources. So I think the stability is partly based on space distribution as well.

And of course, there are so many other articles that need help (say Salvation (Christianity)) that we just do not have the luxury of "extra effort" to clean those up anyway. So I do not see an advantage in farming things out, but a large maintenance problem and a gradual reduction in quality, as well as debates as people add the same things again, if we do. History2007 (talk) 13:10, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough History2007, you've done a lot of work here (as elsewhere) so I'll listen to that. I have however broken out LDS (they didn't have one), and properly linked Orthodox (they did already have one). My attention was only drawn by the recent addition of Mary's grandmother in a Toronto newspaper (cough), that really doesn't belong in the main article, though I moved it up to a footnote in the medieval section. The Middle Ages usually is worth its own paragraph in any religion article.In ictu oculi (talk) 13:52, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for fixing those. As always, there are 10 times as many articles to fix as we have time. The salvation articles are specially in dire shape, so I wish I had time to fix those, instead of looking back at this one every week. History2007 (talk) 13:56, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Islamic perspective

Is not the Islamic perspective the same as the Christian perspective? Islam is 700 years after Mary lived. --Quarrymanny (talk) 13:21, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

There are similarities, as indicated, but "same" is not the word to apply. And in any case, there is no total agreement even among Christian denominations, let alone inter-faith agreement. History2007 (talk) 13:26, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Coogan - notability? recent edits/reverts

Coogan doesn't particularly look like a very notable source. I would have thought bunch him together with more notable other Joseph-father traditions, such as whole churches - Ebionites? Also Coogan's reading "seed of David" as related to Joseph needs a counter ref for NPOV balance since most commentators, religious or secular, take this as Paul viewing Mary (not just Joseph) as a descendant of David. Cheers In ictu oculi (talk) 00:02, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, that is a way off interpretation, and Paul is not in general known as a big time commentator on Virgin birth anyway. But unless we explicitly reject the "Coogan-like" claim now, we will have to address it in 3 month from another editor who reads that book - the title seems ready made for a trip to the bank. But this is in fact a topic for the Virgin birth article more than this one anyway. History2007 (talk) 00:07, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Sounds fine - can you fix and wikilink thru to virgin birth?. You're one step short of 3RR limit in reverting those edits (of TGeorgescu an editor who is quite sensible btw) but if you fix now won't go over. "he revealed nothing about the identity of the parents of Jesus" needs a strike as OR given that "born of a woman born under the law" indicates Paul believed Jesus' mother to be Jesus, and in any case pointless when all mainstream scholarship regards GLuke as Pauline-group-literature. In ictu oculi (talk) 00:13, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I trimmed it anway, but Bockmuehl did say that Paul reveals nothing about the identities of the parents. Anyway, I am 2 steps from crossing 3RR, not one,, because grouped edits count as one. In any case, it looks ok now. History2007 (talk) 00:17, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Coogan mentions on p. 38: "Even Matthew and Luke are inconsistent: when they give Jesus's genealogy, although differing in some details, they agree in establishing his ancestral connection with King David through Joseph, who would have to have been Jesus's father for the genealogical link to be valid." Tgeorgescu (talk) 22:11, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I am sure Coogan says that. But Coogan is just one perspective (and often out to lunch). That topic has been debated by scholars for long, as In ictu oculi can tell you better than myself. There are multiple theories there (e.g. levirate marriage regarding Joseph's father, legal inheritance, etc.) with multiple explanations and Coogan is usually just cherry picking one item. I will wait for In ictu oculi to clarify that more, because I have not looked at that topic for a while, although I do remember that it is not cut and dry by any measure. History2007 (talk) 22:20, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok, granted, Coogan is not the only scholar. There are other theories than his. However, speaking of what text of the gospels says and what it does not say, he has a point: one could very well speculate that the Davidic descent happened through Mary, but the text does not say it (except as seen through the eyes of a minority standpoint, who speculate about the Gospel of Matthew being originally written in Aramaic). There are different questions: how would theologians explain it? and how would historians explain it? The theologians are committed to the right belief for their church, while historians are committed to empirical proof. (This does not say that theologians cannot be historians.) Tgeorgescu (talk) 15:30, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Most of the field of theology is an extended debate about what the gospels say, in fact, e.g. successors to Peter, Trinity, etc. But the use of genealogical reasoning to determine the father of Jesus as Joseph is a topic for the page Virgin birth of Jesus. It has a secondary impact here, at best. As for Coogan, think of it this way, you could read a book by Joseph Stiglitz and add quotes about what causes economic improvements, then those statements will certainly contradict most of what Milton Freedman wrote. And these two people got Nobel Prizes, but never agreed on anything except the weather conditions on any given day, even if that. And the paternity of Jesus is even more contested than that. But in any case, it is certainly a more appropriate topic for the Virgin birth of Jesus talk page, rather than here. History2007 (talk) 16:03, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

What is needed is the statement that this character has no real historical validity, but is a fiction. All reliable historical sources of the time and son afterwards do not even mention this phantom. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.201.140.130 (talk) 20:09, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

And your reliable source which affirms it is...? Tgeorgescu (talk) 21:57, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

But 165.201.140.130 did not say who "this character" refers to. Jesus or Mary? In either case, that was a personal opinion. History2007 (talk) 22:01, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Lutheran and Anglican over-emphasis; not enough history

It is remarkable that Anglican and Lutheran sections on Marian devotion are as long and detailed as the Catholic and Orthodox. I think both of these sections should concentrate on the relatively recent re-discovery of Mary in both of these traditions. From the sixteenth century through the 19th, Marian veneration in both Anglicanism and Lutheranism were considered by the mainstream of clergy in both traditions to be "popish" if expressed beyond recognition of her special role as mother of Christ and her rank as one among many saints worth of emulation by Christians. Traditional Lutheranism especially left little room for Marian devotion, and it is only very recently, as Anglo-Catholicism as found a home in Lutheran quarters (as evangelical Catholicism), that she has made a come back. In Anglican history the fierce resistance to saint's devotion and veneration of Mary during the English Reformation (not limited to Puritans but including the mainstream of the Church establishment) should not be downplayed. Indeed excessive veneration of Mary in the Church of England was proscribed by law into the late 19th century. It is only as ritualists and Anglico-Catholics began to expand in the Church of England in the late 19th century (at the expense of Victorian Evangelicalism) that significant numbers began picking up rosaries and saying hail mary's etc (Cranmer no doubt rolling in his grave!).

Yes, probably so. But 2nd part of your addition needs a WP:RS reference and should probably be more brief. The 1st assertion about "rediscovery" needs a few solid WP:RS references else it will get objections from various editors in 3 months for sure. History2007 (talk) 19:36, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

ok, thanks. will look for some sound references and then maybe merely propose some edits (I'm reluctant to make unilateral change on these sections which people have no doubt spent a lot of work on). stand by...