Talk:Mizrahi Jews

To the poster below

Thats because the previous name of Mizrahim (Must3arb yahudi,Arabischer yidden,Arab Jews) is no longer PC but you should go to some Sephardic Froums especially the Turkish/Rhodes and Spanish Portuguese ones,they certainly object to anything that is not Ashkenazi being called Sephardi. The Situation not so long ago was more blurry also, because Moroccan Jews formerly spoke Spanish(haketiya) ottomons ruled most arab countries and apointed turkish (sephardic) jews as Hakham Bashis (chief rabbis) and Ladino (Jewish Spanish) was the primary Language of The ottomon empires Jews especially in Jerusalem, however Arabic became more dominant over time, untill all the Sephardim outside of Sephardic lands(turkey,greece,Jerusalem etc) Assimilated to Arabic language, I'm a member of some Message boards including a SYrian message board, they distinguish between Must3arabi and Sephardi, but also use Sephardi in the inclusive sense in day to day language.

the Difference between calling all Ashkenazim Ashkenazim and all non Ashkenazi Jews Sephardim is that even though the vast majority of Ashkenazi Jews are not from Ashkenaz, They have their origin there as Evidenced by Language & Names, With Mizrahim they dont have the same language as Sephardim though they often due share some names but not others. Simply put Sephardim in the limited sense is only those of the Spanish Diaspora like Turkish Jews,Yugoslavian Jews,Bulgarian Jews, & Spanish-portuguese(of Holland,germany & UK etc) & Morrocan Jews —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.72.241.66 (talk) 09:15, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Numbers are wrong

In the citiation that gave for Mizrahi population in Israel there is no number (here:http://www.accessmylibrary.com/coms2/summary_0286-32796203_ITM) and in the last demographoc statictis that was published even in the Demography of Israel article is showed that the number is around 2.9 million not 3.1 million include the Sepharadi Jewish population And also for France and Morocco the ethnic idenety for Jewish population wether they are Mizrahi or Sepharadi is uncertained cause the Moroccan Jews are both Sepharadi and Mizrahi (Ari Davidoff) 07:25 24 August 2009 (UTC)

2.9 seems to be a more accurate number, but this number is for Sephardic Jews. While most Sephardic jews can be called Mizrahim and most Mizrahim can also be called Sephardic, the overlap is not absolute. Mostly I am confused because I am a Bulgarian Jew, which the other pages called Ashkenazi, though quite obviously my anscestor's community was Sephardic, speaking Ladino and having Sephardic surnames. Bulgaria is only vaguely oriental, and many Sephardic Jews come from Western countries and the Spanish colonies. I also believe that many older Eastern traditions do not consider themselves Sephardic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.153.254.148 (talk) 08:09, 10 December 2009 (UTC)

Current Arabia living Mizrahi

I think there could be an article dealing specifically with those Mizrahi who still live in the Middle East outside of Israel. This article, as well as Jewish exodus from Arab lands, deals primarily with those who left. There are individual articles, like History of the Jews in Morocco, History of the Jews in Lebanon etc., but no article which brings these all together, and deals particularly with these Jews current status. - Matthew238 (talk) 05:51, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at Arab Jews and see if you think this answers the quandary you pose? Let us know what you think, if you could.LamaLoLeshLa (talk) 06:16, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

they are numerically insignificant. indeed, up until the 1970's there was a community of several thousand still remaining in iraq, but that was about it. if you're interested, professor nissim kazaz documented their life and history until the community's demise. but there are no longer any viable communities in the non-african arab world, aside from a slight chance of viability for the yemeni jewish community. for all practical (encyclopedic) purposes, these communities don't exist anymore. MiS-Saath (talk) 20:08, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

The Arab Jews article is mostly history, with links to other articles about specific country histories. I don't know if there would be enough information out there to create an article, even one regarding the communities as a whole, that dealt purely with the current situation of these peoples (the Arab Jews article gives merely a few sentences here an there regarding current populations).

I agree that they are numerically small, but whether or not they are insignificant, encyclopedically speaking, I'm not sure. Samaritan has an article (about 700 people in two communities), and it has a section on "modern times". Maybe a "modern times" regarding Arab Jews. Most left 'Arabia', but surely those who remained have quite a story? - Matthew238 (talk) 01:38, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

to my best of knowledge, they don't. the samaritan community is active and is a focal point for genetic and ethnic research taking place. the remains of the jewish communities in arab countries are split to fragments and mostly don't run active community life and (for the most part) can't even field a 'minyan'. they're also not of much interest to researchers because communities who live in israel and maintain their heritage provide a much more accessible and live subject for research. there are some points worthy of note, such as the fact that in iraq, the few remaining jews lay claim to a large amount of communal property that survived confistication, the efforts of HIAS in rescuing some of the remaining jews to end their life in better conditions in israel, and some newer harassment affairs (Yahya sa'ad al hudair and the yemenite jews of sa'ada) [1]. but it'll be hard to scrape a decent article off of that material, imho. MiS-Saath (talk) 12:37, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

The population in this article includes Sephardic Midlle Eastern Jews. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ShlomoHasoon (talk • contribs) 00:05, 7 February 2010 (UTC)

Population numbers

The article on the Mountain Jews list the following numbers:

Russia     9,000 to 20,000         
Azerbaijan      5,500   

Since Mountain Jews seem to be part of the Mizrahi Jews, why are these not included in the count on the top of the page? Mhym (talk) 16:23, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Can someone check the numbers for France, please? From wikipedia pages: Sefaradi are 350K, Ashkenazi 200K and Mizrahi 400K (?), this would bring the total Jews population in France over 1,000M I think there is a typo, and it meant 40K (instaed of 400K) for Mirrahi Jews living in France. Needs to be fixed ?! Thanks. Ira —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.140.204 (talk) 03:35, 12 April 2009 (UTC)

Mizrahi vs. Sephardic+ Photobox

There are many figures mentioned in this aticle who are Separdic and not Mizrahi. More, the photo box almost only include third rate Israeli artists, some are of Sephardic origin (e.g.,Maya Bouskilla). --Gilisa (talk) 10:52, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

isnt Maya Bouskilla of North African Jew descent? However , North African Jews are of Sephardi rite , but they are als included in "Mizrahi" category.

Paula Abdul

Her page says shes a sephardic jew, those from the Iberian Peninsula, yet shes listed here which one would be accurate?--Shimonnyman (talk) 22:35, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Ethiopian Jews?

On what basis are they defined here as Mizrahim?Telaviv1 (talk) 19:58, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't think they are and I don't think Jews of Central Asia are either way. Mizrahi are tradionally Jews of the Middle-East such as Iraqi Jews , Iranian Jews etc.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.132.96.27 (talk) 12:32, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

Tunisian Jews are traditionally Sephardi, while Yemeni Jews are Yemeni. The most obvious Mizrahi Jews are from Iraq and Iran, where Jews from Spain didn't settle. TFighterPilot (talk) 15:03, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

Jews from Syria are also Mizrahim though, as well as Iraqi and Iranian Jews, Jews of other sub-ethnic divisions (Sephardi and Ashkenazim) were absorbed in their population trough the years. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.117.192.142 (talk) 16:35, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

Mizra(im) ? Mizra(i) ? Mizra(hi)?

Mizrai(m) is listed as a son of Cham. The word Mizraim is wrongly attributed as being Egypt yet we know Egypt is Cham/Kham/Chem/Khem/KM.t. It seems clear that Mizrai(m) son of Cham/Kham(Egypt) is in some way related to Mizra(h)i which tradtionally implies Persian Jews which makes more sense than simply Mizraim being another name for Egypt. This obvious connection should explored. I cannot be the first to make the easy association, there must be sources. Mizrai, Mizrahi, Mizraim clearly are a plural form of Mizra(sowing?) or Mirza(Persian). ____ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.112.243.125 (talk) 00:01, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry: there is absolutely no connection.

"Mizrahi" comes from the verb "zarahh", to rise or shine, and is spelled with a "zayin" (English z sound). The final "hhet" is a strong guttural, and is an integral part of the root: you can't just elide it to *Mizrai. The word is in any case a medieval coinage, and means simply "eastern".

"Mizraim" is spelled with a "tsade" (ts or hissing s sound): in more modern transliteration it would be "mitzrayim". There is no doubt of its meaning Egypt: the ancient Assyrians called Egypt "Mudraya" and in modern Arabic it is "Misr" (again with a "sad", hissing s). It may just possibly be connected with "metzar" (narrow place), but this is probably folk etymology. The "-ayim" ending is a dual, probably referring to Upper and Lower Egypt.

"Mirza" is a Persian word, derived from Arabic "amir" (commander) and the Persian suffix "za" (son of). The Bible includes Madai and Paras (the Medes and Persians) among the descendants of Japheth, i.e. Indo-Europeans: there is no connection with Ham.

"Mizra" (sowing) has a final "ayin", another guttural, which is an integral part of the root and cannot be dropped or ignored.

Simply comparing how the transliterations look in English without reference to the original languages is a classic form of Pseudoscientific language comparison.--Sir Myles na Gopaleen (the da) (talk) 10:54, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

"Mizrach" means "East". Thus why I think many people don't know what is the broad definition of "Mizrahi". This should be put into question. What is "Mizrahi" and which falls under this category. It doesn't seem "Mizrahi" has any cultural or historical basis thus is it a political term ?