Talk:National Armed Forces

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Old stuff (section heading added 1/6/2012

The NSZ struggled against the new regime, while allegedly continuing to murder Holocaust survivors, whose as NSZ believed were the base for communist government. This material has been suppressed by a well-known vandal. Wetman 05:09, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

They DID killed Jews. In Warsaw Uprising there were reports about units from NSZ or associated with NSZ which were shooting Jews. Szopen

All of them? Was it general policy? They killed Jews because they belonged to communist underground or they were Jews?

At the end, why they were enlisted as combatants be the new law? Cautious 12:00, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No, not all of them, it was not general policy, and in fact one unit quoted mostly as example was very loosely tied to NSZ (can't remember the name, though - it was quote in one article in GW, don't know if you read that)

Nevertheless some did, and one should note that they WERE ACCUSED of doing so, so mentioning that "SOME ACCUSED" them (or, more rightly, "were widely accused" of...) is stating the fact (they were accused, didn't they.

They received finally combatants status? I stopped following discussion about that after some time, but i thought they won't get it... There were so many attacks against them! Szopen

I have never read anything so biased, partisan and revisionist in anything claiming to be an encyclopaedia. It seems clear to me that the writer has an axe to grind about this matter. Many of the facts (about real or alleged crimes against Jewish people by the NSZ) are obscured by both history and nationalism, but enough witness statements exist from survivors to refute some of the more outrageous claims in this article. I believe it is unworthy to appear in Wikipedia in its present form.

Here are some allegations against the NSZ, any ideas how and where to incorporate?

,[1] is well established and remains an issue of a painful debate (as well as the degree of complicity of the Home Army in the fate of Jews during the Holocaust events in Poland[2]). At different times NZS was fighting the Nazi forces as well as the forces of the pro-Soviet communist resistance (see below), the Jewish resistance and the Red Army.

There were actually several NZSs

And it really depends on which one you're talking about. Basically the organization kept splitting with more moderate wing coming into the AK in 1944. But I'm pretty sure that NSZ-JK also split (into "Group Szaniec" and the rest). From what I've read the history becomes really murky at this point with a quite real possibility that the group was infiltrated by either Soviet or German agents although basically "who knows". The defining characteristic of the more moderate faction was its anti-Sovietism ("Soviets are as much enemy as the Nazis" compared to AK's stance on Soviets' as "an ally of our allies") while the more extreme splinter groups (and it's also important to keep in mind that for conspiratorial reasons the leadership was very decentralized which meant that a NSZ partisan group in one region could be pretty ideologically different from a NSZ group in another region) being characterized by extreme nationalism, chauvinism and antisemitism. So yes, many of the accusations directed at NSZ are true, many are pure fabrication and communist propaganda and it also depends which NSZ you're talking about.radek (talk) 09:46, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Second largest - NSZ vs BCh

This article states "At the maximum strength it reached about a total of 70,000-75,000 members, making it the second largest organization of the Polish resistance" while the article on Bataliony Chlopskie states "At its height, the organisation had 175,000 members.". Obviously 175,000 is more than 75,000 making BCh the second largest organization. Part of the confusion comes from comparing the two organizations at different points in their history and whether or not one counts the parts that merged with AK as part of "mother" organization or not. The way it is written at the moment counts at least a major part of BCh as part of AK while counting all of NSZ as a separate entity. But of course a good chunk of NSZ was also absorbed into the AK. An even handed comparison would count both groups based on either pre-AK merger numbers or post-AK merger numbers, but the definition should be applied consistently. Either way I think BCh would come out ahead (which is what the numbers in the respective articles indicate) - which would also make sense given that SL was a larger party, with a much broader base of support right before the war. So I propose changing "2nd" to "3rd" (with a "after AK and BCh"). Thoughts or objections? radek (talk) 10:05, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Cite for blaming NSZ for Communist crimes

The following sentence "Reportedly, communist partisans engaged in planting of false evidence like papers and forged receipts at the sites of their own robberies pointing fingers at NSZ.[citation needed] " does need a proper citation but at the moment I can't find anything "scholarly" (not very many books in English go into detail on the NSZ). However there is this post on an internet history forum: [3]. (by Bielszyn, slightly more than halfway down the page). It provides an account of a murder and robbery of eleven Jews by a partisan unit. This account was retold in a book by the Communist era publicist Wladyslaw Machejek (Polish Wiki: [4]) who presented it as a crime committed by a NSZ unit under the command of Wladyslaw Kolacinski (ps. Zbik). As it turns out the account is taken almost verbatim from a statement made by one Tadeusz Maj (ps. Lokietek), in fact a leader of an AL (Armia Ludowa - communist) partisan unit made after the war in which he is actually describing his own crimes. Other noteworthy aspects of this story are that Machejek himself was a member of GL/AL during the war, and that Maj, despite his freely admitted to crimes, became the chief prosecutor working for the Communist security apparatus in Lodz after the war. Normally I wouldn't consider an online historical forum a reliable source but the author of the post does cite the specific Machejek book in which the story is misattributed to NSZ, as well as the original statement by Maj (in "przesłuchania Tadeusza Maja z 20.5.1953 zdeponowanego w Archiwum Akt Nowych (AAN, PG, t. 21/99, k. 99). Informację tę podaję za za "PPR - Droga do władzy 1941-1944" Piotra Gontarczyka, str. 347"). So there is one instance of communist partisans falsely pointing fingers at NSZ for their own crimes (much more serious than robbery. In fact the account cited makes one nauseous). Would it be alright to cite Gontarczyk on this (though I do not have the book myself)? Of course none of this is meant to deny that some NSZ units did murder Jews.radek (talk) 07:27, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

It is beyond belief that unsubstantiated rubbish in this article is actually published on Wiki and masquerades itself as an “encyclopedic” entry about NSZ. In fact, it is unconscionable that (and I hate to call many of the suppositions here outright lies) are publically displayed for all to see without any editorial oversight before this “masterpiece” ever found its way on the Wiki pages. If one was to seriously take the nonsense published here as a “historic” gospel, and the NSZ is to be labeled as " a right wing, anti-communist, anti-semitic paramilitary organization" prominently featured in the "WikiProject Fascism"project, than I suppose, one could also make an equally outrageous assertion that all of the members of the Polish security apparatus were Jews. Both arguments are of course, absurdly inaccurate. Bare in mind that I am descendant of Nazi concentration camp survivors, and as such, please don’t try to play the “anti-Semitic” card - It “ain’t” going to work. The uncomfortable truth is that some Jews joined the UB, and killed Poles and Jews. Some members of the NSZ killed Jews and Poles, but not because they were Jews, or because they were Poles -they were killed because they were members of the repressive communist security apparatus, caused deaths, inhumane torture, or imprisonment of members of the democratic underground units, or their families. The “ethnic cleansing” statement is perhaps the most troubling as it equates heroes with barbarians. I hope it was not the intention of the authors, but unfortunately, it is exactly the way it reads. If there was any doubt that Wiki is of doubtful scholastic value or has marginal academic credibility, this "creation" is perhaps the perfect example of what history research is NOT! This article should be removed and rewritten with some editorial oversight. Best, Robert. Doomed Soldiers (talk) 02:34, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

Robert, I'm somewhat sympathetic, especially as regards the more moderate parts of NSZ (which were there), or many of the individual soldiers who joined simply because they wanted to fight Germans and found themselves caught up in an ideological struggle, or the fact that many (though not all!) of the crimes they were blamed for were not true or were committed by others (like the AL, per above). But a good portion of NSZ, especially NSZ-ZJ and its leadership, was most definitely anti-Semitic as its own publications (by Grupa Szanca for example) or other verifiable sources (even very pro-Polish ones, like Lukas) state (and I don't think you're disputing they were right-wing and anti-communist). And an encyclopedia is about gathering together existing knowledge - based on verifiability and reliable - not generating new knowledge (so you're right - this is not history research, it's not supposed to be). Having said that I do agree that NSZ does not fall within the scope of "fascism" (at best it fulfills 3, maybe 4, of the criteria listed on project page, wheareas to qualify it's got to be 6 out of 7). Also if DS is your webpage then got to say, nice job.radek (talk) 04:06, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for bouncing back with your comments “radek”. First of all, thank you for your kind comments about the DS project. We are certain that contrary to some of the opinions voiced elsewhere, it is not a "waste of time" ;) Now to the issue at hand: My objections are many, but I enumerate just few of them. One should carefully consider the meaning of the words “nationalistic”, and "right-wing", "fascist", "anti-Semitic" used in this context. These are the very precise words used for decades by the communist propaganda machine of the PRL to describe any and all forms of social, political, and military opposition to the communist regime. These very words were used to describe activities of Home Army, WiN, and other patriotic underground organizations. In the light of the foregoing, we can easily discern that an armed insurrection waged against occupying forces (both the Soviets and the Nazis) and aiming at restoration of national sovereignty would be anything but “nationalistic”, "right-wing", and "anti-Semitic"???. Such accusations were prevalent and cited widely by the "historians" of that period behind the Iron Curtain to discredit the distinguished service of the Doomed Soldiers. Were the similar and distinguished efforts of the Home Army any less “nationalistic”, "right-wing" in this context? Were the motives of the Yugoslav, or Czech partisans any less “nationalistic” or "right-wing"? I do understand that we are playing with words, but words have meaning, particularly when used in this very specific context. Could we suggest then, that if this effort was undertaken under the banner of “International Proletariat” it would then not be "nationalistic" "right-wing", etc, and such that it then would be “good” or “acceptable”? Similarly, and this is one of the more troubling aspects of this “masterpiece”, is that this article portrays the NSZ as a political and military monolith. Nothing could be further from the truth. The conduct of guerilla warfare in the Nazi and Soviet occupied Poland during and after the II WW, was conducted by dispersed groups of small underground cells. This particular situation was endemic, in particular, after the “liberation” of Poland by the Soviets. We appear to take an easy way by tossing all the members of the NSZ into the same bag. The opening sentence of this “literary marvel” reads:

“Narodowe Siły Zbrojne (English National Armed Forces, NSZ) was a right wing, anti-communist, anti-semitic paramilitary organization […]”.

Was Andrzej Kiszka, an NSZ soldier who hid Jews during the Nazi occupation an anti-Semite? Were countless thousands of others whose names we will never know because they were systematically murdered by the Nazis, and by the Communists after the war, also anti-Semites, and “fascists”? Were those members of the NSZ who endured horrific torture at the hand of both Nazis and the communists also anti-Semites, right-wing “extremists, and bad, bad “fascists”?

The content, the tone, and the wording of this “article” denies the rightful place in history to those who have earned it by paying the highest price for their noble efforts. How in clear conscience could this article be ever published under the WikiProject Fascism? It took decades to restore the good name of the "fascists", "extremists", and "nationalists" from the Home Army. How long will it take for the NSZ soldiers to be given their rightful place as well?

Once again, the lack of editorial oversight leading to the publishing of this nonsense is profoundly troubling. Best, Robert Doomed Soldiers (talk) 18:55, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Robert, a lot of that may be true. But the purpose of an encyclopedia is to compile existing knowledge, not carry out research. As a result information that's included in the article has to be referenced to reliable (secondary) sources. For example, the "anti-semitic" claim is cited to Richard Lukas' "The Forgotten Holocaust" [5]. In a similar manner, the fact that despite the fact that a portion of NSZ was anti-semitic, "a number of prominent members of the NSZ made personal efforts to aid and hide Jews" is cited to Jan Marek Chodkiewicz's book. Now, as somebody associated with the Doomed Soldiers website you should probably have access to many sources which are harder to obtain for other editors and it'd be very welcome if you used these sources to expand the article. But in each case the source, the author, the title etc. should be provided (and unfortunately, the website itself does not count as a source). For example, you could add something about Andrzej Kiszka to the article. The article could also use more info on the Communists falsely blaming the organization for their own crimes and the like, again, based on reliable sources.radek (talk) 22:24, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your engagement “radek”. Time permitting, I will definitely contribute to the expansion of this article and will help with clarifying some of the less-than accurately portrayed "facts" here. In the mean time, I believe that for the sake of objectivity, accuracy, and in order not to unjustly wrong all of the NSZ soldiers en masse, the term “anti-Semitic” should be removed from the opening sentence of this article. Rather than arbitrarily editing the first sentence of this article myself, I would like some advisement from you. I am not oblivious to the fact that just like many very difficult subjects such as this, it will remain controversial. However, a broad generalization such as this is neither accurate, nor warranted. Best, Robert Doomed Soldiers (talk) 16:28, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Tag

This will need careful rewriting for tone. "One article asserts...", the antisemitism not in the lead paragraph, etc --Relata refero (disp.) 04:27, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

-- Sure. No problem! After we add the "antisemitism" to the opening sentence, we are also going to add that the Jews alone ran the Polish secret police. An all-revealing record of accomplishments of this god-fearing, good 'ol boy organization, who also wrote the skewed "history" of the NSZ you are repeating like a parrot without much thought, is cited for your benefit below. I also think you forgot to mention cannibalism that should be attributed to the NSZ as well. I assume after that you will be satisfied with the tone of this article? Stop trolling. Doomed Soldiers (talk) 18:32, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Here are some points for Relata refero who had discovered on his own (oh boy) apparent anti-semitic agenda in this article. While we are unable to provide an exact number of the Doomed Soldiers who had perished at the hands of the UB, SB, Informacja, KBW, NKVD, SMERSH and other repressive organs of Polish and Soviet communist regimes occupying Poland between 1944-1963, it has been established that over 5,000 death sentences against individual soldiers of the Democratic Underground were carried out. An estimated 21,000 others perished in communist jails and concentration camps. At least 10,000 others died during direct combat engagements against communist forces. Unaccounted for are thousands others who died at the hands of communists during pacification operations conducted by the so-called "Szwadrony Smierci" (Eng., "Death Squads") or agent-provocateur units created by and directed by the communist PPR, AL, GL, or communist secret services. Thousands others died of "natural causes" after being released from the secret police torture houses, i.e. as a result of internal injuries suffered during interrogations. Additionally, at least 50,000 individuals were sent to the Soviet concentration camps, and an additional 250,000 were sentenced to lengthy imprisonment, or to forced labor in the coal mines and labor camps for their participation in, or complicity in the so-called "political crimes" against the state. Guess what, the more we are digging up, the more conservative these numbers look ... Robert, Doomed Soldiers (talk) 20:50, 27 December 2009 (UTC)