Talk:New Order (Indonesia)

Thank you, User:65.71.169.191

I'd just like to thank the person behind this IP address for creation of this page. I apologize if it seems that I steamrolled your original article, but I had intended to create this page primarily for the purpose of transplanting text from Suharto (which is suffering from bloat).

I am looking forward to adding links to what you have written into this page, especially Discriminatory law against Indonesian Chinese and others.

By the way, by all means I encourage you to register so that you get full privileges as an editor of Wikipedia! --Daniel 08:59, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

CIA involvement

Why does this article not mention CIA involvement in the coup that put the New Order into power? See the documentary "Shadow Play" by PBS for more info.

I agree, as most wiki admins would be able to tell from my latest postings / contributions. This is a crucial issue, in the whole debate on the background and what actually happened before,during and after "the New Order" had come into place. I don't know how short a discussion on this should be to comply with wiki admins sense of how a serious historical debate should be conducted. I only feel that I've been posting enough serious sources,with background, referencing, historians, documentaries, investigations,south-east asian human rights organisations etc. etc. to warrant a discussion and some serious debate.

For those individuals at all seriously and actually interested in a real investigation into the history of Indonesia and the contentious issues, links can be found in the archives of talk/discussion pages of History of Indonesia, in the bottom footnotes /links on the main Indonesia page, as well as in the links on the history of Indonesia.

I'm not yet well enough versed in the wiki HTML-style notation, so I was hoping more people would join in after they had verified or refuted my sources and claims. Thanks again for coming forward with your request. Sincerely, John Smith (nom de guerre) 10:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

John. you should try adding this stuff yourself. It doesn't have to be 100% perfect straight away, (or even 50%!!!). Just add a bit here, and a bit there. If you get formatting wrong, it will be picked up. Remember though, although of course you can express point of views, express them as a POV and not as fact. yes, of course, many eds don't follow this - as is probably the case in this article already - but we should all do our bit. ALTERNATIVELY, if you are not quite bold enough, why not try adding a section in your sandbox - it's easy. And then you can request others review and advise.--Merbabu 11:00, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Rise of Islamism

Just a suggestion, but you might want to fix the Rise of Islamism part. I don't think there was no chance of Indonesia being Islamist under Suharto until the early 90's with the formation of ICMI. Apart from that, Muslims are supressed. Eg. 1984 Tanjung Priok incident.

Jakman 08:37, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Former dictatorships category

I removed this categorization as besides being a violation of NWikipedia:Neutral point of view, it doesn't even agree with the definition in the Dictatorship article, namely "an autocratic form of absolute rule by leadership unrestricted by law, constitutions, or other social and political factors within the state". Arguably the New Order was an autocracy: "a form of government in which the political power is held by a single self-appointed ruler". Davidelit (talk) 05:31, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Nicely put. Certainly a WP:NPOV issue. Categories can be very in this manner. Don't cater for any nuance or anythign but the most simplistic (yes or no) cases. --Merbabu (talk) 06:07, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

POV/OR tag...

An OR tag and two cite requests were added here at the same time. I've addressed the cite requests [1]. There is no further explanation, thus I will remove the OR tag. In future, I hope editors are able to provide more actionable feedback than a section or article tag - I suggest using talk page, or adding specific cite requests. regards --Merbabu (talk) 11:38, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Barry Soetoro

He was in Indonesia from 1967 to 1971 as a kid (otherwise he was a Hawaiian). I wonder how the New Order affected his childhood, if it did in any way. — Rickyrab | Talk 07:48, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Err. He would have been 6 when he arrived and 10 when he left. Presumably his engagement in the opposition to the military government was fairly limited. Or was this a serious question? :-) Davidelit (talk) 08:13, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Origin of the term

Has anyone read anything about the origin of the term "Orde Baru"? When was it first used? I feel like that would be a valuable addition. Arsonal (talk) 17:03, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

How about this article. Not exactly a good precedent... Davidelit (Talk)

Clearly (he peacocked) it was used to distinguish the Suharto regime from the Old Order of Sukarno, possibly with an eye on the western media - hence the use of the faux Indonesian "orde". Perhaps it was analogous to the use of the contrived acronym "Gestapu" for the 30 September Movement to sound like Gestapo. If so, it looks like a misjudgment. If Suharto and his cronies had done their research, they would have found this quote from Franklin Roosevelt: "They (who) seek to establish systems of government based on the regimentation of all human beings by a handful of individual rulers. . . call this a new order. It is not new and it is not order." Davidelit (Talk) 17:18, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

I'm actually wondering if Suharto himself proclaimed Orde Baru (and perhaps simultaneously called Sukarno's presidency Orde Lama) in some speech, as opposed to the historical origins of the term. Arsonal (talk) 18:34, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

The best I have been able to find is in Friend, T. (2003). Indonesian Destinies. Harvard University Press. ISBN 0-674-01137-6. On page 122, he says that at an Army-sponsored seminar in August 1966 known as the Second Army Seminar, to decide on plans for economic stability, "For working clarity, the seminar adopted the terms [sic] "Old Order" for pre-G30S. A "New Order" was the goal of those who wanted a political and economic democracy based on the constitution of 1945 and expressed in Pancasila..." Sundhaussen (1982) says the seminar occurred, but does not mention that it gave rise to "New Order". I can't find any mention of the seminar in Crouch's The Army and Politics... or 30 Tahun Indonesia Merdeka. I'll see if I can dig anything else up. Davidelit (Talk) 06:24, 25 September 2009 (UTC)