Talk:Nicolaus Copernicus

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This talk page is automatically archived by User:MiszaBot I. Any sections older than 60 days are automatically archived to the numbered Talk archives (Talk 1, Talk 2, etc.). Sections without timestamps are not archived. Extensive discussions of Copernicus' nationality are in the archives designated Nationality 1–5. Discussions of Copernicus' nationality are also in the numbered Talk archives.

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Archives

I wonder why the archives start in 2004, instead of 2001 like the edits to this page do. It is especially odd since the comments spun off this page to daughter article Copernicus' nationality were returned here when that page was deleted and are in this pages archives. Rmhermen (talk) 03:52, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't feel like taking the time to check back that far at the moment, but old archives are sometimes "lost" when an article is renamed (moved). If this article has been renamed, the talk page would likely have been renamed as well, but a couple of old archives may exist with the old name. Johnuniq (talk) 07:16, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

No the old material is in the history here but not the archives and the moved material is moved back in the archives already. Rmhermen (talk) 17:08, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

center of universe critique

I personally think this distinction is just as important as the realization that Earth is not central... However, its going to sound contradictory.

Primarily, there are different divisions of science. For this reason it is crucial that we do not over simplify any sort of scientific observation by focusing on a single scientific spectrum.

In short. Physically, the Earth is (apparently) not at the center of the cosmos. However, philosophically it is the center of the known universe. This is in part due to the fact that all human observation of this data comes from human who are born on Earth...

If that doesn't make sense, or you disagree with me simply because you're jealous... well, you should think about finding a new hobby. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.218.85.222 (talk) 01:19, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Copernicus was a Priest - according to the Atheist Stephen Hawkings

Its too bad for you out there who deleted my sourced edit 2 years back, but heres the source:

http://books.google.com/books?id=DiBjCUibQo4C&pg=PA10 So get over yourselves and add it in.98.176.7.5 (talk) 05:07, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

According to the Catholic Encyclopedia Copernicus studied canon law and eventually became a diocesan administrator within the Church, a lay post. It accepts the possibility that he may have taken orders later in life. Best you read the article for the full picture: it's all a bit complicated. --Old Moonraker (talk) 08:37, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

He wasn't a priest, he was a Canon. He could not perform the Catholic sacrament of the Eucharist and other duties a priest would have. To be a Canon he did have to take a vow of celibacy, and he ran into some trouble when people questioned his relationship with a female housecleaner. As this was at the time that Martin Luther was preaching that celibacy was a non-biblical invention of the Papacy (ex-monk Luther married an ex-nun), the rumors around him and the woman got his bishops attention, wondering if Copernicus was embracing Protestantism (the Bishops investigation proved his Catholicism). Few people at the time made Canon a lifelong choice, as they moved up to positions of greater prestige, but Copernicus stayed a Canon (it is theorized that he did so as it allowed him the funds/time to continue his studies without added duties a higher position would entail).Wowaconia (talk) 00:19, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Although it had been accepted by some reputable historians in the past, the myth that Copernicus was a priest was comprehensively demolished by the eminent Copernicus scholar Edward Rosen in the early 1960's. A copy of Rosen's article Copernicus was not a priest, published in the Proceedings of the American Philosophical Society in 1960 is available online, and a reprint of a shorter article of his, Copernicus' alleged priesthood, first published in Archiv für reformationsgeschicte in 1971, is also available in the google books copy of Copernicus and his successors. Every reputable modern historian I have seen comment on the matter (admittedly a very small number) has accepted Rosen's conclusions, and I'm aware of none who has disputed them. Stephen Hawking is not a historian, and he provides no sources whatever for any of the historical material included in A Briefer History of Time, let alone for his description of Copernicus as a "Polish priest". His brief biography of Copernicus in On the Shoulders of Giants contains at least one egregiously unscholarly blunder (documented here), so I can't see how any undocumented assertions of his should take precedence over what appears to be the current universal view of genuine historians. The Catholic Encyclopedia article is probably more trustworthy, but it's now more than 100 years old, and thus well out of date on this matter.

David Wilson (talk · cont) 12:40, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Religious controversy

Could I suggest that the section 'Controversy' be re-titled 'Religious controversy', and edited for balance? The impression currently given is that all of the opposition to the the Copernican system was based upon religious prejudice, thus perpetuating a long-standing myth. Just as in today's world, opposition came from many quarters, including many distinguished (or at least famous) scholars whose whole life work had been based upon what Copernicus proved to be a false set of presuppositions. Many of these opponents seized upon religious arguments in self-defense, for the whole society was deeply interpenetrated with a Christian world-view and a pre-critical reading of the Bible. Copernicus himself, and later Galileo, also shared this world-view: they could do no other within the cultural framework of their time. What the current article obscures is that those who warmly supported the new paradigm were also just as committed to a Christian frame of reference as those who opposed it - and many of them supported it in Christian terms, as a fresh revelation of the wonders (as they saw it) of the Creator's work being revealed. Galileo (in a later generation) has to be included among these supporters: a committed Catholic and lifelong Christian believer he saw nothing challenging to Christian belief in what he discovered and taught. He had many supporters in the clerical establishment - including the Pope, who moved against him only because of the intense political and ultimately also personal factors that had nothing to do with matters of orthodoxy or dogma. The discussion in the article is remarkably detailed; its limitation is in its lack of balance (no discussion of Christian thinkers who supported and welcomed Copernicus), and insufficiently nuanced presentation of the cultural, political and philosophical framework in which these reactions are set. I'd be happy to provide some qualifying text if that would be helpful. Lhb15 (talk) 04:54, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm sympathetic to what you say. "The discussion in the article is remarkably detailed...". Indeed, we have Tolosani sought to refute Copernicanism... two long paragraphs... Despite the efforts Tolosani put into his work it remained unpublished. And yes, I agree taht academic inertia and professional rivalry were as important as religion William M. Connolley (talk) 09:13, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

"Compernicanism"?

This looks like a typo to me, but I can't change it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.18.56.28 (talk • contribs) 17:02, 11 January 2012‎

Thanks for catching this typo. William M. Connolley fixed it.—Finell 03:37, 25 January 2012 (UTC)

Predecessors and other distortions

Predecessors

The section on predecessors is very weak indeed. Copernicus was very well educated in the Catholic universty system and was aware of the argument by people like William of Ockham, a Fransican fair, (~1295-1349) and Walter Burley (1275-1357) covering the notions, going against Aristotle, that there could be vacuums and motion inside vacuums (it should be noted the Franisican also wrote out De Morgan's Laws a mear 500 years before De Morgan was born) . He also was aware of Jean Buridan (~1300, ~1358+), a priest, who, among other things, gave a physical notion on momentum and basically stated Newton first law and who, as the wikipedia page on him states “sowed the seeds of the Copernican revolution”. Buridan also proposed earth turned on its axis and pointed out this is an attractive idea because it would require far less speeds given to heavenly bodies.

In addition Copernicus was aware of the Nicole d'Oreme (1325-1382), a Catholic Bishop. The Bishop, among other worthy contributions to knowledge, placed forward arguments as to why, if the earth rotated, one would not need a strong wind blowing as a result of the motion, and why an arrow shot stright up would still come straight down as opposed to going way off due to earths motion (the Bishop, among other things, also developed the first mathematical proof of the divergence of harmonic series). He also knew that Albert of Saxony (~1320-1390), who succeeded d'Oreme, also a Bishop

Copernicus was also aware of Nicholas of Cusa (1401-1464), a Catholic Cardinal, argued in favor of earth rotation on its axis, pointed out earth was smaller than the sun and large than the moon based on observations of earths shadow on the moon during eclipse, and who pointed out that no matter what rotating planet we on, it would seem that everything rotated around us, thus we did not need to trust such observations. The Cardinal also, in his work on infinitesimals and relative motion (which influenced both Libenex and Cantor) claimed that “The earth is a star like other stars, is not the centre of the universe, is not at rest, nor are its poles fixed. The celestial bodies are not strictly spherical, nor are their orbits circular. The difference between theory and appearance is explained by relative motion”. If Copernicus knew that he rejected it because, as we know, he screwed up his theory by siding with the Greeks in claiming his spheres that rotated around the sun were perfectly circular.

When you add up the arguments that came before Copernicus, for the most part elevated by Fairs, Bishops and Cardinal of the Catholic church and taught in the Catholic universities, which Copernicus was well aware of, it is not OK that it is here left out and in its placed untruths are again elevated, like that he started the scientific revolution – what, talk of newtons first law, vacuum's, divergence of harmonic theory proofs, De Morgans theorem 500 years before de Morgan, and all the rest (for these only mentions but a few things) don't count as major contributions to scientific knowledge?

Copernicus, by siding with the Greeks, screwed up his theory such that the math in it was not as good as the math coming out of the earth at center work. He became a hero on the shoulders of a movement the invented “the Dark Ages” and doing all it could to spit on anything Christian, especially Catholic, leaving “enlightenment” as a glory of the Protestant so the distortion of truth would be excepted by those who have a taste for hate – a movement whose height was seen in Gibbons work. Its high time to clean up such unfounded distortion and here, a big help in that direction, would be a a cleaning up of the section on the work of his predecessors.

Second you could clean up the dishonesty in the controversy section – for example the words

“First Copernicus had assumed the motion of the Earth but offered no physical theory whereby one would deduce this motion. (No one realized that the investigation into Copernicanism would result in a rethinking of the entire field of physics.) “

are completly misleading – it was well understood in the university system that one did not need to have something push the bodies around in orbits just as mentioned above by the very people mentioned – that is the new physics, far from needing to be rethought because of Copernicus, where already in place prior to Copernicus.

Where is it clearly stated that everything in Copernicus's theory is wrong EXCEPT the idea that earth is not at the center of the universe?? The church, as it was, was quite correct in stating that his system had not been proven correct and therefore should not be taught as though it is fact – had it been taught as fact, then all the kids would learn the earth is glued to a huge, perfectly circular sphere, that rotates around the sun.

It is not the case that all Catholics where good people and lofty and without loads of problems – it is the case that this whole article is colored with a defunct view of hate pointed towards Catholicism by the 19th century bigot scholars who thought doing so was a good idea. Clean it up!!

Predecessors and other distortions

Predecessors

The section on predecessors is very weak indeed. Copernicus was very well educated in the Catholic universty system and was aware of the argument by people like William of Ockham, a Fransican fair, (~1295-1349) and Walter Burley (1275-1357) covering the notions, going against Aristotle, that there could be vacuums and motion inside vacuums (it should be noted the Franisican also wrote out De Morgan's Laws a mear 500 years before De Morgan was born) . He also was aware of Jean Buridan (~1300, ~1358+), a priest, who, among other things, gave a physical notion on momentum and basically stated Newton first law and who, as the wikipedia page on him states “sowed the seeds of the Copernican revolution”. Buridan also proposed earth turned on its axis and pointed out this is an attractive idea because it would require far less speeds given to heavenly bodies.

In addition Copernicus was aware of the Nicole d'Oreme (1325-1382), a Catholic Bishop. The Bishop, among other worthy contributions to knowledge, placed forward arguments as to why, if the earth rotated, one would not need a strong wind blowing as a result of the motion, and why an arrow shot stright up would still come straight down as opposed to going way off due to earths motion (the Bishop, among other things, also developed the first mathematical proof of the divergence of harmonic series). He also knew that Albert of Saxony (~1320-1390), who succeeded d'Oreme, also a Bishop

Copernicus was also aware of Nicholas of Cusa (1401-1464), a Catholic Cardinal, argued in favor of earth rotation on its axis, pointed out earth was smaller than the sun and large than the moon based on observations of earths shadow on the moon during eclipse, and who pointed out that no matter what rotating planet we on, it would seem that everything rotated around us, thus we did not need to trust such observations. The Cardinal also, in his work on infinitesimals and relative motion (which influenced both Libenex and Cantor) claimed that “The earth is a star like other stars, is not the centre of the universe, is not at rest, nor are its poles fixed. The celestial bodies are not strictly spherical, nor are their orbits circular. The difference between theory and appearance is explained by relative motion”. If Copernicus knew that he rejected it because, as we know, he screwed up his theory by siding with the Greeks in claiming his spheres that rotated around the sun were perfectly circular.

When you add up the arguments that came before Copernicus, for the most part elevated by Fairs, Bishops and Cardinal of the Catholic church and taught in the Catholic universities, which Copernicus was well aware of, it is not OK that it is here left out and in its placed untruths are again elevated, like that he started the scientific revolution – what, talk of newtons first law, vacuum's, divergence of harmonic theory proofs, De Morgans theorem 500 years before de Morgan, and all the rest (for these only mentions but a few things) don't count as major contributions to scientific knowledge?

Copernicus, by siding with the Greeks, screwed up his theory such that the math in it was not as good as the math coming out of the earth at center work. He became a hero on the shoulders of a movement the invented “the Dark Ages” and doing all it could to spit on anything Christian, especially Catholic, leaving “enlightenment” as a glory of the Protestant so the distortion of truth would be excepted by those who have a taste for hate – a movement whose height was seen in Gibbons work. Its high time to clean up such unfounded distortion and here, a big help in that direction, would be a a cleaning up of the section on the work of his predecessors.

Second you could clean up the dishonesty in the controversy section – for example the words

“First Copernicus had assumed the motion of the Earth but offered no physical theory whereby one would deduce this motion. (No one realized that the investigation into Copernicanism would result in a rethinking of the entire field of physics.) “

are completly misleading – it was well understood in the university system that one did not need to have something push the bodies around in orbits just as mentioned above by the very people mentioned – that is the new physics, far from needing to be rethought because of Copernicus, where already in place prior to Copernicus.

Where is it clearly stated that everything in Copernicus's theory is wrong EXCEPT the idea that earth is not at the center of the universe?? The church, as it was, was quite correct in stating that his system had not been proven correct and therefore should not be taught as though it is fact – had it been taught as fact, then all the kids would learn the earth is glued to a huge, perfectly circular sphere, that rotates around the sun.

It is not the case that all Catholics where good people and lofty and without loads of problems – it is the case that this whole article is colored with a defunct view of hate pointed towards Catholicism by the 19th century bigot scholars who thought doing so was a good idea. Clean it up!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.122.95.2 (talk) 21:09, 4 February 2012 (UTC)