Talk:North–Central American English

Discussion

An example in Minnesota is we tend to say "Miniee" "Soda" where the T\D is mangled. It extends into Wisconsin but not so much into Michigan or the Dakotas. It has been my experience that the eastern seaboard still tends to shape the T more as in the name "Tom" where natives in the area are more akin to say it as a D as in "Dominate" In addition the mid-west dialect tends to favor single syllable words and dropping portions of a sentence, ("Hi" instead of "Hello", "No thanks" versus "No thank you", even so far as "Thanks" instead of "Thank you"). A few words that seem distinct are "Yep", "Nope" vs "Yeah\Yes" and "No". kcp - 8/9/11 6:06 pm cst — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.10.108.91 (talk) 23:15, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

how come there's no page for the chicago accent? Ashwinr 19:40, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Ah. Look at that. I've moved the content inappropriately moved hither, to Yooper dialect, changed the opening sentence thereat, and turned this (North Central American English) into a stub clarifying that Yooper is a subdialect thereof. Tomer ^TALK 10:06, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

I live in Minnesota and I have to question the theory that Yooper is thickest in the UP.meccaneer 04:11, 11 April 2006 (UTC)

Anyone ever heard a Minnesotan say "yah sure, you betcha" except as a joke? Neither I nor my roommate have, and we've both lived here a while. Jay Maynard 02:57, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes but not together it is usually

"Bill you coming or what?" "Yeah sure, let me grab my coat."

"Dude did you gonna bring Debbie with?" "You betcha but I have to check if I can find a sitter."

You betcha tends to be more enthusiastic in nature that the WW2 and Baby Boomer generations. It's dying pretty quick. -kcp 8/9/11 6:18 pm cst — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.10.108.91 (talk) 23:19, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Not by young people, that's for sure, but I live in NW Kansas and there is a small town near where I live and they seriously say 'Ya, shur, ya-becha' and 'There he was, gone' and lastly 'To the store I went today.'Cameron Nedland 23:17, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I have occasionally. Most people in Minnesota don't talk like that though. Especially in the Metro area which is steadily being replaced by the standard american accent. Showers 06:13, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Re "yah sure", you've probably been talking with younger people. My deceased great uncle, from Rochester, NY talked like that.

Sorry everyone, I'm not good at using HTML so I just stuck this in where I could, but it seems like much of this article is very poorly cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.129.127.221 (talk) 20:08, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

It should be added that this dialect uses the word 'yet' in a way that most Americans view as old fashioned, i.e. "The bus is coming yet," and also that in the more northern parts of this sprechraum 'th' is rendered as 'd' or 't' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.38.54.74 (talk) 21:11, 11 November 2011 (UTC)

Need for parallel reference to a Mid-Western Accent

People will say 'where?' when they read 'North Central American'. They'll think of Minnesota, but not Chi-KAH-go.

That's sort of the point - Chicago doesn't have the same accent, they're midlanders. I think something that would be useful is a map of where the NCA does occur, plus the names of the dialects bordering it. Where exactly the NCA accent occurs is hard to define minnecologies (talk) 12:35, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

I was referring to the map here on p. 30/146. It's hard to define any dialect region. It's not the same as the Inland North because it has the cot-caught merger. Thegryseone (talk) 20:26, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Northern Ohio and Western New York State

The accents in these regions are more similar to that of Chicago than to the accents found in the UP and Wisconsin, mostly due to the Northern Cities Shift. Also, "root" and "roof" most frequently use the vowel in "boot," although there are some speakers who use the sound in "wood." Honestly, I think that another article should be written about the accents of the inland north, and that this article should focus exclusively on north central speech. --68.0.212.218 23:28, 6 August 2006 (UTC) Joe

When one searches 'midwestern accent' why does it go to standard american instead of this?

Features said to be Minnesota-specific occur here in southeastern Wisconsin

The article as it stands states that the use of yah [jaː] are the realization of /ð/ and /θ/ are specific to Minnesota, yet such features are very common here in southeastern Wisconsin, specifically the Milwaukee area. Yah is very, very common even though people usually do not realize that they are using it, conflating it with yeah [jɛæː] or [jɛː] (I have heard people deny that they have said it and use it in the same sentence). In word-initial positions, it is very common to stop or at least affricate /ð/ here, even though it may remain as a dental stop rather than becoming alveolar, and one can hear /θ/ sporadically stopped as [t̪] word-initially or in the word with (especially in the case of with the, which is often pronounced [ˈwɪt̪ːəː]).Travis B. 01:53, 23 May 2007 (UTC)

Bah probably just a bunch of Minnesotans that got kicked out for liking the packers.

Not really - a large portion of people here probably have been in Wisconsin or, failing that, the Chicago area since they got off the boat. Also, the features above are just general Germanic substratum features present in much of the Upper Midwest overall, and are actually not limited to Minnesota at all. Travis B. 22:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Yah Showers 06:15, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Current usage of the Dialect

The useage of this dialect if becoming less pronounced in the regions especially among the youth and those living in more populous areas. It may be important to add that this is most commonly spoken by the older and more rural residents. (Information gathered from firsthand observation)

At least here in Milwaukee, these features really have not died out even amongst younger individuals (excluding AAVE-speaking populations, as they never had such features to begin with). Younger people still use words like yah (even though they may not realize that they use such words), grammatical constructions like come with and the use of by to mean at or to, and still have features like word-initial interdental hardening, word-final devoicing, and a uvular approximant allophone of /r/. At the same time, there are some usages which have denied out or shrunk in range amongst younger individuals, such as the use of yet to mean now (which I do not hear in use by younger individuals) or the use of hey [heː] like Canadian English eh [eː] (which is extinct on the west side of the Milwaukee area but is current on the south side of the Milwaukee area even amongst younger individuals). Travis B. 07:21, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

The matter is that features of the dialects in southeastern Wisconsin are transitional, having both clear Inland North and clear North Central features. On one hand there is a very significant Northern Cities Vowel Shift here, but on the other hand there are significant Germanic substratum features similar to those present in many North Central dialects. Travis B. 22:00, 10 August 2007 (UTC)

Again, southeastern Wisconsin is transitional - there is no line that really indicates where North Central stops and Inland North begins.

• I think linguists need to do a new review of the dialect because it is certainly not dying out with younger generations. There is a great influx of younger people outside of the Twin Cities who attend area colleges in the thousands. But that is not where you should be asking if people are speaking this dialect because it is the thousands who were born and raised in the Twin Cities, spread out amongst a metro of 2 million that use it daily at home in the suburbs. If anything, the dialect is being reinforced because the metro area has become more spread out and isolated to the point where many people have limited interaction with no more than their co-workers and neighbors. I would highly disagree this dialect is fading out. The most affluent areas of the Twin Cities in fact have the highest occurrence of this dialect..:DavuMaya:. 06:48, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Foreign language heritage, vocabulary

An anonymous editor has today violated the 3RR rule, without providing justification. The distinctive speech in the region bears influence from and similarity to German. The editor has removed this material. As well, the editor has removed material regarding certain slang.

The person has some confusion about geography. Could the writer explain the points of his/her confusion before making the edits? Perhaps this gets to the point: the region is inland from the two oceans abutting the continental United States. Dogru144 20:06, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

The 3RR violating party is again gutting serious material, without logging a coherent (or any, for that matter) justification on this Talk Page. The revert violator is also adding non-sequitor nonsense in the place of serious information. Lastly, as stated before, the violating party is anonymous. Dogru144 02:45, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Improper edits: emoticons

The referenced anonymous editor has written emoticons on the article page. Namely, s/he wrote :) on the article page, along with other comments more appropriate for the Talk Page. Dogru144 02:53, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

Remarks on Wisconsin Englishes

First off, the majority of Wisconsites do not speak in a yooper dialect. This is Northern Wisconsin. Most Wisconsin English is like that of nearby Minnesota. We have partial Canadian Raising (it's partial for the Minnesotans too), monothongalization of [o], "yah hey dere", "borrow" used to mean "lend", likewise for "bring", and the phenomenon where "lake" and "lag" share the same vowel. Here are some relevent differences: Wisconsin English retains the caught-cot merger, while Minnesota has succumbed to that change. And along the Lake Michigan coast, Northern Cities vowel shift is occurring. Essentially, then, Wisconsin is the ground of a battle in vowel change in the upcoming generations, with the Minnesota vowel pressure on the East and the Northern Cities on the left. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.196.108.189 (talk) 13:18, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

??? Thegryseone (talk) 19:04, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

Sarah Palin

Palin doesn't speak with a Minnesota accent. She lacks characteristic Minnesotan "flag-plague merger" and exhibits a much greater degree of Canadian raising than do most Minnesotans. 71.63.240.191 (talk) 04:47, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Several linguists have already come out and stated her accent is clearly Alaskan English. See also. Apparently Wisconsinites are not aware of this (per reverted IP user's location). davumaya 06:00, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Actually, i'm from Rural mn so our accent is quite strong and believe me she sounds a lot like us! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.183.179.58 (talk) 22:17, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

This is a very simple matter. She was raised in Alaska, so she can't possibly speak this dialect no matter what she sounds like. I guess you would call it "Alaskan English". Sociolinguist William Labov called this area "a dialect region in formation". NYC English has a lot of influence on Yat, but that doesn't mean anyone from New Orleans speaks NYC English. Thegryseone (talk) 19:02, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

That's it exactly. Furthermore, Palin has very little (if any) Canadian raising. I'm Jack^(Lumber) and I approve this message. 00:48, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I will admit, however, that Sarah Palin does sound quite "Upper Midwestern" to me. I think this article explains it all. The Mat-Su Valley area (where Palin is from) has a large settlement of Minnesotans-who were moved there by a government relief program in the 1930s-and features of the Minnesotan dialect are thus prominent in that area. So her accent is a lot like a Minnesotan one, but we still can't call it that, because she wasn't raised there. It's more of a subdialect within "Alaskan English" if you ask me. It's kind of like how rural areas in the Midwest were often settled by Southerners, thus the people in those areas were and are still more likely to have the pin-pen merger than the urbanites, who were often from the Northeast. I believe there are pockets of Southern influence in the West as well because of settlement patterns. Thegryseone (talk) 02:03, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes there are, and I have a couple of sources for that. I'm Jack^(Lumber) and I approve this message. 01:42, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

You haven't mentioned the Op-ed in the New York Times by Steve Pinker. "The dialect is certainly for real. Listeners who hear the Minnewegian sounds of the characters from “Fargo” when they listen to Ms. Palin are on to something: the Matanuska-Susitna Valley in Alaska, where she grew up, was settled by farmers from Minnesota during the Depression." Regardless of opinions about finer distinctions, Steven Pinker has identified as being North Central American English.--Louiedog (talk) 19:22, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

How about including Palin with a explanatory sentence, "Though Palin is not from the midwest, her speech from the Matanuska-Susitna Valley is strongly associated with the North Central American English."--Louiedog (talk) 19:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

As much as I like that article and as much as I respect Steven Pinker after reading it, the fact of the matter is Steven Pinker never identified Sarah Palin as being a speaker of North Central American English. More importantly, William Labov (who's pretty much the leading accent expert of North America if you're not familiar with him), doesn't say she speaks this kind of English. He says she sounds like an Alaskan. Here's the interview where he says that. Please listen to it. Thegryseone (talk) 19:36, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

How about my proposed wording above, that maybe we can't source that it is NCA English exactly, but that it's very strongly related?--Louiedog (talk) 19:51, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

But if you listened to the interview above, you'll hear that it isn't the same. Labov says that she doesn't pronounce her /oʊ/ in goat the same as people in Minnesota. People in Minnesota say [oː], she says something different like [oʊ]. If you make an article about Alaskan English, you can put her on the list of notable speakers and you won't get any complaints from me. My main point is that we can't say that someone who grew up around 3000 miles away from this region speaks with the accent from this region. The traditional accents of Cincinnati and New Orleans were influenced by the accent of New York City, yet no linguist would say that anyone who grew up in those two cities speaks with a true New York City accent because they are not from the Big Apple. In the same way, although the Australian accent may have been influenced by accents from the South East of England, no linguist would say that someone who grew up in Australia speaks with a true blue South East of England accent. I already made this point above if you read it. Thegryseone (talk) 20:06, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

No, I read above; I'm just dubious because I feel there's a stronger connection than in the examples you gave. Anyway, the Palin article is now claiming it's NCA English, so I suppose I'll have to tweak that now. But I'm pretty sure no article is going to be made about Alaskan English, and such a hypothetical article would probably qualify to be merged into this one. So what about a section in this article on the related Alaskan English?--Louiedog (talk) 20:14, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Well you've probably never heard anyone speak the type of New Orleans and Cincinnati accents that I'm referring to, hence the term "traditional accent." Very few people actually speak them anymore and the New Orleans one is more similar to a traditional NYC accent than the Cincinnati one.

Why would Alaskan English qualify to be merged into this article? I don't understand that. Thegryseone (talk) 20:19, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Because of the heavy influence that NCA accent has on the Alaska accent through historical mechanisms, why not?--Louiedog (talk) 20:23, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be much research on that though. We don't really know too much about accents in Alaska at the moment. Also it doesn't seem that this accent influenced all Alaskan accents. The concept of North Central American English is pretty vague anyway and a lot of this article is original research. Thegryseone (talk) 20:31, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Maybe if I explain the value I see in including it we can do something related: people hear Sarah Palin and go "well, dogonnit, I heard that in Fargo!" or in my case, they say, "I lived near that accent in Rochester." And in their curiosity, they look her up, hoping to find the connection, which this article does not currently provide though the proposed sources do.--Louiedog (talk) 20:35, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure all the accents in Fargo were fake anyway though. In fact a lot of real Minnesotans and North Dakotans complained about how awful they were, so people shouldn't pay too much attention to Hollywood depictions of accents. Which Rochester are you referring to? Thegryseone (talk) 20:42, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Rochester, MN, donchaknow?--Louiedog (talk) 20:42, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Like I said before though, she isn't from this region, so I think it would be misleading to you and to the others you mention to include her in this article. There are people in the West and the Midland who have accents that sound pretty Southern, but we wouldn't include them in the Southern American English article as notable speakers because they aren't from the region where that variety of English is spoken.

It would be nice to get someone else involved in this discussion. Thegryseone (talk) 20:51, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

There are no citations, and it seems a bit inaccurate.

I've lived in Northern IOwa, Minnesota, and Wisconsin all my life and I've never heard people pronounce that way in even half the list... --Bandita Chinchilla (talk) 21:34, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I really don't know what you mean. You've never heard people pronounce what what way? Thegryseone (talk) 20:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

External links to folksy webpages

I linked to two websites [1][2] which are not scientific but seem to describe the accent accurately. If there is a problem with them not being good enough sources to include, per Wikipedia guidelines, please comment. Mapsax (talk) 23:44, 3 August 2009 (UTC)

"Great Lakes accent"

The lead section currently reads, "It is also sometimes called the Great Lakes Accent." The only source cited for the lead section is Labov, Ash, and Boberg (2006). If memory serves, though, LAB use "Great Lakes" to refer to Inland North rather than North Central, and typically use the latter two labels when comparing regions. Are there reliable sources stating that "Great Lakes," "Upper Midwestern," and "North Central" are all names for the same dialect region? Cnilep (talk) 18:29, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Per a 1978 review of Allen (1973), that atlas's "Upper Midwest" appears to be essentially the same region. Still no sources for "Great Lakes." Cnilep (talk) 18:50, 17 September 2010 (UTC)