Talk:North Vietnam

End to Cold War Nomenclature

Just to start a discussion on this page for a motion to stop the Cold War Nomenclature on wikipedia, that is, stop using the 'communist' moniker on each and every place it is put on.

That is, restrain from saying a North Vietnam...was a communist state that ruled the northern half of Vietnam from 1954 until 1976., since it sounds so Cold War-dish... instead put North Vietnam...was a state that ruled the northern half of Vietnam from 1954 until 1976, which followed communist doctrine.

That way we will eradicate the bipolarity view of the post war era.

Else we could change alter the page on the U.S which reads as follows The United States of America ...is a federal constitutional republic... to The United States of America ...is a federal capitalist constitutional republic....

I know the distinction between communism and capitalism was an integral part of these nations during the Cold War, but should it be of Encyclopedic value in the future? --Cosuna (talk) 18:03, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

North Vietnam is purely a historical entity, so there is no need to update for the post-Cold War era. You want to write the article as if the Cold War never happened? It strikes me as a 1984ish attempt to revise history. The article should be a service to readers, and I suspect the primary reason readers come here is because of North Vietnam's role in the Cold War and the Vietnam War. Kauffner (talk) 05:57, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

I hartily agree that for historical perfection we need to preserve the facts as they were, not attempt to rewrite history as some may like to do. In the case of "North Vietnam" I don't know this has ever carried anything more than a geographical meaning, such as North America is a lot of unrelated sovereign States, USA is a peoples' chosen joint nation united as the one Sovereign Power over a lot of States, some of which remain "Commonwealths" of several former states and so on.

Therefore this article may best refer to French Colonial Era (2 provinces & 1 protectorate) names were Tonkin (Northern third) Annam (Central third) and Cochinchina (Southern third):NB: There was a preceding time under Chinese Rule when Annam was the whole of Vietnam. Prior to Vietnam recognition (probably more than 2000 years ago) it was part of China as the name translates to mean "all the Chinese race South of the Yangsee" Nam = South in translation modern Vietnamese also, Viets the race of people who were considered nomadic, hunting fishing, outgoing people.

About 4000 years ago the legendary founder of this nation King Hung Vuong mated with the Lac tribe of the mountain regions, to form the lac-Viet tribe or race, they had some 100 children, mother took 50 to the Mountains and father 50 kids to the lowland ocean front areas. One can refer to the legend for more detail, but for the purposes of discussion North Vietnam should remain purely a geographic area reference I believe. Wikipedia should cross reference all of the references accordingly.

Example of the names we should use may be one part "Annam" for the first Colonial Chinese era, two parts "Annam" for the second Chinese era (or when suited), three parts for the French Colonial era as above mentioned Tonkin, Annam & Cochinchina respectively. Then as North and South Vietnam during the Waring years, we should use DRV (Democratic Republic of Vietnam)for Northern under Communist rule and President Ho Chi Minh, ROV (for Republic of Vietnam) a puppet monarchial Kingdom of Bao Dai ruled by Dictator Ngo Dinh Diem (American President Truman Potsdam Decissions then installed) for the South as supported by the USA till 1973 withdrawal, in part, untilfinal ROV defeat in 1975 when DRV won over the ROV to rename the United Vietnam three parts as one post war SRV (Socialist Republic of Vietnam).

There was during the period 1946-1975 a 3rd Government of Vietnam under General Tran Van Tra I am a little uncertain of their location in the Southern remote areas of that RVN (Republic Vietnam) as their legal status was rather confused and Unrecognised generally in the World, these were the Viet Cong I believe, but recognised when Madam Nguyen Thi Binh a communist and Foreign Secretary of that Government was the major influence of the final recognition of the united Vietnam as SRV (Socialist Republic of Vietnam) during the Paris Peace talks.

My explanation I hope explains in short terms what exists in numerous Wikipedia pages if one had the time to codify and cross reference all of those references in one place or one Wikipedia page. I hope the Vietnam Project group will eventually clarify all these points coherantly for every inquirer.--Robbygay (talk) 04:55, 24 February 2010 (UTC) End summary wrong to call as such a geographic word "End of Coldwar Nominclature as that is not North and South names its all one SRV now. but I don't know how to correct that end summary and retain the linkto this page edit --Robbygay (talk) 04:55, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Human Rights

Human Rights Watch claims North Vietnam's army is currently pursuing the Montagnards (also known as Degar), a christian population who collaborated with USA during the Vietnam War.

The above was removed by the author who was concerned whether it was entirely NPOV. Secretlondon 15:53, Nov 11, 2003 (UTC)

I put it back because there is no doubt whether a claim by HRW fits the neutral point of view (NPOV). --Uncle Ed 16:05, 11 Nov 2003 (UTC)

agreed - a claim is just that. Hence I saved it. Secretlondon 16:07, Nov 11, 2003 (UTC)

Declaration of Independence

Declaration of Idependence of the Democratic Republic of Viet Nam

Hanoi, September 2nd, 1945, by Ho Chi Minh

"[…] All men are created equal; they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights; among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness.

This immortal statement was made in the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America in 1776. In a broader sense, this means: All the peoples on the earth are equal from birth, all the peoples have a right to live, to be happy and free.

The Declaration of the French Revolution made in 1791 on the Rights of Man and the Citizen also states: "All men are born free and with equal rights, and must always remain free and have equal rights."

Those are undeniable truths.

Nevertheless, for more than eighty years, the French imperialists, abusing the standard of Liberty, Equality, and Fraternity, have violated our Fatherland and oppressed our fellow citizens. They have acted contrary to the ideals of humanity and justice.

In the field of politics, they have deprived our people of every democratic liberty.

They have enforced inhuman laws; they have set up three distinct political regimes in the North, the Center, and the South of Viet Nam in order to wreck our national unity and prevent our people from being united.

They have built more prisons than schools. They have mercilessly slain our patriots; they have drowned our uprisings in rivers of blood.

They have fettered public opinion; they have practiced obscurantism against our people.

To weaken our race they have forced us to use opium and alcohol.

In the field of economics, they have fleeced us to the backbone, impoverished our people and devastated our land.

They have robbed us of our rice fields, our mines, our forests, and our raw materials. They have monopolized the issuing of bank notes and the export trade.

They have invented numerous unjustifiable taxes and reduced our people, especially our peasantry, to a state of extreme poverty.

They have hampered the prospering of our national bourgeoisie; they have mercilessly exploited our workers.

In the autumn of 1940, when the Japanese fascists violated Indochina's territory to establish new bases in their fight against the Allies, the French imperialists went down on their bent knees and handed over our country to them.

hus, from that date, our people were subjected to the double yoke of the French and the Japanese. Their sufferings and miseries increased. The result was that, from the end of last year to the beginning of this year, from Quang Tri Province to the North of Vietnam, more than two million of our fellow citizens died from starvation. On March 9th 1945, the French troops were disarmed by the Japanese. The French colonialists either fled or surrendered, showing that not only were they incapable of "protecting" us, but that, in the span of five years, they had twice sold our country to the Japanese.

On several occasions before March 9th , the Viet Minh League urged the French to ally themselves with it against the Japanese. Instead of agreeing to this proposal, the French colonialists so intensified their terrorist activities against the Viet Minh members that before fleeing they massacred a great number of our political prisoners detained at Yen Bay and Cao Bang.

Notwithstanding all this, our fellow citizens have always manifested toward the French a tolerant and humane attitude. Even after the Japanese Putsch of March, 1945, the Viet Minh League helped many Frenchmen to cross the frontier, rescued some of them from Japanese jails, and protected French lives and property.

From the autumn of 1940, our country had in fact ceased to be a French colony and had become a Japanese possession. After the Japanese had surrendered to the Allies, our whole people rose to regain our national sovereignty and to found the Democratic Republic of Viet-Nam. The truth is that we have wrested our independence from the Japanese and not from the French. The French have fled, the Japanese have capitulated, Emperor Bao Dai has abdicated. Our people have broken the chains which for nearly a century have fettered them and have won independence for the Fatherland. Our people at the same time have overthrown the monarchic regime that has reigned supreme for dozens of centuries. In its place has been established the present Democratic Republic.

For these reasons, we, members of the Provisional Government, representing the whole Vietnamese people, declare that from now on we break off all relations of a colonial character with France; we repeal all the international obligation that France has so far subscribed to on behalf of Viet-Nam, and we abolish all the special rights the French have unlawfully acquired in our Fatherland.

The whole Vietnamese people, animated by a common purpose, are determined to fight to the bitter end against any attempt by the French colonialists to reconquer their country. We are convinced that the Allied nations, which at Teheran and San Francisco have acknowledged the principles of self-determination and equality of nations, will not refuse to acknowledge the independence of Viet-Nam.

A people who have courageously opposed French domination for more than eighty years, a people who have fought side by side with the Allies against the fascists during these last years, such a people must be free and independent.

For these reasons, we, members of the Provisional Government of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam, solemnly declare to the world that Viet Nam has the right to be a free and independent country—and in fact it is so already. The entire Vietnamese people are determined to mobilize all their physical and mental strength, to sacrifice their lives and property in order to safeguard their independence and liberty".http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?doc=2

Takima 15:11, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

Naming

Legally, in International studies and politology do exist "West Germany", and "East Germany"?

The legal name is "Democratic Republic of Vietnam" since september 2nd, 1945. Was "North Vietnam" at Geneva in 1954 and Paris in 1974? Did North Vietnam sign any international Accords and Convention? Takima 15:49, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the "North Vietnam" signed the Geneva, the South hasn't been recover from the French Colonists yet. Both North and South VN signed the Paris one, you should've known that.68.161.48.162 04:12, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't just North Vietnam who signed the Geneva accord, there were no North or South Vietnam at that time, there was just one united Vietnam, South Vietnam was created as a consequence of the Geneva accord. In 1973, both North and South Vietnam signed the Paris peace accords.--lt2hieu2004 08:00, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Hanoi never used "North Vietnam" officially, always "Democratic Republic of Viet-Nam". South Vietnam was the "State of Viet-Nam" at the time of Geneva and had a separate delegation at the conference. Wikipedia practice is to use WP:COMMONNAME, not legal names. Kauffner (talk) 16:53, 23 April 2009 (UTC)

Sorry if I'm wrong, but isn't it also called the People's Democratic Republic of Vietnam? And if it is, shouldn't that be in there? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.113.74.34 (talk) 02:53, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, you are wrong. It was never called People's Democratic Republic of Vietnam.--AM ^(talk) 14:55, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

I wish you guys would get this right. Northern third of Vietnam was during the French Colonial era called "Tonkin". At one time Central and North Vietnam was Annam, then only Central Vietnam under the French was Annam. The South was Cochinchina under the French, but some claim at one stage all was called Annam, I don't know for sure.

But after the Northern Viet-Minh Army, who had been a Western allied jungle Army under General Vo Nguyen Giap (currently 99+ and very close to death near his 100th birthday). Ho Chi Minh (Born Nguyen Sinh Huy, educated as Nguyen Sinh Cung, Nguyen Tat Thanh and Nguyen Ai Quoc variously. later with French Communist press La Perla, visited Russia as Comrad Linov and China as Comrad Vuong) was the Jungle leader who was rescuing allied airmen and returning them to the Allies at safe Embasies in China, and Laos perhaps, later during the japanese occupation helping USA keep a CIA Radio asset in his Jungle safe haven.

In 1946 after the Japanese surendered the Northern Tonkin to Chinese allies (as settled by Truman in the Potsdam Convention), Ho promptly declared Vietnam independence in Hanoi Ba Dinh Square, just a few days ahead of Truman's dictate intended had reversed Roseveldt's deceased intention for an election, Truman ordered Chinese to hand back to France as a colonial asset. However Ho had an election anyhow, he was chosen in the Tonkin North area to lead with King Bao dai a Supreme Advisor to himself.

At that declaration he initiated the flag as now exists and he chose the name DRV (Democratic Republic of Vietnam) and yes it was called a people's Government "Of the People, By the People, for the People" I think that originally was also an American expression he adopted, but no, the Country had left the word "Peoples" out of the name (China was "Peoples Republic" i think) and he was not copying them, for all their tea in China. His stated motto then, as is still on all official and formal mail here in SRV, the words state at the very top right hand side "Doc Lap - To Do - Hanh Phuc" (Independence - Freedom - Happines) following American ideals again.

Then the French tried retaking Hanoi, Tonkin State, and in 1954 the Viet Minh put a final end to that at Dien Bien Phu, where the French were slaughtered by General Giap's wisdom and Viet Minh Army tactics, Ho reconfirmed the DRV power and sovereignty ofver the DRV (Tonkin area) which eventually extended down as far as Dong Hoi Quang Binh Province at the 17th latitude Tropic of Cancer near the Central Annam Border of the Quang Tri Province and the DMZ (demilitarized Zone) a "No-man's-land" between DRV and ROu.

The South that had been Cochinchina Under the pre-WWII French had become part of Annam Kingdom, then Americans brought King Bao Dai back from France to rula the Kingdom and installed Ngo Dinh Diem under that Puppet King in Saigon, claiming sovereignty as the Republic of Vietnam. However there was at the time, and even since about the time of Ho election in the North DRV, a Vietnam Republic Government called RVN with the elected leader General Tran van Tra President and Mrs Nguyen Thi Binh foreign Minister (as was later confirmed by the Paris Peace talks). In the Paris Talks she brokered the settlement after 1975 fall of Saigon and the ROV, to allow her RVN and Ho's DRV to unite as the SRV or Socialist Republic of Vietnam for the whole post-Vietnam War area of Vietnam Peninsular as we know it today, in Post-Cold war Vietnam if you wish, now recognised by the whole World as the sovereign State Republic of Vietnam (SRV) actually titled "Socialist Republic of Vietnam" (SRV) or "Cong Hoa Xa Hoi Chua Nghia Vietnam".

In fact so well confirmed Sovereign State, by their membership of the UN, WTO, NAM, APEC & ASEAN (this year they are leaders of ASEAN presidency by rotation and a member of the UN Security Council).

Does all this help you Guys decide the facts and direct your research accordingly. Regards--Robbygay (talk) 07:09, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

The account above is quite confused. In newspaper usage during the colonial period, the North was "Annam" and the South was "Cochinchina." Annam was a protectorate with a native king and a dual system of administration, while Cochinchina was considered a part of France and represented in the National Assembly. There was a French governor in Hanoi who administered all of Indochina, so the local inhabitants were "Indochinese" as far as English and French speakers were concerned. The historical name "Vietnam" was resurrected by nationalist writers and adopted officially in 1945 by both Emperor Bảo Đại and by the DRV. The French appointed Bảo Đại to head the Cochinchina government in 1949 and he appointed the anti-French Diệm as his prime minister at the time of Điện Biên Phủ (1954), when the French were obviously losing their grip.

Trần Văn Trà was a PAVN general assigned to the Vietcong, i.e. someone appointed by Hanoi. He was a "faceless Vietcong," almost a secret agent during the war. He was never elected by anyone or president of anything. Kauffner (talk)

Chinese in lede

"越南民主共和"[1] is the long form name of North Vietnam in standard Chinese, i.e. not a Sino-Vietnamese form. I assume this name was put on the banknotes for the benefit of Vietnam's Chinese minority, who are noted for their business skills. I don't think it belongs in the lede at all, but at very least it should be identified as Chinese. Kauffner (talk) 08:41, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Status as client state

Not sure what the deal is, but maybe another vist to ANI is needed? --Mollskman (talk) 01:15, 3 February 2012 (UTC)