Talk:Overseas Chinese

There is not much information about Chinese in Singapore, where they are the ethnic majority. In addition, the economic significance of Chinese in Singapore has been considerable in recent times.190.231.147.81 (talk) 19:25, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Overseas Whites

I find it shocking there is so much info about the ethnic Chinese in other countries, down to numbers and habits (there's a dedicated page for each country!), whilst I don't see much attention to the white populations in non-white countries.

81.111.120.73 (talk) 04:49, 21 March 2010 (UTC)

Missing overseas Chinese

There are more Chinese than article's stats, are these population index are up to date? Also where are these Chinese in Korea?--KSentry(talk) 12:43, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Northern Ireland Flag

Some has twice removed the Northern Ireland flag template (Northern Ireland) from the infobox. Re-inserted. Please do not remove. Qwerta369 (talk) 09:14, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

You can (and should, instead of blindly reverting) use the page history function to see who it was. In this case, it was User:O Fenian, whose stated reason for removing it was that it's a historical flag no longer in use. I'd suggest contacting that editor directly at his talk page, since I'm guessing that, like myself, none of the other regular editors who watch this talk page and contribute content to the article have any informed (or even uninformed) opinion on the matter. cab (talk) 09:18, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Hi. If User:O Fenian has a problem with the Northern Ireland flag template (Northern Ireland), he should seek to "fix" the template itself or see Template Talk:Country_data_Northern_Ireland, rather than removing the template from articles. I have sent him a message on his talk page. Qwerta369 (talk) 09:23, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

This article has not had a flag for quite some time, see the history of the article. That is because Northern Ireland does not have a flag. See Flag of Northern Ireland. There is no need for me to "fix" any template, since it is still in use for some sporting contexts and it will cause an uproar. For further information on this see Wikipedia:Manual of Style (icons). If you object to the lack of a flag I recommend you contact the Northern Ireland Assembly and ask them to create a new one, since until there is a new flag one will not be appearing in this article. O Fenian (talk) 10:25, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

O Fenian. Please see Template Talk:Country_data_Northern_Ireland. The issue of whether this flag should remain or be changed has been discussed at length and the consensus is that it should remain. If you do not agree, please seek a new consensus. Since your issue appears to be with the flag contained within the Northern Ireland flagcountry template and not with the flagcountry template itself, I have reinserted this template. All other countries in the infobox have their respective template. Please do not revert. You may also wish to read WP:POV. Qwerta369 (talk) 10:34, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

No, I have explained why that is a red herring. See guideline Wikipedia:Manual of Style (icons)#Overbroad use of flags with politicized connotations, Flag of Northern Ireland, Northern Ireland flags issue, and even the British Prime minister's spokesman saying "The position in relation to Northern Ireland was that it did not have a national flag" (striking due to currently dead link), and British government papers saying "The Ulster flag and the Cross of St. Patrick have no official status". Northern Ireland does not have a flag, the only breach of WP:POV is using that flag in this article. O Fenian (talk) 10:39, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

O Fenian. I suggest that you discuss this on Template Talk:Country_data_Northern_Ireland if you are unhappy with the flag used in the Northern Ireland flagcountry template. Qwerta369 (talk) 10:42, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

That template is irrelevant as to whether the flag can be used in this article, as I have explained. I have also explained what you need to do if you want Northern Ireland to have a flag, contact tbe Northern Ireland Assembly. O Fenian (talk) 10:45, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

In particular you may wish to look at this edit (and the discussion it is in). A change to the template has been ruled out due to the sporting use, but an administrator says "If you think that the flag is inappropriate for that set of articles, just remove the {{flagicon|Northern Ireland}} string from {{Northern Ireland elections}}. You don't need to change anything else". Yet bizarrely you say no I need to change the template, instead of doing what he says. O Fenian (talk) 10:47, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

There is also WP:IRISH FLAGS. I have now provided links to two guidelines about not using the flag, provided two reliable sources saying Northern Ireland does not have a flag, and have also directed you to two Wikipedia articles about the flag and problems associated with it. I do not accept "you need to go the template talk page to amend it" as an argument any more, I am sorry. O Fenian (talk) 10:50, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

The infoboxm, and its Northern Irish flag or lack thereof (presently: lack) has been moved to Template:Overseas Chinese infobox, following along with the practise of similar articles like Japanese diaspora (Template:Japanese ethnicity). Please feel free to continue your discussion at Template talk:Overseas Chinese infobox, and request protection for that template if necessary to avert an edit war. Cheers, cab (talk) 11:14, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Chinese in France

Hello,
I have a new source claiming that there are 600,000 to 700,000 overseas Chinese people in France, whereas this article says 230,000. However this source is in French. Will you still take it into consideration? Thank you in advance for your reply. Source : http://www.slate.fr/story/23827/chinois-de-france-ne-veut-rien-dire —Preceding unsigned comment added by Yakuzanodon (talk • contribs) 08:33, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Most numbers that came from "News sites" are highly unreliable, as they tend to exaggerate things. An example of this would Angola in which a News article claims there are 100k Chinese there, yet the real number is well below 10k and most of them are temporary workers. A real reliable number would be either from France National Bureau of Statistics itself or to a lesser extend, the Chinese Oversea compatriots statistics.--LLTimes (talk) 18:42, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I see but statistics based on ethnic origins are normally forbidden in France; the INSEE does not make any. These figures were estimated by Pierre Picquart, who is a specialist in China, in his book L'Empire chinois. This source has also been used by the very famous newspaper Le Figaro ([1]) and the magazine Réforme ([2]). Even the article about Chinese people in France on the French wiki uses these figures. Yakuzanodon (talk) 07:34, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

I've justified what I stated but still, you won't reply. May I know why? Yakuzanodon (talk) 19:07, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Overseas --> Chinese Diaspora?

I'd like to see consistency in this. It's weird to see one ethnic group be called "X Diaspora" while this article is "Overseas Chinese" instead of "Chinese Diaspora". Red Card For You (talk) 02:13, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

This is not the only outlier. See Non-resident Indian and Person of Indian Origin (which uses an even more cumbersome official government term), Iranian citizens abroad, Cuban exile. Quigley (talk) 02:23, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Unless there's an ulterior purpose I suggest we move all of them to match "X Diaspora". I'll take the liberty of doing it. Red Card For You (talk) 03:13, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

Wait. I'm not familiar enough, but I did ask the creator of this article (other knowledgeable editors should be consulted also; at least submit a move request), who is still an active editor and who chose this name, to explain. It could be used more than 'Chinese diaspora', be the preferred language of the scholarly literature, or be more or less inclusive than a 'diaspora'. Quigley (talk) 03:25, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I got the note. Pretty strongly against the move, since no one in China is going to have any clue what a "diaspora" is. There's just no Chinese term for the word "diaspora" so if you use that term, no English-speaking Chinese person in China is going to have any clue what you are talking about. One other point is that being an "overseas Chinese" is an legal status in both Mainland China and Taiwan. There are also a thousand different controversies involving naming that you really don't want to get into.

Also, I think that the same thing is true for Indians (although I'll be glad to hear any corrections). I've heard Indians talk a lot about NRI's, whereas my guess is that most Indians are not going to have a clue what a diaspora is.

Roadrunner (talk) 04:30, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Yes, actual English usage is preferred as a guide to article titles, rather than Wikipedian attempts at standardisation. Formulations like "Fooian diaspora", "Fooian exiles", "Fooian emigrants", "Fooians abroad", etc. have subtly different meanings, and the whole point of WP:NC(CN) is that the scholars and writers who study these subjects have a better idea than three random Internet users who show up at a Wikipedia talk page about how to refer to all of these different populations. Compare:

• Find sources: "Overseas Chinese" – news · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images --- 255,000 Google Books hits
• Find sources: "Chinese diaspora" – news · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images --- 19,000 Google Books hits

Or for that matter:

• Find sources: "Americans abroad" – news · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images --- 39,000 Google Books hits
• Find sources: "American diaspora" – news · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images --- 9,500 Google Books hits (of which a sizable proportion appear to be using the term to mean "Fooian diaspora IN America" rather than "Americans living outside of America")

And:

• Find sources: "Cuban exiles" – news · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images --- 56,000 Google Books hits
• Find sources: "Cuban diaspora" – news · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images --- 2,300 Google Books hits

Regards, cab (call) 08:50, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I too think the move is unnecessary. Diaspora is not just a synonym for overseas: from the article: "In all cases, the term diaspora carries a sense of displacement; that is, the population so described finds itself for whatever reason separated from its national territory, and usually its people have a hope, or at least a desire, to return to their homeland at some point,", So it is used for example for the Jewish diaspora or the Palestinian diaspora but not usually to describe people of Chinese descent living outside China.--JohnBlackburne^words_deeds 11:03, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

I think its a very bad idea since "Overseas Chinese" is the standard term that people are familiar with. If you go to someone in China and talk to them about "Overseas Chinese" they know what you are talking about whereas if you talk about a "Chinese Diaspora" they are going to have no clue what a "diaspora" is. I don't even know how to translate the term "diaspora" into Chinese.

Yes this may create a lot of inconsistency because different ethnic groups have different terminology. But there are usually a lot of minefields in the naming, and there are usually extremely good reasons for the names being what they are.

Roadrunner (talk) 04:23, 11 October 2010 (UTC)

Use of "PRC"

The term "PRC is used in conflicting ways here. In the 1st paragrah, it's meant to include HK and Macau. Further down, it's used to mean Mainland China.

I propose changing the top paragraph to be neutral. (I know there's a whole debate on using of "PRC" and "Mainland," but I think it's largely irrelevent here.)

The top is also clunky and wordy, and I propose changing it to this more concise version that just gets to the point of the definition of the term.

"Overseas Chinese are people of Chinese birth or descent who live outside Mainland China, Hong Kong, Macau, Taiwan or other regions with a Chinese majority. People of partial Chinese ancestry may also consider themselves Overseas Chinese." Pumpkin888 (talk) 17:48, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

That's fine. Either do that or use the term "Greater China Area", which means the same thing as what you've written. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 14:19, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Info Box

Why are there pictures of people without any labels? I think those pictures are not notable to the article and should be removed.71.251.43.92 (talk) 06:36, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Peru, Panama, India

Peru has been brought up before: [3]

These country numbers are based on the ROC commission figures and they look wrong. Peru especially. It's rare to see a Chinese immigrant in Peru. The historical immigrants came in the 1800s so they became part of the melting pot. There may be over a million people with Chinese ancestry in Peru but they in no way identify as Chinese like someone in the US or Malayasia so to group the Peruvian number with these other figures is misleading. Panama I think is the same case. I really wish to see the Peruvian number corrected because it inflates the count by over a million.

The Chinese in India article gives 20k.

Moneyboats (talk) 03:23, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Possible to add another column?

I don't know how to do this but is is possible to add a country population column so we can easily check some of the percentage math?

Moneyboats (talk) 03:41, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

White Australia policy

This article goes to some lengths to talk about semi-recent racially motivated attacks against ethnic Chinese living in countries where they are a minority. It even briefly mentions the discrimination faced in North America. However it is probably just as note-worthy that one of the countries where Chinese now live as a large proportion (Australia) once had racially motivated government policy directed (predominantly) towards the Chinese. I might see if I can integrate this into the article myself at some point.--Senor Freebie (talk) 03:09, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Overseas Chinese is not an accurate term

In China, they have an expression haiwai huaqiao which became translated as overseas chinese in English. But those are Chinese citizens living abroad, they are expatriates. Citizens of the US or other countries that are of Chinese descent are NOT "overseas Chinese" and may be offended by such terms. I was reading an article about my hometown san francisco and it referred to persons of Chinese descent. But when I clicked on the term it linked to this page. Being of CHinese extraction but a full red blooded tax paying American girl, I felt hurt and bewildered, and hope that someone can correct this item. I am new to Wikipedia and not sure exactly how to go about doing this but will give it a try,please forgive me if I am doing it wrong. Thanks guys Capigu (talk) 07:58, 10 June 2011 (UTC)