Talk:Oxford

Links

In the sentence:

 See also University of Oxford and Magdalen College, Oxford.

I am going to replace the link to Magdalen College with a comment that links to all colleges are to be found on the University of Oxford page, as there is no reason in the particular context to single out one college.

However, where the photo captions refer to particular colleges (including Magdalen) these can be turned into active links.

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Controversy

Some world map makers are arguing over the new Oxford World Atlas map.... It is claimed that they were biased when making this new map. Places such as islands and seas were renamed to the favor of a "stronger nation" in that region.... Such examples follow by the Liancourt Rocks...(Tokdo in Korean Takeishima in Japanese) In their world atlas. Oxford only mentions Takeishima under Tokdo and failed to mention that Tokdo belongs to Korea... Not Japan... The big controversty still lies where the marginal sea that lies between Korea and Japan is called "Sea of Japan".... Oxford did not mention East Sea which is a more neutral term used.... Please add more information below for this argument...

Urrm. Not shaw what this has to do with Oxford... That is Oxford University Press. Noting to do with the city of Oxford, any more that you can comment on the work of the London school of economics, and use it to critisies London as a whole.

To correct the Geographical error that places Oxford in the South East of England. This is incorrect as Oxford lies above the area gennerally considered to be the South East of England (London and the home counties, infact to my mind anything below Watford is the South East). I would put Oxford as more South Midlands or central England.English n proud (talk) 11:51, 12 February 2011 (UTC)

Images

There are far too many images cluttering up this page, couldent some of them be put on a "See more Images" section like is done at the Coventry Cathedral article, rather than having them cluttering up the article space. G-Man 23:24, 28 Feb 2004 (UTC)

I have (what I believe to be) a better image of the Oxford Museum of Natural History, and one of Christchurch college. Is it worth replacing the current pictures or inserting a gallery. Please see here to view the pictures to consider if they are worth uploading. --Jdedmond 21:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

Umm, sorry to be picky, but there is no such thing as Christchurch college, at least not in Oxford. There's a college called "Christ Church". Not "Christchurch college", not "Christ Church college", not "Christ Church College", any more than LMH is "Lady Margaret Hall College", just "Christ Church". Also, as there's rather a lot of Christ Church it might help to say "Christ Church from the War Memorial gardens" (or whatever). Philip Trueman (talk) 13:00, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

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Churches

I moved this here from the article because I don't think it adds anything particularly interesting, but might be worth putting back in a different form.

Churches in central Oxford

• Blackfriars (Roman Catholic) Dominican Priory, 64 St Giles
• Christ Church Cathedral (Anglican), St Aldates
• German Lutheran at St Mary the Virgin, High Street
• New Road Baptist Church, Bonn Square
• Orthodox Church of the Holy Trinity and the Annuciation, 1 Canterbury Road (off Banbury Road)
• Religious Society of Friends (Quaker)
• Roman Catholic chaplaincy, Rose Place, St Aldate's
• St Aldate's (Anglican)
• St Aloysius (Roman Catholic), Woodstock Road
• St Columba's United Reformed Church, Alfred Street
• St Cross (Anglican)
• St Ebbe's (Anglican), Pennyfarthing Place, off St Ebbe's
• St Giles' (Anglican), St Giles'
• St Mary Magdalen (Anglican) Magdalen Street
• St Mary the Virgin University Church * St Michael-at-the-Northgate (Anglican)
• The Salvation Army, Oxford Citadel, Albion Place
• Wesley Memorial Methodist Church, New Inn Hall Street

- Lady Lysine Ikinsile 13:46, Jun 10, 2004 (UTC)

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Must agree, though it seems to have found its way back. Perhaps someone clever can boxify it or make it interesting. Alf 2 July 2005 20:30 (UTC)

Myths

There are two rumours I have heard since moving to Oxford, which I assumed to be myths:

• North Parade is more to the south than South Parade (both in North Oxford and Summertown) because of the parading of troops during the Civil War.

Jan Morris's Oxford quotes this story, but gives no source. Thruston 16:16, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I've heard this also, I know the guy to ask, I'll post the sources when I get them. Alf 21:54, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC) Hansard backs this up - [1] 22 Jan 2003 : Column 821 second paragraph. North Parade and South Parade, standing about 300 yards apart, mark the lines where the armies of the executive (the King) and Parliament regularly faced each other while the court was in Oxford during the Civil War. So North Parade for the Northern Army (King) and South Parade for the Southern (Rebellion) Army.Alf 02:47, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

That link doesn't work for me. Mark¹ 02:51, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

link fixed.Alf 09:42, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

• The St Giles' Fair has to be done every year so St John's College can claim their ownership of the road St Giles'.

Are these true? – Kaihsu 11:32, 2004 Dec 15 (UTC)

Not true about St Giles Fair, but True (as far as anyone can tell) about Notrh and sounth parrade. The names dont come from "the Northen and Sothen Armys", but the northan most "parrade" of the kings army, and the sothen most of the Palimanterian.

Another one is that

One can walk from St John's College, Oxford to St John's College, Cambridge without leaving land which are owned by either one of the colleges.

– Kaihsu 15:59, 2004 Dec 24 (UTC)

This last one is said about other colleges too, so I'd strongly suspect MYTH Thruston 16:16, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

There is a book called Encyclopedia of Oxford or some such in the (County) central library next to Westgate shopping centre. It might clear up some of these myths. But I have not investigated deeply. – Kaihsu 17:46, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

The story about St John's land ownership was, I believe, literally true at the time of Samuel Johnson - I will not pretend to have read it from his work, but it is cited passim. It is almost certainly no longer the case! ndaisley 11:39, 30 Nov 2005

Tourist guide

My apologies for the boring lists under "Tourist Attractions". My intent was/is to work them up into small paragraphs on in each section, but I'd welcome help.

I also thought that it would be good to link them up into a series of "Walks around the City". This might be an interesting way for visitors to find / explore the many scattered items about things in Oxford. Comments?

Toby Thurston 16:20, 22 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It's not our job; we're an encyclopedia, not a tourist guide. Paragraphs would be good, though. Mark¹ 02:03, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)

-

The 'vue cinema..' bit in the attractions section is quite clearly just an advert. I suggest it should be moved down the list, if not removed entirely. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.107.132.59 (talk) 21:34, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Twinning

I'm checking with Oxford City Council as to the status of the Perm twinning and requesting info on twinning proposals, the City Council webiste still lists Perm.Alf 21:51, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Have response - "Perm is very much a twinning- probably one of the strongest currently" (May Wylie, Oxford City Council contact for twinning issues) so have edited to remove weak twinning slant.Alf 10:28, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Yes, activities with Perm appeared in the local press. Sorry for earlier misunderstanding. – Kaihsu 17:44, July 30, 2005 (UTC)

Geography

'wards, neighbourhoods and suburbs' is confusing, Oxford City Council has 24 wards so some are missing, neighbourhoods will depend both on local viewpoint and local maps which vary with year and publisher eg. cold harbour (a tiny area at the end of the Abingdon Rd), how far from Carfax can a suburb be - would Berinsfield count?. I'd like to remove list, ensure former live link listing in bulk and move the shark to Images of Oxford (which would be better on it's own page as it seems to clutter the article). Alf 22:30, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

What are the geographical coordinates? 18 Nov 2006(DBU)

Town Hall

Needs re-writing, I will if no objections: "Oxford's Town Hall was built by Henry T. Hare, the foundation stone was laid on 6 July 1893 and opened by the future King Edward VII on 12 May 1897" is more definitive than "Oxford's Town Hall was built during the reign of Queen Victoria". I would also like to have "Though Oxford has city status and is a Lord Mayoralty, the seat of the city council is still called by its traditional name of "Town Hall" to read "The site has been the seat of local government since the Guild Hall of 1292 and though Oxford is a city and a Lord Mayoralty, the seat of the city council is still called by its traditional name of "Town Hall". Alf 23:24, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Frideswide

Does anyone have a reasonable source for Christ Church being the site of the Priory Chapel as I can't find an agreement of location from the net? I changed Frideswide because I can't see that it's absolutely factual. I'll resist changing this here until further debate there, I'm quite happy to undo changes if better sourced. Although she's mentioned a few times, we've not said here that she is patron saint of the university; is she not patron saint of city also? Alf 2 July 2005 20:28 (UTC)

The excellent 'Encyclopaedia of Oxford' (Christopher and Edward Hibbert, my copy published 1988 by Papermac) describes her as 'patron saint of the City and the University, about whom little can be said for certain'!

OK thanks for that Ndaisley, will add that in. Alf ^melmac 13:20, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

University Towns

Is it appropriate to include university towns in the United States? I guess im just curious as to what that distinction exactly means in the last paragraph in the opening statements? Any clarification would be nice. Thankszors!--Gephart 21:50, 22 November 2005 (UTC)

I think the point is that these are towns which are dominated by their university, and that's the reason they're twinned with Oxford. I don't know if that applies anywhere in America (indeed I don't know of Oxford is twinned with anywhere in America [2]). Mark¹ 00:38, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

No its not, and I dont think it is fair to say Oxford is dominated by Its universitys. They do have alot of influencs, but so do other industrys.

12th/13th century

(unsigned comment moved from top of talk page)

Sorry to mess this page up, but shouldn't 1201-1300 be referred to as the 13th century?

"The University of Oxford is first mentioned in 12th century records. Oxford's earliest colleges were University College (1249), Balliol (1263) and Merton (1264)."

Will change this to "13th century records." - Anon

I guess the text could be clearer about this. But see http://www.ox.ac.uk/aboutoxford/history.shtml. The fact that the earliest colleges were started in the 13th century, does not mean that Oxford University was not mentioned in records before this. --JoanneB 10:37, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

I see. I'll edit it a bit to make it less ambiguous, hopefully.

- Same anon

Famous Oxford residents

A section on "Famous Oxford residents" has recently been started, but many of those listed are resident in various parts of Oxfordshire, rather than Oxford city itself. If anyone can help to cross-check this that would be a help. May also be worth discussing whether this section is "encyclopedic" enough. mervyn 13:47, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes mervyn I will admit to emitting quiet growling noises when I saw this appear. Like the 'notables' of the university itself, if kept will need close watching. When the start of term is over I might have some time to go digging around for some verification. --Alf ^melmac 14:42, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps we could export it to a list, along with the rest of our dirty laundry? Mark¹ 15:04, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Have removed dubious section - unverified, mostly non-Oxford City and many already mentioned -- have put in a shorter section "Other notable Oxfordians". mervyn 09:58, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I like that edit Mervyn, my only comment is using "Oxfordians" as opposed to "Oxonians". General opinions on that? --Alf ^melmac 10:19, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Sure, I have no problem with "Oxonians". mervyn 11:30, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

The term "Oxonians" usually refers to alumni of the university rather than residents (or former residents) of the city. And it certainly seems incorrect to use it for residents of Oxfordshire as well as Oxford itself. --RichardVeryard 12:56, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

It started out as Oxfordians, but Oxonians sounded better, and I don't think the term is exclusively for University use, but may be wrong. Certainly, it is not being used re residents of Oxfordshire -- it was intended as a section for people (not elsewhere listed) who are City of Oxford born-and-bred, not just residents, and should be a strictly focussed section. --mervyn 13:27, 8 November 2006 (UTC)

I think it should be Oxfordians. I like it better, but those living in Oxfordshire can say Oxonians. From a proud Oxfordian :)--Floandthemash (talk) 20:24, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Schools

It's occurred to me that all of the schools listed under 'Schools' are actually public (ie. not state funded) schools - none of them are state schools. Is there a particular reason for this being the state of affairs? If there isn't, may I add the missing state schools (at least, the largest ones). Lukasa 18:42, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree, state schools should be included. I have added Cherwell School to the list 155.198.63.112 14:40, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Why does this section say that Oxford has so many highly academic schools, yet Oxford has the worst examination results? I think this doesn't make sense, and the 'highly academic' phrase should be removed... Mike 12:52, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

@Mike Well Magdalen and OHS are pretty good schools and why didn't they have Cherwell on it? Stupid huh — Preceding unsigned comment added by Floandthemash (talk • contribs) 20:27, 27 December 2010 (UTC)

Dark side of Oxford

Is it just me, or should something be written about the dark side of Oxford, like the monstrosity that is the 12 or so storey council flat in Wood Farm? I don't see any gowns cycling around Rose Hill or Blackbird Leys. Why not? I know this may sound politically incorrect, but take away the University and you ain't left with much of Oxford, except the parts you never see in the tourist brochures. Degrassifan 22:12, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not just you. However this is completely normal; it's fiendishly difficult to get *any* kind of account of Oxford outside the city and college walls. This is rather surprising, because the townies have a history of stroppiness dating back centuries.

There is a rather good photo-history of East Oxford: I have to hand Cowley and East Oxford, Past and Present by Graham and Waters (ISBN 0-7509-2761-5). But I've failed to find a decent account of the circumstances in which the neighbourhood in which I live was developed as an urban community in victorian times. There's probably something relevant in the central library; but I'm no local historian, and I don't care to do the research myself. MrDemeanour 12:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you should also include the violence and antisocal behavour of Oxford University Students...

Perhaps we should include the violent and antisocial behavior of those people in Oxford who are not students of the University. Or perhaps not. Shinigami27 (talk) 01:08, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, If you take away the Universitys (!!!) you are left with a mid sized City with a thriving manufacturing and construction industry, and a very desirable place to live for people working in London. It is also a very vibrant cultural city, but then I take it from your comment "This is rather surprising, because the townies have a history of stroppiness dating back centuries." that you are an Oxford Uni student (or Ex student).

I am not a past or present member of Oxford Uni. I was born in Oxford, and I live there now, having lived in other places in between. And Oxford townies have a documented history of stroppiness: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Scholastica_riot is an early example. I don't mean "stroppy" in any particularly critical sense - perhaps "independence of thought" would be an appropriate euphemism.

MrDemeanour (talk) 11:52, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Orthodox Church of the Holy Trinity and the Annuciation

This was linked to "Orthodox Church", which is a disambiguation page. I have changed the link to be the whole name of the church, although this creates a redlink. If someone would like it to be linked to a denomination instead of the church's name, please link to an article page about the correct denomination. I can't tell if this is an Eastern Orthodox Church, for instance, or a more specific Orthodox denomination. Thanks! --Disambiguation link repair - You can help! --Iggle 06:53, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Ben's Cookies

To me, the recently added, and gramatically suspect, reference to this business looks less than impartial and rather like advertising. I don't necessarily want to enrage anyone by removing the reference myself, but I did wonder if anyone else had a view on this. JoeKennedy1979 19:30, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

question

What are the locational affects on Oxford as a CBD?

History wording improvement

I am new to editing wikipedia, so please excuse my stepping on any toes. In simply browsing I ran across a bit that I found difficult to follow.

Under History the second paragraph could benefit from a major rewording. I cannot even begin to do it myself (if I had the nerve, being new to this and quite ignorant of the subject) mainly because I do not understand what most of the third sentence is trying to say ("It was strongly fortified ... AND ... AND ... AND ...".)

The following sentence also needs to be broken up or clarified somehow. ("West of the town ... : in the field ...; the great church...; and many fine churches...") Too many clauses, in my view.

I leave it to someone more experienced to determine if this is neccesary, or to point out if I am simply having a lapse of understanding in my reading.

Derekbd 11:44, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

External links

I believe that Oxford travel guide from Wikitravel should be a link on this page. At least then Wikipedia can encourage people that wish to add tourism to do so at Wikitravel. Fastestdogever 19:26, 5 March 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to give this a few more days, and if there are no objections I'll go ahead and add it. - Fastestdogever 03:55, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Fletcher's Guide to Oxford is online. (130-page book by a well-known Oxford don, pix, etc.) 24.148.19.254 09:39, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

Possible Merging/Deletion of Category:Streets in Oxford

Hello. Just dropping by to make you aware of a move by a user who has categorized himself as a 'Mergist Wikipedian' to delete 'Category:Streets in Oxford', so that it may be ultimately merged into a single 'Streets and Squares' Category. If you wish to express an opinion, the place to do it is here. Not sure where else to bring this to the attention of people who may be interested in Oxford, so I'd put a word in here.--Keefer4 | Talk 02:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Photographs

I've just put four photographs of the city taken from Boars Hill up on Commons - normal, short panorama, wide panorama, skyline. Any use for the article? Shimgray | talk | 23:19, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Origin of the name?

I was hoping this article may shed some light on the origin of the name 'Oxford'. Alas, all it mentions is that its descended from 'Oxenaforda'. Where did this original name come from, for example was there once a River Ox? Grunners (talk) 13:51, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Found the answer - "Ford of the Ox" - have added in to article and referenced source. Grunners (talk) 19:29, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Layout

Hello folks,

I've just made some changes to the article to bring it more inline with the WP:UKCITIES project guideline. Much, much more work is needed on this article however, which at present, is in a poor condition. --Jza84 |  Talk  20:51, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Infobox

I've changed the infobox to a settlement. I hope all the information in the box is correct, if not please feel free to add to it.--TwentiethApril1986 (talk) 12:28, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

It looks great! I'd personally put Image:Oxsky.jpg in the infobox as the lead image, but that's based purely on personal tastes and sensibilities. Other than that, that was a long overdue and well needed change! Thanks! --Jza84 |  Talk  12:51, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I did think about that and you're right, it does look better. Should it be used outside of the infobox too?--TwentiethApril1986 (talk) 12:59, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think there's any rule against it, but I'd certainly try to seek an alternative image. That way we're adding more value to article. :) --Jza84 |  Talk  13:02, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I've just kept the skyline photo in the infobox. I don't think it needed to be in the history section. It can always be added later.--TwentiethApril1986 (talk) 13:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Music

Should a section on music from Oxford be made? We have bands like Supergrass, Radiohead and the Foals from the city and they are all pretty big so I think this should be covered.

Should this be listed in the main article or should it have its own? Let me know. --TwentiethApril1986 (talk) 15:25, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The articles on Manchester, Sheffield and Kingston upon Hull each seem to tackle this subject with some objectivity. I think those might be good examples to emulate. :) --Jza84 |  Talk  15:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Wards, neighbourhoods, and suburbs

Why is Abingdon listed in this section? It is a separate town and nothing to do with the City of Oxford. You could just as easily include Witney or Bicester in the list. --80.176.142.11 (talk) 14:59, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikimania

Editors may be interested in the general call for Wikimedians who would be interested in getting involved with an extremely active venture to bring Wikimania to Oxford. All the information about the Oxford bid can be found at meta wiki here. Warofdreams talk 11:30, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

History of Oxford

I came across this stub page - History of Oxford. Obviously the history of the town is already covered in much greater detail on Oxford, so does anyone have any thoughts on what is best to do with the other, redundant page? Delete, leave for future expansion, link from history section, merge (not sure there is much worth merging in)? I was considerng sending it to AFD but honestly am not sure as there is clearly a wealth of history regarding Oxford that could merit a seperate article at some point. Thoughts? Sassf (talk) 17:40, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Magdalen Bridge on May Morning

Under the history section it states that it is a tradition for students to jump off the bridge into the Cherwell. Well, I suppose it has become a kind of tradition, despite the best efforts of the Council and Police to stop them and disrupting the pleasure of the rest of us in the process, but I believe it's only something that has begun in the last 30 years or so. I therefore think this reference is misleading. And anyway, the whole reference is in brackets in a paragraph dealing with an otherwise very different topic (the relationship between Cowley and the University). I suggest the copy within brackets should be deleted. 82.10.105.53 (talk) 12:43, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Templar's Square

The section listing "Templar's Square" - an unremarkable, somewhat dated, shopping mall on the outskirts of the town - as an attraction looks suspiciously like advertising. I think it should be deleted - it is certainly not listed as a tourist attraction in any major tourist guide, nor are tourists in the habit of frequenting it —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.52.1 (talk) 15:10, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

41 namesakes

Someone might like to add to the text Oxford's 41 namesakes on three continents. "London, which has spread to 46 settlements on six continents, is second on the list, followed by Oxford (41 on three continents) and Manchester (36 on two continents). Bristol is fifth, equal to Wellington, with 35." (Jack Malvern. Richmond, in Surrey, is the most widely copied British place name worldwide, timesonline 2008-12-29. The original byline for the article in The Times of the same day was "The 55 corners of foreign fields that will be for ever ... Richmond" (page 9). Cites The Times Universal Atlas of the World.) PBS (talk) 09:49, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Univ Image

I removed the part of the image caption saying Univ was the oldest college. This is disputed between Univ, Merton and Balliol and depends upon the definition of oldest college. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.72.154.9 (talk) 01:13, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Transport

May I suggest that a section is created and included to briefly describe access by public transport (major roads, motorways, rail, and air, and how these may have affected Oxford's professional demography in recent years? See: Malvern, Worcestershire for an example (although this is currently under discussion). Kudpung (talk) 02:00, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Motto

The caption to the achievement [coat-of-arms] states '"Fortis est veritas" "Truth is strong strength"'; however the ribbon on the achievement itself reads "FORTIS AST VERITAS". One of them must be wrong, surely; unfortunately it seems to be the image, which I can't easily amend. See Jenkins, Stephanie (14 February 2008). "Coat of arms of the City of Oxford". Oxford History. http://www.headington.org.uk/oxon/mayors/town_hall/crest.htm. Retrieved 20 July 2009.  --Redrose64 (talk) 13:20, 20 July 2009 (UTC) amended Redrose64 (talk) 12:14, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

There is a mistake in translation of the motto... If the motto is really FORTIS EST VERITAS, it means THE TRUTH IS STRONG, not "truth is strength"; this is due to the fact that "FORTIS" is an adjective, which means "STRONG" and not a noun, which would mean "strength".

The construction of the phrase is tipically latin, and literally it would sound a bit Jedi (Yoda)-like: "STRONG IS THE TRUTH".

I suggest correcting the "motto" section —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.13.172.65 (talk) 11:03, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

This has been debated before, most recently with two edits in June this year (edit 1, edit 2). What you need to do is to find a reputable history of Oxford which gives an authoritative translation, then you may amend the article but most importantly, you must also reference it. --Redrose64 (talk) 13:09, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Oxford United players

I added Dean Saunders to the list, certainly one of the highest profile players to turn out for The U's.Dantilley (talk) 01:43, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but I have removed him again - along with all the other "Notable former players" and also the "Notable former managers". That sort of information does not really belong in an article on Oxford, the city; the proper place is in Oxford United F.C., List of Oxford United F.C. players and List of Oxford United F.C. managers. --Redrose64 (talk) 10:41, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

File:Oxford COA.gif Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Climate Change

The sentence about climate change seems a little useless to me. Where does this "field of thought" come from? Citation is needed here, obviously. Even with citation, does this fact contribute anything of significant value to the article? To me, it just doesn't flow well. I would rather not take it out for fear of stepping on someone's in-progress project, or seeming impulsive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.157.154.163 (talk) 01:18, 9 October 2011 (UTC)