Talk:Persian Jews

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Let's settle the Neutrality Dispute

This talk page has grown quite long and it is hard to sort through and figure out what arguments have been settled and which remain. Currently there is a neutrality dispute tag on the article. Anyone claiming that this article is not neutral please add a short line about the specific section or fact that you are disputing the neutrality of. Please no lengthy arguments at this point just a bulleted list of items that you think are non-neutral. Also Please don't be vague by putting things like the "tone is too pro-Isreali" or "the sources are not balanced"... specific examples please. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Iampayam (talk • contribs) 07:35, 1 December 2006.

I agree, we need examples on why this article is still POV. If none are provided, I'll be removing the tag eventually. Khoikhoi 21:22, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Contradiction-Rabbis

In one place it says there have been no rabbis in Iran since 1994, in another it mentions a rabbi being killed in 1999, and in another cites a rabbi speaking in 2000. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.189.135.87 (talk) 22:03, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

It's actually not a contradiction at all.

In 1994 the Iranian government made an official declaration that there were no rabbis were living in Iran. Then in 1999 one of the many rabbis who actually DID live in Iran at the time was murdered.

I can't say for sure that the murder was motivated by the fact that the rabbi was a Jewish rabbi. (That's just the reason that the killer gave to police.) The Iranian government has made a statement saying that it's impossible that the murderer was motivated by the fact that the victim was a Jewish rabbi for the simple reason that the victim could not possibly have been a Jewish rabbi. Because there aren't any Jewish rabbis in Iran. Because the government said there weren't any in an offical declaration back in 1994.

Yeah, I know.

Was your objection based on a complete disconnect between statements from the government of Iran and reality as anyone understands it? Mardiste (talk) 01:01, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Contradiction

On the one hand, "Jews in Iran are not allowed to communicate with Jewish groups outside of Iran unless the group is opposed to the existence of Israel" (no citation).

On the other hand, "the Iranian government has allowed the Jewish Iranians to visit their family members in Israel" and "Limited cultural contacts are also allowed".

Could this be clarified, please? Perhaps it's as simple as adding "with certain exceptions" to the first assertion. —Ashley Y 10:29, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

I don't see a contradiction - there is a difference between a "contact with Jewish GROUPS" and a "contact with FAMILY MEMBERS".

Bruno --82.32.35.3 21:50, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Jews in Iranian media

There is written:"The anti‑Israel policies of the Iranian government, along with a perception among radical Muslims that all Jewish citizens support the State of Israel, create a hostile atmosphere for the Jewish community. In 2004, many Iranian newspapers noted the one-hundredth anniversary of the publishing of the anti-Semitic forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.[30] Jews often are the target of degrading caricatures in the Iranian press.[citation needed] Jewish leaders reportedly are reluctant to draw attention to official mistreatment of their community due to fear of government reprisal.[30]" I think there should be differences between propaganda against Israel and Zionism in Iran media and representation of Jews. Although the first one make bad sense against Jews in some people but can we call it antisemitism? Iranian media try not to mention Jews or Jewish state and use Zionists and Zionist state.--Sa.vakilian 08:18, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Jewish Muslims

There is written:"some voluntarily, some by force, some due to social pressure, and some in hopes of improving prospects for themselves and their families.[citation needed] Such Jews, or Jewish Muslims, have existed in the region for centuries. Many marry only those like themselves, many have assimilated, many are secular, and many are practicing Muslims who keep (sometimes unknowingly) certain Jewish traditions. Few have fully returned to their Jewish roots, and such 'hidden' Jews in the Iranian diaspora have largely assimilated."

It's too general and not appropriate for encyclopedia. Jews convert to Islam some by x and some by y which includes almost all probability. It should be substitute with more specific phrase. --Sa.vakilian 08:34, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

I removed this part after 10 days. Please help me with writing more specific statement. ; some voluntarily, some by force, some due to social pressure, and some in hopes of improving prospects for themselves and their families.^{[citation needed]} Such Jews, or Jewish Muslims, have existed in the region for centuries. Many marry only those like themselves, many have assimilated, many are secular, and many are practicing Muslims who keep (sometimes unknowingly) certain Jewish traditions. Few have fully returned to their Jewish roots, and such 'hidden' Jews in the Iranian diaspora have largely assimilated.^{[citation needed]}

--Sa.vakilian 04:00, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

See also [1] and talk:HIAS. Andries (talk) 21:03, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Disputed

Sacha Baron Cohen

I added a ^{[citation needed]} tag to Sacha Baron Cohen being Iranian descent. It was removed by user:Rayis, falsely claiming it is covered in the article. Based on most sources, Cohen mother is born in israel of german heritage [2]. The only websites mentioning Iranian descent are the one citing Wikipedia. See: Talk:Sacha Baron Cohen I'll tag it as dubious and Rayis, stop removing it.--Gerash77 04:15, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Hmm my "claim" was because last time I checked his article, it said he was a Persian Jew and had various references to support it. But it looks like it was removed since then. I will look in to it later --Rayis 13:03, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Well if you can find the reliable sources, bring them in. As for my research, I am only seeing unreliable sites saying he is of Persian descent, sites I would not trust as fulfilling WP:RS. --Valley2city^₪‽ 06:19, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

An article on Iranian Jews

http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/aam030507.html

I thought it pretty interesting. 64.231.72.74 12:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.231.72.74 (talk) 12:34, 4 May 2007 (UTC).

famous iran jews

1.zokaolmolk foroghi[nayebolsaltaneh] was originally jewish 2.mirza kalantarkhan shirazi in ghajar period was also jewish. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Spitman (talk • contribs) 22:05, 5 May 2007 (UTC).

Source for section "Discrimination"

The current passage reads:

"Though alcohol is illegal in Iran, a special legal provision allows Jews to make and use wine for Sabbath celebrations, according to an unconfirmed source."

On pg. 212 of the book Persian Mirrors, by Elaine Sciolino, a passage mentions the legal production and consumption of alcohol by non-Muslims:

"...The Armenians, like other non-Muslims, are exempt from the ban on drinking alcohol and are allowed to make vodka and wine for their own personal consumption."

Although this doesn't specifically mention Jews or any specific law regarding alcohol consumption, it may be considered a source for the statement in the passage. If any other wikipedians approve, and have more expertise in inserting references than I do, feel free to put it in.

Citation in Harvard referencing:

(Sciolino 2005, p. 212)

Sciolino, Elaine. (2005). Persian Mirrors. New York: Free Press

Mluo2010 02:53, 27 July 2007 (UTC)

False info

This article has a a couple of false details. There are 20 synagogues and numerous rabbis in iran. Could somebody add the following info in for me. The source is this:

http://www.forusa.org/programs/iran/dec05-4.htm

Fair use rationale for Image:Jews of Iran film.jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 19:22, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Discrimination Contradiction

On one hand: "Like other religious minorities in Iran Jews suffer from discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and housing. According to the U.S. Department of State, Jews may not occupy senior positions in the government or the military and are prevented from serving in the judiciary and security services and from becoming public school heads"

but then a few paragraphs later

"However, in a rather unprecedented move, the sole Jewish member in the Iranian parliament, Maurice Motamed, strongly condemned exhibition of cartoons about the Holocaust that recently took place in Tehran, and he has also written a letter to Iran’s president questioning his denial of the Holocaust, calling it "a very big insult to Jews all around the world."

how can both be true?

Qualiall 64.8.68.116 (talk) 19:25, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

dob

Jews are always welcome in Iran as ever.(talk) 14:30, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Total Jewish Iranian Population is not 600,000 and above

Furthermore, there are little if no Ashkenazi Jewish Iranians. Virtually all Iranian Jews are Mizrahi or Sephardic. I removed that section According to SIAMAK, a Jewish Iranian organization is Los Angeles, there are at least 40,000 Iranian Jews in Los Angeles and 25,000 Iranian Jews in Long Island, New York. Bk963 (talk) 16:13, 27 March 2008 (UTC)Bk963

Plagiarism

The section "Current Status in Iran," beginning with the phrase: "Iran's official government-controlled media often issues anti-Semitic propaganda" and going until the beginning of the next subsection, is a direct copy from this site: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/iranjews.html. Thunderkatz^Ho! 01:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I have removed it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.110.162.141 (talk) 00:14, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted this edit as a copyvio from the same source. The same edit deleted material, which I have restored. —Ashley Y 03:21, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Current Jewish Population of Iran

I did some research on current jewish population figures in Iran, and it really seems most respectable media outlets talk about 25,000. I'm talking about recent articles in the Israeli newspapers Ha'aretz and Yediʿoth Ahronoth, as well as the BBC World Service.

BoogaLouie edited that portion of the article, inserting the following line, which I reverted:

An estimated 10,000[2]-15,000[3] Jews remain in Iran. They live mostly in Tehran, Isfahan (3,000), and Shiraz, according to the world Jewish Library.

This edit is very sloppy. In the first place, it introduces to the article two separate population estimates, in two subsequent paragraphs. Secondly, the 15.000 figure doesn't appear in the citation given ([3]) - it says 25,000 there. And thirdly, it remains unclear what the "world Jewish library" is. Google results are inconclusive, and my university library catalogue doesn't list any such work. I suspect that it's supposed to mean "Jewish Virtual Library" (which, however, is only some website, and itself has the 25,000 figure here: [3]).

I really think the recent Israeli and British news articles that I cited carry more authority than the "Jewish Virtual Library" (which by itself is inconsistent, citing 10,800 on one page and 25.000 on another, and is after all neither a scholarly nor a proper journalistic source). Lodp (talk) 13:47, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

An admittedly biased source, but with more or less first hand information, is the Chabad group which just smuggled (or at least claims to have) matzoh from [the] Ukraine to Iran for the Passover holiday. The news article states that "Members of the Chabad organization smuggled a huge quantity of matzot into Iran last week in order to enable local Jews in the Islamic Republic to celebrate the Passover according to tradition."

"Some 20,000 Jews currently live in Iran. The authorities allow them freedom to practice their religion, but forbid the import of Israel-made products to the country, an act that could cost a person three years imprisonment or the revoking of his passport for five years." [4]

While they probably didn't get an exact census of the people they were delivering to, I'd guess that they at least got the number reasonably correct. So 20,000 seems to be the way to go.

wiki-ny-2007 (talk) 14:15, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Minor Edit Needed, And Other Things

Under the history, in the section about the Jews of Iran under the Islamic Republic (1979 and after), there is the following statement:

"As Haroun Yashyaei, a film producer and former chairman of the Central Jewish Community in Iran has quoted[32]: 'Khomeini didn't mix up our community with Israel and Zionism - he saw us as Iranians' "

I won't edit this, first because I'm not one of the page keepers, but secondly because I don't know whether there is something I'm missing, but I'm wondering about the wording here. If he "has quoted", then who was quoted? Don't you actually mean "As Haroun Yashyaei ... has stated..."? In other words, did the quote come from Haroun Yashyaei, or from someone else?

Wikipedia's Free Dictionary states that the verb quote means "To repeat or copy the words of (another), usually with acknowledgment of the source". So I'm pretty sure you can't quote yourself.

Also, if I could weigh in on the discussion above about the sources for the current population of Jews in Iran, it occurs to me that The Jewish Virtual Library may have somewhat of a bias against Iran. There is a lot of animosity right now between Israel (and therefore many Jews) and Iran. Wouldn't a source such as this want to minimize Iran's Jewish population to make it look less significant? Just wondering...

--Mrs rockefeller (talk) 14:29, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

U.S. State Department

Disinformation from U.S. Government on Iran is not to be taken seriously. It goes without saying that the U.S. Government is incapable of publishing a balanced study of conditions in Iran. This is an encyclopedia, not a mouthpiece for Washington. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.151.38.178 (talk) 21:14, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

I agree that it is a somewhat dubious source for this article because of the hostile attitude of the US regarding Iran. It may be fine for most other article. Andries (talk) 17:56, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

And yet there are numerous sources from Iranian websites, which you have expressed no trouble citing - as if the Iranian media can be trusted to accurately report the condition of Jews in their borders.24.231.109.233 (talk) 09:05, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Exactly 24.231.109.233, there are a numerous references from Iranian(state controlled) media in this article. Each one is being used to back up anti-American and anti-Israel bias.WackoJackO 08:55, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

And, the fact that they can not run for office (outside the 1 reserved majles seat), and other such limits are just "imperialists making tension" - never addressed. Listen, Iranian Jews don't have it as bad as in other Muslim countries, to be sure, but my goodness, this was the rosiest, most one-sided account I've read outside of official IRI propaganda. The spin alone was itself dubious. Great, mention positive aspects; but don't intentionally omit or evade others. This section should be flagged for POV status in at least tone if not merely content. One needn't rely only on the US State Department, which was probably a bad choice to cite or not to augment with other sources, at least. 71.228.159.184 (talk) 14:20, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

19th c. redundant material

This needs editing - in an overview it discusses discrimination against Jews for various reasons, then has lengthy quotes by observers and travelers, some of which say the same thing (i.e., Jews weren't supposed to go out in the rain), as well as detailed accountings of deaths in one place or another. This seems like too much detail - terrible, true, but not every event of killing 12 people has to be listed.--Parkwells (talk) 19:47, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Terms unclear

When the article mentions large communities of Persian Jews in US and Israel, what period of immigration are they referring to? 20th century? It would be useful to have terms better defined.--Parkwells (talk) 19:49, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

History

Since this is an encyclopedia and not a work of Biblical history, it might be better to have historians and third-party valid sources rather than over-reliance on exclusively Biblical references. Yes, I understand that much research has been done to try to determine what parts of the Bible and Tanakh have historical validity, but that's not the point of this article.--Parkwells (talk) 20:45, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The Biblical references should only be used when referring to specific passages, etc. They should not be used as an actual history source.WackoJackO 08:21, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

fix the following on this wikipage

"It has been reported that Jews in Iran are proud of their heritage??. Thus, they have not settled in Israel despite being encouraged by some groups. [58]" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.80.104.39 (talk) 06:32, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Persian Jews are different with Iranian Jews

Persian Jews are those who speak persian in farsi speaker lands ,Iranian Jews means Jews who lives in Iran which Includes Kurdish Jews and formerly Bukhuris and Juhuris Jews. User:Ari777ilUser talk:Ari777ilארי 8:22, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

Fix awkward sentence please

"Maurice Motamed in recent years, the Iranian government allows the Jewish Iranians to visit their family members in Israel and that the government has also allowed those Iranians living in Israel to return to Iran for a visit. [18]"

Just because "Maurice Motomed in recent years," is a sentence fragment, it does not mean it can glom onto the nearest thing and make sense. Please fix, I don't know what he did. 64.142.38.174 (talk) 05:55, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

'Iranians in Israel'

• Merge - unnecessary fork with redundant info that is fine in this article. --Shuki (talk) 22:00, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Jewish education in Iran

I've slapped an NPOV tag on that section, as all the content appears to come from one page on the US State Department website. A bastion of neutrality, of all places :-) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.144.85.106 (talk) 18:34, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Judaism in Persia going back to 1948 b.c.e????

Is there a citation that supports this claim? I noticed it in the opening narrative, but when you read on down in the history section it doesn't start or refer to that period at all. --173.60.151.243 (talk) 21:09, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

It's only natural that the history section doesn't start there, given that Judaism didn't even exist yet back then... TFighterPilot (talk) 07:22, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Saed Emami

I removed Saed Emami from the list of Persian Jews because as another editor pointed out several months ago, there is no evidence that he was actually Jewish and sources indicating that he was Jewish seem to all come from hardline conservative Iranian publications that lack credibility. His alleged Jewish background can properly be discussed on his own page rather than on the list provided on the Persian Jews page. Boder111 (talk) 05:49, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Content duplication with History of the Jews in Iran

There appears to be substantial content duplication between this article and History of the Jews in Iran.

This should probably be addressed by either (i) merging the two articles into one; or (ii) reducing the history section here to a very short summary, with a {{main}} tag directing readers to the full history article.

But having two parallel articles with the essentially the same material (ie a content fork) is not good for maintainability; and gives an impression of utter disorganisation to our readers. Jheald (talk) 17:28, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

How many synagagogues?

The article asserts, in different places:

1. Today Tehran has 11 functioning synagogues
2. Tehran has over 20 synagogues
3. At present there are 25 synagogues in Iran.

At least one of these is not correct. --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 17:47, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Last names

This article mentions Kalimi as a term used in Iran for Jews. It should also say that Kalimi was attached to the ends of the last names of many Persian Jews. Many families have dropped the kalimi from their names, but others have kept it. I know this was at least done in Kashan and Isfahan (where my mother and father are from). I know this from personal and family experience, but I could not find anything on wikipedia and I had trouble finding anything anywhere else. What I did find was an article on the Encyclopaedia Iranica (http://iranica.com/articles/kalimi-the-name-given-to-the-jews-of-iran) which says that "After the creation of the General Registry Office (Edāra-ye ṯabt-e aḥwāl) in 1924, Jews were apparently required to register their religious affiliation in their ID cards as kalimi meaning Jewish." The article later explains that "the registration of the name kalimi in the Jewish ID cards was not required by any law and that such registration depended upon the personal and hence arbitrary decision of the officer concerned." This is pretty significant to Persian Jews and deserves some mention. Hbomberman (talk) 20:47, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

POV in section Islamic Republic (1979-present)

Section completely fails to mention any issues that Jews in Iran face in the present. By reading the article the reader has the impression that there is no anti-semitism in Iran and the government treats Jews as fairly as Muslims and blames the mass immigrations to the US and Israel on "Zionists". There is nothing about the many instances where Jews have been imprisoned on charges of "Zionist spying" (notably in 1999 when 13 Jews were jailed and spent years awaiting a kangaroo trial) as well as government sponsored antisemitism such as Holocaust denial and publications of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Data from the Jews section of the Freedom of Religion in Iran article should be assimilated into here. Other references can be taken from the Jewish Virtual Library and books on Jews in the present day Middle East. [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yserbius (talk • contribs) 17:00, 11 January 2012 (UTC)