Talk:Persian people

Edit request from , 24 November 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Please change "Besides modern Iran/Persia, ethnic Persians are also found in Central Asia (Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan) and are assholes how listens loud techo music This should be deleted because it is not true. Tajiks are (farsiwans), Persian speaking not persian genetically. Just like south americans who speak spanish but are not spaniards. <ref>source: http://www.afghan-network.net/Ethnic-Groups/tajiks.html</ref>

12bobby1234 (talk) 03:02, 24 November 2011 (UTC)

Does not appear to be a reliable source. Take it up on WP:RSN.  Chzz  ►  21:42, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

N Not done

Why is the "Famous Persian people" bar removed?

Almost all peoples have such a bar. Look at "German People" forexample.

If noone fixes it in the next 2-3 weeks, I will find a way to readd it.

--Arsaces (talk) 14:19, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

There is a genetic test section in other groups of people such as Uzbeks and Turkmens, why don't you guys include a genetic results section? You can put the R1a results, which clearly shows that these so called "persians" of Iran are the conquered semitic Elamites of old time, who are just Dari speakers? This whole Iranic nonsense will collapse within a decade due to genetic results. You iranians have always been, are and will always remain the Elamites, semitic people of Mesopotamia, who doesn't even have their own language, and speak the Dari of Afghanistan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.178.179.154 (talk) 06:23, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

1. I am Norwegian, not Persian. 2. Stop coming with nonsense and try to keep this discussion on topic. 3. Iranians, Tajiks etc. are all Persian people. Tajiks are usually called East Persians while People from Iran are called West-Persians. 4. I am gonna add a "Famous people bar" when I have time. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Arsaces (talk • contribs) 13:50, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Question about fact checking

(Moved from User talk:SilkTork)

Is there any way to candidate an article for fact checking? I know one article who’s central tenants are based on original research and unverifiable claims. It is the article about the Persian people that in my view has been totally distorted for political purposes.

The following claims are bogus and is in contradiction with several reliable sources and third party publications Original research and unverifiable claim 1

"Besides modern Iran/Persia, ethnic Persians are also found in Central Asia (Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan) and are usually called "Tajiks" and "Farsiwans"

Original research and unverifiable claim 2 that can easily be proven wrong by linking to official Iranian government websites

While a categorization of a 'Persian' ethnic group persists in the West, Persians have generally been a pan-national group often comprising regional people who often refer to themselves as 'Persians' and have also often used the term "Iranian" (in the ethnic-cultural sense). As a pan-national group, defining Persians as an ethnic group, at least in terms used in the West, is not inclusive since the ethnonym "Persian" includes several Iranian people including the speakers of Modern Persian.

I don't think that Wikipedia should be used as a tool of cultural genocide using original research and unverifiable claims. Truthtellers78 (talk) 22:00, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) You can add {{fact}} (including the curly brackets) after the quote, which will add a request for a reference.

You can post to the talk page of the article and hope that somebody takes interest in your concerns.

You can remove the dubious facts from the article yourself, but be sure to add an edit summary saying why you're removing them; something along the lines of "unsourced and dubious". After you remove it, you might also want to post about the removal to the talk page as a belt and braces approach. --GraemeL ^(talk) 22:16, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for raising this issue Truthtellers. GraemeL is right - putting a {{fact}} tag just after the disputed material is the normal way, and raising the matter on the talkpage is also good. Removing the material is also an option, but as Graeme indicates, this may be contentious. I would suggest only removing material after you have first checked for sources yourself. I took a quick look and easily found these sources to support the first statement: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. The second claim is a little more difficult to check as the claim is more complex, however I found these: [6], [7], [8], which indicate that the nature of Iranian and Persian identity and ethnicity is a matter of valid scholarly discussion. The second claim would need more research, and some balancing statements, as well as sourcing, though simply removing it would be inappropriate. I hope that helps. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 08:57, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I've just looked at the article in question, and the material you quoted came from the lead - however, the material was sourced - either in the lead itself or in the main body of the article. I would agree, though, that the sourcing could be improved. I have added one cite, and I moved some material from the lead to the main body. There is further work to be done. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:20, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I would like to thank you for taking time to do your duo diligence; I have looked at your sources and think that none of them support any of the quotes. You have referred to several books about the central Asian states and nowhere have I found support for the claim in the first quotes which is that people who speak Persian are 'ethnic Persian' or automatically a part of the Persian people. Support can be found that speakers of Persian language are found in those areas but it doesn't prove the claim that they are ethnic Persian. Speaking a language is often not enough to be considered a part of any ethnic group. You are welcome to make a direct quote from any of your sources and we can discuss it.

Let me explain something. Persian language or "Farsi" is a language with various dialects [Tajik language] that is being spoken in central Asian (the former territory of the Persian empires) whereas Persian people or فارسیc is a distinct non - ethnolinguistic ethnic group from the country of Iran. This can be compared with the French language that is spoken in many parts of the former French colonies such as of Africa, List of countries where French is an official language, whereas French people is a distinct European ethnic group from France. Speaking a language or a dialect of a language doesn't make you a part of an ethnic group. I'm writing in English right not, but that doesn't make me an Englishman.

The definition of ethnicity according to Wikipedia is as follows

An ethnic group (or ethnicity) is a group of people whose members identify with each other, through a common heritage, often consisting of a common language, a common culture (often including a shared religion) and/or an ideology that stresses common ancestry or endogamy.

The people defined as Tajiks, Hazara and Uzbeks doesn't fit the criteria for being considered as a part of the Persian people. Many of them who are in Iran as refugees are considered as non-Persian and non-Iranian by the native population. These ethnic groups also have their own Wikipedia articles that refute the claim that they are a part of the Persian but give plenty of explanations of their own ethnic roots how they historically have been influenced of Persian language and culture. The article in its current form defines everybody who speak the language Farsi as belonging to the Persians which is ridicules and confusing.

The CIA factbook which is a very reliable source defines the follow ethnic groups in Iran:

Persian 61%, Azeri 16%, Kurd 10%, Lur 6%, Baloch 2%, Arab 2%, Turkmen and Turkic tribes 2%, other 1% (2008 est.)

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ir.html

Afghanistan: Pashtun 42%, Tajik 27%, Hazara 9%, Uzbek 9%, Aimak 4%, Turkmen 3%, Baloch 2%, other 4%

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/af.html

We can seen that Persians are a distinct ethnic group differentiated from both Tajiks, Uzbeks and Hazaras. Why would the CIA fact book make this artificial distinction of everybody who spoke Persian belonged to the same ethnic group? I can make references to Iranian sources if needed.

The only source presented in the article which in some way relates to the second quotes is the following

Iran and the Caucasus, vol. 9/1: 37-42. Quote:"Furthermore, some scholars, mechanically identifying the speakers of Persian as a distinct ethnic unit (the ‘Persians’), exclude those Iranians who speak dialects of Persian, or other Iranian dialects closely related to Persian.3 On the other hand, the Persian-speaking non-Iranian ethnic groups (such as, for instance, Arabs) are numbered as Persians. However, it is obvious that this approach to ethnicity in Iran is misleading, as historically all ethnic groups in Iran, including the ‘Persians’, irrespective of their origin, language, or religion were always referred to, collectively, as Iranians (Irani)."

How should we interpret this? Firstly the source supports the notion of a distinct Persian ethnicity that excludes other groups who speak the same language, secondly is says that the term "Iranian" is an umbrella term referring to all of Iran's ethnic groups. It doesn't mean that the Persian people are not a distinct ethnic group or that they don't exist just because”Iranian" is an umbrella term for various ethnic groups in Iran. Example: All ethnic groups in the UK can be called "British' but that doesn't mean that it is wrong or misleading to speak about a English people, or a Welsh people.

The article has been problematic and a source of edit warring and contention for a long time, it was previously flagged for about than one year (look at the history) before somebody removed the tags and it was semi-protected without any of the issues being resolvedTruthtellers78 (talk) 19:21, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

• Please go back and read the sources. Google Books doesn't allow me to cut and paste, and I think you should at least make the effort of reading the sources I found rather than asking me to laboriously copy out the material for you. If you read those sources you'll note they indicate that Tajiks trace their history back to Persia, and consider themselves Persian. Your initial post here was that there was unsourced material in an article - but it turns out that the material is sourced, and that what the material says can be supported by further sources. And now you are attempting to interpret what a source is saying, which is not our purpose at all. We are not writing essays and giving our personal opinions - we are summarising verifiable facts and verifiable opinions of experts. It matters not that we agree with those opinions. We are not taking sides in a debate. I suspect you are too close to the topic and are over-thinking the issue. I often find it better to edit articles on subjects which I don't have a close interest or opinion. I can be more balanced and factual. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 20:58, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

let’s go back to the contentious first quote

"Besides modern Iran/Persia, ethnic Persians are also found in Central Asia (Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan) and are usually called "Tajiks" and "Farsiwans"

It is making one claim and a second claim & conclusion that build upon the first claim. The first implied claim is that Persian peopleare defined as an supranational ethno-linguistic group that can include any ethnic group who speak the language, the second is that there are Persian speaking people known as [Tajiks]] in central Asia and that they automatically can be included in the Persian ethnicity.

I have found no publication that supports the first implied claim, and therefore the second claim is null and void. Tell me which pages of your sources claim that Persians are a supranational ethno-linguistic group that can include any people who speak Persian language. I don't think that ANY ethnic group in the world can be defined by the use of a common language alone. There are a lot of ethnic groups who are very closely related racially, culturally, linguistically but still are distinctly different. A good example of this is the Scandinavian people nobody claims that Swedes and Danes are the same people, although they are very similar in many ways, they both know the differences and wish to keep separate identities, I think that a Swede would become very angry if his distinctiveness were violated in Wikipedia.

I agree that your sources provide plenty of evidence that Persian speaking peoples known as Tajiks, Hazara etcetera live in central Asia and that they are called names such as Farsiwans but that bears no relevance for this discussion.

The Tajiks are a people with a mixed heritage, some of their ethnic and cultural heritage is indeed Persians but they have been transformed into a new distinct ethnicity through the process of Ethnogenesis, although they still share the same language and cultural traits with Persian people. I'm sure that they can trace back their roots to the Persian empires, many people can as "Persia" is 3000 years old, but We can't live in the Past. Ethnicity is a two way process, it is like a marriage where both parties have to say "YES", one party is not enough. We don't know how many Tajiks consider themselves as belonging to the Persian people and how many consider themselves distincly different, any sources on this? Any sources on what the Persians (from Iran) think of this?

Tājik' (Persian: تاجيک; UniPers: Tâjik; Tajik: Тоҷик) is a term generally applied to Persian language speakers of primarily East Iranic (mixed Sogdian, Khorezmian, Bactrian, Tokharian and Parthian)[1] origin living in Central Asia. The traditional Tajik homelands are in present-day Afghanistan, Tajikistan, and southern Uzbekistan. [1] Krader, L. 1963. Formations of the Peoples. Indiana Uralic and Altaic Series v. 26- Peoples of Central Asia: 54-57, Hirth, F. 1917. The story of Chang K'ien, China's pioneer in Western Asia. Journal of the American Oriental Society. v. 37, no.2: 89-152; Shiratori, K. 1902. Über den Wu-sun-Stamm in Centralasien, 103-140.

The Tajiks are probably the oldest group in central Asia, descending from eastern Iranian Bactrians and Sogdians. In the seventh century, the Sassanids( See Persian Sassanids) were conquered by the invading Arabs, and many Western Iranian speaking, or Persian speaking peoples fled to Central Asia and mixed with older Eastern and Western Iranian speaking populations. Most experts consider this blend of ancient Iranians with the flood of Western Iranian refugees to be the foundation of the contemporary Tajik People. Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Asia and Oceania, Volym 1 Barbara A. West, page 770. http://books.google.se/books?id=pCiNqFj3MQsC&pg=PA770&dq=Tajik+people&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=xDzuTtL4FcrZ4QT97NDmCA&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Tajik%20people&f=false

And Why should there be a separate article about Tajik people if they are the same as Persian people, makes no sense at all.

finally the language and diction of the whole article is mushy and confusing and it if very hard to comprehend the nucleus because of all unrelated content and political manipulation, such as issues relating to language, rugs, and close related ethnic groups. I advise you to ready some of the discussion relating to the article and you will understand how politicized it really is Truthtellers78 (talk) 16:12, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

• I don't think I can help you further. The sources support what the article says, in that Tajiks trace their history back to Persia, and consider themselves Persian. I understand that you personally don't agree with this, but we go by what the sources say. If you have some reliable sources that contest that the Tajiks have a Persian heritage, then that would be worth including in the article - but we cannot, even then, remove material which is so widely supported in sources. As for having an article on Tajik people as well as Persian people - well, that's the nature of cultures and ethnicity. It's rarely as simple or pure as some would like. I am British and Welsh, as I was born and raised in Wales, which is part of Britain. My heritage is also Irish (on my mother's side) and Portuguese (on my father's side), and because of my heritage and birthplace I consider myself Celtic. I wouldn't be happy if someone told me I couldn't be Welsh because I'm British, or I couldn't be British because I am Portuguese. Ethnicity is complex. But if someone has a connection with a culture and feels they are part of that culture, then generally they are considered part of that Ethnic group. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 00:48, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

You have presented no sources that support the claims that contemporary [Tajiks]] are considered the same people as [Persian people]] by any scholar, nor have you been able to present any source that claims that the Persian people are an ethno-lingustic group of people, defined only by a common language (almost no ethnic group can be defined by language alone). I've ask you several times to name the book and the pages that support this claim but have not recieved any answer. There is no question about the fact that contemporary Tajiks have some Persian ancestery and share cultural and lingustic traits with the Persian people. This qualifies them as an Iranian people as stated by my two sources. I understand and respect your decision not to discuss this issue further. I think that the root of this problem is political corectness, the Persian identity inside Iran has been hard suppressed for a long time to make minorities feel welcome and therfore little is written about it by western scholars and almost no resarch has been conducted. Truthtellers78 (talk) 17:04, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

To continue on from what others have said

This article is clearly biased. Most likely edited by afghans or kurds who have hatred towards Persians. Of course the tajiks or afghans should not be taken in this artcile as Persian. Persian is the synonym for Iranian and will always remain so. The ethnic group itself is from the Pars province of Iran. And no the Tajiks are not Persian. they are a mixed group of people, half turkish/mongol and half Iranic.

SomeGuy1122 (talk) 03:28, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Tajiks are East-Persians. Iranies like to think of themselfs as the only Persians, yet that is of course wrong. Btw, if Tajiks are not Persians, I suggest you remove famous East-Persians(Tajiks) from the "Famous Persian people" bar..

Avicenna, Biruni, Ferdowsi and Rumi forexample were East-Persians (Tajiks.)

--Arsaces (talk) 11:58, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

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pakistanis as persian people(estranged)

the subcontinent of India contains brown people who are identified as south/north Indians. however, pakistanis 99% sunni muslims looks different and almost 70% of pakistanis looks similar to persian people. the few punjabi/sindhi people have the Indian connection(genetic) is now very less. current pakistan was a persian territory(invaded or not). so, include pakistanis as Persians. pashtuns,rajputs,balouch and most others have iranian/persian heritage. also, many historians agrees pakistan is part of middle east and not south Asia. South Asian/Indian Subcontinent countries like Srilanka,India,Nepal,Bhutan,Maldives,Bangladesh ethnically are vastly differing from pakistanis. indeed, pakistan and afghan was extended persian territory. acknowledge this. Thanks.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.35.241 (talk • contribs) 16:33, 24 February 2012 (UTC)