Talk:Phoneme

in general

I am glad to see universal agreement that this page ( phoneme ) is a disaster area. Here are a few comments on the discussion:(1) That the phoneme is an obsolete concept is POV and, while it should be acknowledged that some people have such an opinion, should not be otherwise mentioned (2) The phoneme is not part of phonology as phonology is currently understood. (3) The phoneme is a tool of language recording, orthography and communication (4) Language do not have unique phonemic systems ("there are nine and ninety ways of ... ") (5) the fundamental reason for phonemics is the minimal pair (trio, etc.) and a phoneme system is an abstraction away from a data base of minimal pairs (by that I mean such things as writing syllable-initial 't' with the same symbol as syllable-final 't') and can be done in many different ways (6) Writing was invented three times ( Sumer, China and Meso-America ) but only one of these traditions developed phonemes. Phonemes are not inevitable. But they are a very useful tool. DKleinecke (talk) 04:54, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

I think you need to clarify on #2 and #4. #5 sounds wrong. #6 is fallacious (the writing system tradition itself didn't develop phonemes). — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 06:33, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

It's still a disaster area, but no end in sight. I disagree with point one. If it's a concept that is supposed to be central to phonology, by most phonologists don't believe in it, that's an issue that goes beyond POV. I agree with the original comment, though, that the phoneme is quite likely an artefact of developing sub-syllabic writing systems. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 133.7.7.19 (talk) 11:49, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, there's a laughable notion. +Angr 15:28, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Maybe I'm missing something, but what exactly is "laughable" about the above discussion?201.37.75.85 (talk) 18:30, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

The idea that "the phoneme is quite likely an artefact of developing sub-syllabic writing systems". If there's any causal relationship between the two at all, then the phoneme is the cause and the sub-syllabic writing system is the result (since language developed millennia before writing systems). +Angr 21:26, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, I still fail to see what was laughable. Not all linguists accept the existence of the phoneme as defined in this article. In fact, I'd say that probably MOST phonologists don't but into it, but still use the phoneme as a convenient working principle (even though many recent theories, both functionalist and generative, including OT, can do without the phoneme pretty well). And I understand what people claiming it is an artifact of certain writing systems are coming from. First, we have theoretical discussions of things like "letters changing their sound according to their position" since Hindu and Greek grammarians, and the modern idea of the phoneme (just like the idea of the morpheme) certainly draws a lot from those traditions. Secondly, much of the literature on phonemic awareness actually supports the 'artifact' thesis. Anyway, the phoneme is a hypothesis, not an objective and obvious fact. And if the concept is wrong, if we do not store that sort of abstract representation in our minds, then it can't be the "cause" of anything.201.37.75.85 (talk) 22:50, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Certainly why the concept of phoneme doesn't incorporate well into models of language perception ought to be discussed. This is what, in part, ought to make it obsolete in linguistics, but modern academic linguistics still has a 'structuralist' hangover, where language as a 'system' subsists in some Platonic realm somewhere. As for the idea that phonemes represent 'inter-changeable' sounds, this too is not supported by recent empirical research that did just that--cut and splice captures of 'allophones'. What native speakers perceived were incomprehensible things. At best the phoneme is a nice fiction to discuss language formalistically at a sub-lexical level, without getting bogged down in phonetic detail (without having to acknowledge that we still don't know what is actually invariant at a sub-lexical level). One of many such fictions in linguistics. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 133.7.7.19 (talk) 10:47, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. But would you happen to have refs or links for that recent empirical research? I'd be interested. It would be useful for the article as well, of course.201.37.75.85 (talk) 14:02, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

It is of no importance for this article if some linguistic theories discard the phoneme in favour of other descriptions of language. This article should describe the phoneme as it is (was) defined and used by theories that accept it. With at most a remark that acceptance is not universal anymore. Furthermore it is still exetensively uswed in langage teaching. −Woodstone (talk) 17:17, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but you're wrong on a number of points. What do you mean "of no importance"? If the hypothesis is questioned, then criticism should be mentioned. If many contemporary theories ignore it, then that should be mentioned as well. And by the way, acceptance was <never> universal. Also, its widespread usage in language teaching is recognized by just about everyone, but what does that have to do with the necessity or validity of the hypothesis?201.37.75.85 (talk) 18:07, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

But he's right on one major point. We need sources for all of this. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 19:55, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

The article erroneously states: The reason why these different sounds are nonetheless considered to belong to the same phoneme in English is that if an English-speaker used one instead of the other, the meaning of the word would not change: saying [kʰ] in skill might sound odd, but the word would still be recognized.

Modern research on speech perception shows that it usually results in an incomprehensible item, so this idea of interchangeability is a forlorn one. But it's obvious that the culprits responsible for this totally crap article couldn't give a toss, right? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 133.7.7.240 (talk) 12:02, 8 June 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, not sure where to put this as first time adding something to Wikipedia. The Korean example sounds really confusing: /tʰata/ is pronounced [tʰada], for example. That is, when they hear this one word, Korean speakers perceive the same sound in both the beginning and middle of the word, whereas an English speaker would perceive different sounds in these two locations" The bold makes it sound like a Korean speaker would perceive the aspirated t (the sound at the beginning of the word) and the unaspirated stop (the sound in the middle of the word) as the same. They would not, as aspiration is phonemic in Korean, though voicing isn't. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shychigirl (talk • contribs) 15:45, 28 September 2011 (UTC)

Use of study of phonemes for trying to re-construct the history of Language

Quentin D. Atkinson. “Phonemic Diversity Supports a Serial Founder Effect Model of Language Expansion from Africa,” Science, April 15, 2011. DOI:10.1126/science.1199295. This article is making a lot of ripples. 211.225.30.91 (talk) 04:51, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

However, it would probably be more relevant for Linguistic typology and articles on early human migrations... AnonMoos (talk) 07:29, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't know. I think people hearing vaguely about this would probably never think of "Linguistic typology" as a place to look for it. As for articles on early migrations, what are they called? Maybe just a brief reference to the work here, with a link to what-ever article the topic more closely fits into would be the best thing to do.211.225.30.91 (talk) 00:21, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

It's a fact that the study isn't really about the basic concept of "phoneme" itself, but instead uses phonemes as a tool to conduct a study in another subject area. As for migration articles, start with Early human migrations... AnonMoos (talk) 02:06, 17 April 2011 (UTC)

<!n!> I cannot get over the preceding banter here. I almost wanted to read it twice just to try and figure out what college, and books that others have written, that you've read and taken a test on to become so vast as you all are. This page, like any dictionary; should be the definition of the word. "feelings", should all be omitted. Define the word. State the "Possible" scale of use, or the need for it. State history. State other terms that reference this field.