Talk:Pope

The Pope or A Pope?

I think the title of the article should be changed. It should either be 'The Catholic Pope' or 'A Pope' The reason is that there is more than one pope and the current description favours the Catholic religion over the Discordian one. The Discordians also have popes as part of their church's hierarchy —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.155.179.9 (talk) 14:04, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

No need to change the title. It does not mean there is only one. Just include these facts in the article.--Charles (talk) 18:33, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Not only that, but having "Pope" go here instead of to Pope (disambiguation) is biased against Coptic Christianity. "Pope of the Roman Catholic Church" would be a neutral title. 68.110.207.33 (talk) 21:25, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

We have been through that already. See WP:PRIMARYTOPIC Gugganij (talk) 22:12, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

As Wikipedia is a decade old, "we" have been through just about everything already. As an argument for the status quo, that's a complete non sequitur. And seeing as how there are no absolute rules on primary topics, it would be better to err on the side of avoiding the appearance of religious bias. 68.110.207.33 (talk) 18:44, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

I strongly agree that this is biased towards Catholic church, since there are other religions that have pope, too. Pope should lead to disambuguation, not here, and this should be called Catholic Pope or something like that. I believe that wikipedia should not prefer any religion, and that the fact that Catholic pope was historically first or is most well known is not important. It's similar to if "Church" led to Catholic Church article. I also think that the concept of Discordian Pope should be at least mentioned in "Other Uses" section. --88.100.98.122 (talk) 16:46, 22 November 2011 (UTC)

Formed 33AD?

This article states that the possition of Pope was formed in 33AD, How on earth is that supposed to be possible? Being the head of the catholic church, which was founded by constantine through the Council of Nicaea in 325, How could the possition predate the church itself? Just because the catholics CLAIM a buch of people from prior to the churches formation as popes, doesn't change the fact they weren't. This article is too subjective, too much bias for catholicism. It's formatted to make it seem like the catholic church is the true christian church, founded by peter himself. It's Pathetic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.185.8.237 (talk) 03:18, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

The problem is not the date of 33 A.D., but rather the idea that Constantine created the Catholic Church. I hear it a lot, but it is gibberish. There is absolutely no historical documentation to support or imply in any way that Constantine created the Catholic Church. In contrast, there is a long and historically well documented list of popes going back to far before Constantine was ever born. The only real options for date of creation of the position of the pope would be either approximately 33A.D. - when Peter, considered by the CC to be the first pope, kind of took over after Jesus ascended to heaven, or "by 110 A.D.", the earliest historical mention of the Catholic Church by name, or 3rd, the first mention of the position of pope. I'm not sure when that is, but it's before 110 A.D. Either way, all of the options are far before the time of Constantine.Farsight001 (talk) 04:19, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Prior to constantine all the churches were independant, in no way united. He is the one who united them via their creeds, and the name "catholic". The possition of pope did not exist untill the founding of the catholic church, thus the time of contantine. The list of popes going back before him were posthumously declaired pope. 210.185.7.61 (talk) 09:35, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

You can repeat yourself all you want. We have the historical documents and the experts. We win, game over, you are, quite simply, wrong.Farsight001 (talk) 10:09, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

And you can throw around blunt statements all you want. Doesn't change historical fact.210.185.7.61 (talk) 11:59, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

What a wonderfully scathing comeback.Farsight001 (talk) 21:14, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Farsight is entirely in the right here. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 21:05, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

The problem with this article is that it is subtly biased in favor of the Roman Catholic Church, and, as such, violates Wikipedia policies. To claim that (unnamed) "historians" consider Peter to be the first pope suggests that all historians agree to this claim, which they (I among them) do not. It is anachronistic (and dishonest) to suggest otherwise. The fact that the papacy does not emerge until at least the fourth, if not the fifth century, has less to do with Constantine and more to do with the nature of the office and the claims of the bishops of Rome to supremacy, a position rejected from the beginning by most Orthodox Christians and later by most Protestants. The term "papa" used as a sign of respect for early leaders of the church may be older, but when we use the term "pope" most moderns understand this to refer to the Bishop of Rome as supreme leader of the world's Christians, which, as I pointed out above, is simply not and has not been accepted from since the first time those claims were made. Paul certainly did not consider himself subject to Peter, nor did Peter behave as a "pope" toward Paul and the other apostles; rather, they consulted one another collegially, which is the position taken by most Orthodox and Protestant Christians, and reflected in the writings of the New Testament.Wrstewart (talk) 23:24, 20 September 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wrstewart (talk • contribs) 23:17, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

In what place, exactly, does it claim unnamed historians to consider Peter to be the first pope? It claims the opposite, actually - some unnamed historians do NOT believe that he was the first pope. Then it goes on to mention some ancient Church leaders by name and that they considered Peter the first pope. If you really want the ambiguity of unnamed historians removed, then that actually means removing the perspective you are promoting. So I really fail to see any merit in what you are saying.Farsight001 (talk)

The entire problem is the term pope is not a biblical term the very idea of the office cuts against the commands of CHrist, therefore, taking the stand that all these leaders before the founding of the first papacy by whom ever it was is biased! There is no question about that! Also that rome is the center of the church cannot be proven. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyle.Mullaney (talk • contribs) 17:52, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

The idea that it is not biblical or that it is against the commands of Christ is entirely your personal opinion, and wikipedia is not a place for our opinions. Furthermore, it doesn't even remotely matter where the center of the church is. For some 70 years during the Avingnon papacy, the pope went nowhere near Rome.Farsight001 (talk) 07:09, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

It is set down in scripture! That is not that personal opinion. The argument being made is propagated on institutional opinion. I was simply adding roundness to the article! WHoleness as it is just being taken as a fact. If they believe it is such away then that is opinion and not fact so the argument must be maintained as it was cited heavily as the argument from the Protestant view point. This is not a forum for the catholic churches beliefs to be propagated. this is It is fact! More over the point that peter was never called a pope nor called the bishop of rome is extremly important as it is the argument on which the papacy is hinged and it is from scripture and the protestant view faulty. This is institutal editing of history and you are acting as a pawn in that battle!Kyle.Mullaney (talk) 15:40, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

First, it would help the flow of the talk page if you would place your comments in the right places and indent them properly. Now what you say is personal opinion. You say it is set down in scripture, but it is not. It is set down in YOUR interpretation of scripture, but over half of all Christians interpret it very differently. For what reason need we accept your personal intrepretation of scripture over anyone else's? This is why wikipedia has sourcing standards and a restriction against original research. Studylight, for example, doesn't even come close to meeting WP:RS, and frankly, has a complete and utter double standard about it after reading the links you added. You are right that this is not a forum for the Church's beliefs to be propagated. But the article should answer the question "what is the pope?" That is the purpose of the article. Blovating on and on about the pope being unbiblical (again, in your opinion) doesn't tell anyone what or who this "pope" is. Check any other encyclopedia on the planet and I guarantee that they have not turned their article on the pope into some sort of scathing expose on how wrong the pope is as you were trying to do here. In addition, as I already explained below, this is in no way the argument on which the papacy hinges. No one particularly cares that the term "pope" didn't yet exist and the pope doesn't have to live in Rome. Hence your entire argument was spurious and pointless in the first place.Farsight001 (talk) 19:18, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Pastor Pastorum

Different explanation concerning the popes signature (Paulus PP. VI) between German and English Wikipedia:

English Version: The best-known title of the Popes, that of "Pope", does not appear in the official list, but is commonly used in the titles of documents, and appears, in abbreviated form, in their signatures. Thus Pope Paul VI signed as "Paulus PP. VI", the "PP." standing for "Papa" ("Pope").

German Version: lateinisch Pastor Pastorum, deutsch „Hirte der Hirten“, als Abkürzung hinter dem lateinischen Papstnamen (z. B. Benedictus PP. XVI.) (says that PP means Pastor Pastorum as opposed to the English explanation saying that PP stands for Papa) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.117.86.245 (talk) 00:32, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

So who's right? "Pastor Pastorum" would really be abbreviated as "P.P.", not as "PP." or as "Pp." (see Duden - Wörterbuch der Abkürzungen) or as "pp." (see Abkürzungen für pp.). Esoglou (talk) 06:53, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

"the Pope" or "the pope"?

This article starts out as ("pope"):

The pope (from Latin: papa; from Greek: p?ppa?[1] (pappas),[2])

Further down it is ("Pope"):

Catholics recognize the Pope as a successor to Saint Peter

Which version is the correct one?

--Mortense (talk) 18:33, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Ze pöpe! Nö dübl blipps! Bork bork! Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 19:45, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

There have been many popes in history (generic), but if meaning the present Pope it needs a capital.--Charles (talk) 21:18, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Protestant denominations

Do we really need the full statement of those extreme Missoury Synod, declaring the pope to be "antichrist". Historically its a deviation since Luther said "the Beast 666", but most modern Lutherans, like me, have calmed down and came to our senses, so to say, and don't attach such general sweeping mystical symbols to any real person or institution. I propose remove the Statement 43, and instead add what Protestants in general, not extremists, think about the pope. I presume something like "arch bishop of Rome", or some neutral concept. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 19:45, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

Clarification: I don't propose removing the standpoint from the Missouri Synod, just shrinking it to the proper size, according to WP:DUE. The full citation isn't needed, a link is enough. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 19:53, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

That entire sectioon needs to be rewritten as every denomination outside of the romish church denies the pope! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyle.Mullaney (talk • contribs) 17:59, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

In what way does the section need to be rewritten? It in no way suggests that other denominations accept the pope. BTW, "Romish" is pretty much the N-word to Catholics. It's quite offensive, so I would suggest not using it in the future.Farsight001 (talk) 07:11, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

Infallibility: not only in 1950

Most theologians —among Catholics and those who support papal infallibility— agree that canonization, as noticed in the strength and solemnity of the formula used to canonize, is an act where the Pope makes use of his infallibility (Catholic Encyclopedia). It is a widespread mistake to blindly affirm that the proclamation of the Dogma of the Assumption has been the only one. St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Robert Belarmine, among others, have stated Papal infallibility in the case of solemn canonizations [1]. I don't know if there are further cases where papal infallibility is used or may be discussed as to have been used, but at least there are these. In the formula for canonization, the Pope invokes the authority of Jesus Christ, St. Peter and himself, makes the definition in the name of the Trinity and states "due deliberation" and asking for "divine assistance":

Ad honorem Sanctæ et Individuæ Trinitatis, ad exaltationem fidei catholicæ et vitæ christianæ incrementum,
auctoritate Domini nostri Iesu Christi, baetorum Apostolorum Petri et Pauli ac Nostra, matura deliberatione
præhabita et divina ope sæpius implorata, ac de plurimorum Fratrum Nostrorum consilio,
Beatum N. Sanctum esse decernimus et definimus, ad Sanctorum Catalogo adscribimus,
statuentes eum in universa Ecclesia inter Sanctos pia devotione recoli debere.
In nomine Patris et Filii et Spiritus Sancti.

For the honour of the Blessed Trinity, the exaltation of the Catholic faith and the fostering of the
Christian life, by the auhtority of our Lord Jesus Christ, of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul,
and our own, after due deliberation and frequent prayers for divine assistance,
and having sought the counsel of many of our brethren in the Episcopate,
we declare and define that Blessed N. is a Saint and we enroll him among the Saints,
decreeing that he is to be venerated in the whole Church as one of the Saints.
In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

I kindly ask this to be corrected in the introduction. 146.155.17.236 (talk) 13:51, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

History

I don't like the way the History section of the article is reading. It sounds more like a debate than an encyclopedia article to me. For example: "The study of the New Testament offers no proof that Jesus established the papacy nor even that he established Peter as the first bishop of Rome". How is that a way to begin that paragraph? Why is that even in there? First off, that Jesus didn't establish the Papacy is a debatable claim and who cares that he didn't establish him as the Bishop of Rome. Catholics don't claim that in the first place. My point is that there should be a line to be followed instead a sequence of rebuttals. The usage of words like "many scholars" or "some scholars" doesn't help the reading neither. Why not present the claim of the Catholic Church on its own history and have a separate section or paragraph or even lead to another article which explains the counterclaims. Otherwise it just becomes a little insane.Yullover (talk) 19:48, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

You are wrong they very much claim that it is historically the basis of the papacy! 18:02, 20 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kyle.Mullaney (talk • contribs)

No, Kyle, Yullover is actually quite right in this regard. That the pope is the bishop of Rome is only a tradition. Catholics claim that Jesus made him a leader, but that he and the other apostles, while dolling out responsibility, made him the bishop of Rome.Farsight001 (talk) 07:16, 21 October 2010 (UTC)

I'm annoyed at the History section as well. I tried editing it a bit, but I think I just muddied the waters even more. It needs a working over, to present a History of the papacy, starting with what Biblical scholarship knows about Peter, then quoting patristics on the Bishop of Rome and the Pope. Then let the reader understand what history tells us about how the terminology began, and how the office of Pope developed. Should do it, right? Then we can have a separate section for debates and flamewars and whatnot. Washi (talk) 17:54, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

"Vicar of Christ"

The following site [2] brings affirmation: Papa Giovanni VIII (872-82) s’era proclamato “vicario di Cristo”, cioè suo unico rappresentante sulla terra e considerava Roma “caput” di tutta la cristianità e dell’impero. (Pope John VIII (872-82) had designated as the "vicar of Christ, " that is his sole representative on earth and saw Rome "caput" of all Christendom and empire.) Leaving clear therefore that since the time of John VII, shortly after the declaration of Gregory II as vicar of Peter, the vicar of Christ term was also used as a demonstration of papal primacy (that is his sole representative on earth and saw Rome "caput" of all Christendom and empire.) My issue is so authentic and well referenced. Kaiser Guilherme II (talk) 17:29, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

You are right and I was wrong with regard to the antiquity of "vicar of Christ". However, I must add some limitations. The oath of Saint Boniface did not use the phrase "vicar of Christ". Instead, the oath spoke of the pope as Peter's vicar. Another correction is also necessary. I will insert it, together with the correction about Boniface's oath, when I have more satisfactory citations to quote. Esoglou (talk) 18:09, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

Clemens I.jpg

Please remove this image from this category because the image is not a pope Clemens I. This is Clement of Ohrid. Thanks-- [[Корисник:Тиверополник|<font color="blue">'''TIVEROPOLNIK'''</font>]] [[Разговор со корисник:Тиверополник|<font color="blue">'''(разговор)'''</font>]] (talk) 22:30, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Pope Leader of Worldwide Catholic Church?

Can someone provide a footnote showing that the Pope is the leader of the worldwide Catholic Church? Because I do not believe the eastern rite churches accept that; the furthest they will go, in this regard, is to acknowledge the Bishop of Rome as first among equals which is not the same as the leader of the worldwide Catholic Church. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.15.175.222 (talk) 20:49, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Do you mean Eastern rite Catholics, or Eastern Orthodox, by "eastern rite churches"? carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 21:04, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Well in seeking an answer to your question I found the answer to my own as well. Encyclopedia Britannica defines Eastern Rite Churches as: any of a group of Eastern Christian churches that trace their origins to various ancient national or ethnic Christian bodies in the East but have established union (hence Eastern rite churches were in the past often called Uniates) or canonical communion with the Roman Apostolic See and, thus, with the Roman Catholic church. In this union they accept the Roman Catholic faith, keep the seven sacraments, and recognize the pope of Rome as supreme head of the church. They retain, however, all other characteristics—e.g., liturgy, spirituality, sacred art, and especially organization—proper to themselves. I'll research this a bit further, because I never knew this to be true; but for now this seems a reliable enough source for me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.15.175.222 (talk) 21:19, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 41.157.70.10, 23 April 2011

As mentioned by previous blogger there is an error in the paragraph "Titles" and "Signature". PP does not mean papa but Pastor Pastorum (shepherd of shepherds). Signature convention are two capital letters P followed by a full stop (e.g., Paulus PP.VI.) Please ask the author to correct. 41.157.70.10 (talk) 12:25, 23 April 2011 (UTC)Otto Katzer ottokatzer@aol.com

Can you cite a reliable source for that claim that outweighs the sources cited in the article? Besides, if the abbreviation were for two words, wouldn't there be a full stop after each letter? Esoglou (talk) 16:37, 23 April 2011 (UTC)

Rewrite The Section ==Saint Peter and the origin of the office==

Catholics believe that this passage shows Jesus establishing his church on the shoulders of Simon son of John (Peter). Some authorities have previously asserted that the "rock" Jesus referred to was Jesus himself or was Peter's faith. The general scholarly consensus is that this account is accurate, and one modern scholar agrees with the straightforward interpretation that the "rock" Jesus refers to in this passage is Peter.

This section is more than SLIGHTLY biased. It makes it sound like no one challenges this position and as though the CATHOLIC consensus is the only consensus on the topic. This is not the consensus of ANY PROTESTANTS, which are a much larger portion of the world than catholics. One citation does not cover the general consensus. Nor does one citation represent a stout and unified objection by a mass of people which does form a consensus. Kyle Mullaney

As a protestant who personally does not believe that Peter was ever in a position anything like Pope, I have no problem with an encyclopedia article about the Catholic Church office of Pope explaining the Catholic Church's position/belief about how said office was established. There are many articles about various aspects of different religious groups which explain that group's beliefs; it does not necessarily mean that other groups also subscribe to the same beliefs. I don't see that it needs to be changed. LarryJeff (talk) 15:35, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

First off, over half of all Christians are Catholic, so protestants are in no way any sort of larger portion of the world than Catholics. Second, there are numerous protestant scholars who do believe that the rock refers to Peter. In fact, I would say that they are the majority among even Protestants. But that's beside the point as this presents the Catholic belief as the Catholic belief. It begins with "Catholics believe...". Farsight001 (talk) 17:30, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

No recognition of evil popes

The main article shows popes in a good light but fails recognise evil popes who were active in fornication, adultery, murder, homosexuality, pornography, etc.

Pope Pius XII, Pope Alexander VI, Pope Damasus I, Pope Sergius III, Pope Innocent III, Pope Boniface VIII, Pope Adrian IV, Pope Pius IX, Pope Urban II.

Edit request from , 9 October 2011

Please change The Catholic scholarly community agrees with the churches interpretation to The Catholic scholarly community agrees with the church's interpretation ElPeterson (talk) 03:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Done Elizium23 (talk) 04:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from , 9 October 2011

Please change teaching not sloely or even mainly, little pebble, that is Peter.[48][49][50] Other's, using Peter's own word's which shows understanding to teaching not solely or even mainly, little pebble, that is Peter.[48][49][50] Others, using Peter's own words which show understanding ElPeterson (talk) 03:32, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Done Elizium23 (talk) 04:33, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

This article needs to be retitled

This article needs to be retitled to Pope of Rome, as the term 'Pope' is also commonly used in the Orthodox Churches, especially by the Coptic Church, whose Patriarch is also called the Pope as well.

Of course, term 'Pope' can also be applied to any ordinary priest in the Orthodox Churches, including the Greek Orthodox Church and the Russian Orthodox Church - (203.211.71.6 (talk) 00:50, 1 December 2011 (UTC))

Actually, the common usage for Pope is the Roman Catholic pope. Other usages would get disambig modifiers to distinguish them from the commonly used term.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 14:41, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Why has a Pope (disambiguation) page not been created, as it is important to distinguish the other Popes, including the Cao Dai Pope & the Coptic Pope, from the Romish Pope? - (203.211.71.6 (talk) 05:37, 25 December 2011 (UTC))

You mean a page like Pope (disambiguation)? Achowat (talk) 18:15, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

MOS sometimes down-cases "pope"

The MOS down-cases "pope" when it does not refer to a particular individual. We use "Pope" when followed by a person'a name or when context establishes that we are referring to a particular pope rather than the generic holder of the office. This same style is used for any title including "president, king, emperor, pope, bishop, abbot, executive director" since they are common nouns. Jojalozzo 19:16, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

In line with WP:BRD, I have reverted the bold edit and would like to see the matter discussed by various editors before any decision is made. I do not have time to study the question myself. Earlier today, the only source that came immediately to hand was Stark's, which, for all I know, may be a minority view. Esoglou (talk) 19:57, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, Esoglou. I'm fine with BRD. I expect you will have support. Wikipedia's down-cased style can be disturbing. Jojalozzo 20:32, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

(Copied from Esoglou's talk page where I first saw this discussion). My emotional response was to agree that it should be "the Pope" or capitalize when speaking about specific popes, (as alluded to in the Stark book above) but I did some research. According to the LA Archdiocese it should only be capitalized when used as a title[3], Archdiocese of Milwaukee[4], University of Loyola "Lowercase unless it immediately precedes the name of the individual who holds the position"[5], etc

Secular sources go into more detail Grammarly[6], US Customs Today[7], the associated press explicitly states "When the title stands alone, spell out the title and DO NOT capitalize it"[8], etc

Basically, what I discovered is that I think I was wrong in my interpretation. I always thought pope should be capitalized if it was in reference to a specific individual (ala Stark). Similarly I thought governor/president should be capitalized when referencing speciifc individuals. E.g. if referencing President Obama, I thought, then the President was correct. Based on what I found, it isn't.. The only time job/roles of a person, even when speaking of a specific individual filling a specific role, is when the title immediately preceeds the users name (and is not separated via a comma/period... E.g. 'Pope Benedict' is correct but 'Pope, Benedict' is not.) Either way, I'm not going to fight either version too vigorously.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 20:39, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Here we are talking about the office of the Pope/pope. What is your response to my talk-page comment: I am quite surprised at the suggestion that in United States constitutional terms we should, when speaking of the office, write of the relations between the "president" and the "Congress" - or should it be "congress"? Esoglou (talk) 20:53, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Excellent question. Per USA Today's style guide, congress when referring to a specific body of Congress (wether US, State, or another country) is capitalized.[9] I've found several sources that talk about the capitalization of specific "offices", in which case the rule seems to capitalize[10]. Based on what I'm seeing, and I'm no expert on this, I could buy into the argument that when talking about the office of the Pope, it should be capitalized. When talking about a specific pope, it should not be (although, I'm pliable there as well if further sources can be found.)

(Interesting aside, the Speaker [of the House] is an exception and always gets capitalized, presumably to differentiate between the Speaker [of the House] and the speaker [who is currently talking]. Similarly, First Lady is capitalized when referring to a specific First Lady of a country as compared to the first lady of poker.[11])

So, when speaking about the office-holder as such (as we are generally doing in this article), it is the President and the Pope, but we would speak of the last six presidents (individuals) and the last six popes (individuals)? Esoglou (talk) 22:06, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

If by office holder you mean role/office, then I'm inclined to agree... E.g. if we are talking about the roles/responsibilities of the Pope, I'd say yes. "It is in Benedict's role as Pope to do XYZ". But I've asked for help on this because I am not a grammar expert... I'm going based upon what I've seen in a limited amount of research since seeing the thread on your talk page.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 23:23, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

One would think that all it would take is a look in your favorite style guide, due to the pope's appearance in the news every month or so. --Guerillero | My Talk 23:40, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

The "Congress" is neither a person nor a job title so I'm not sure why we are comparing it to the "president". A better analog for "president" is "congresswoman" which the MOS also down-cases unless it occurs before a person's name. Jojalozzo 03:46, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

The guideline for "Congress" is WP:MOS#Institutions. Jojalozzo 05:36, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Congress is the institution that represents the Legislative Branch. The Supreme Court is the instutition that represents the Judicial Branch. The President is the institution that represents the Executive branch. The Congress is filled with congressmen/women. The Supreme Court consists of Supreme Court justices. The President is filled by the president. In other words, President in this context has two meanings---both the office and the office holder. Similarly, Pope can have two meanings---both the office and the office holder.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 16:01, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I think the term we want is the "Executive Branch" not presidency. I think presidency usually refers to a president's term in office, e.g. "during the Reagan presidency". Jojalozzo 18:35, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Presidency is definitely a different term. But like Supreme Court/Congress are the bodies defined by the constitution to embody their respective branches, President is the body defined by the Constitution to embody the executive branch. That being said, I think this is moot discussion based upon what we've said below.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 19:08, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

It's my understanding that this discussion is not about other style guides or about whether our style guide is wrong. We can have that discussion at WP:MOSCAPS. Here we need to decide how to apply our existing style guide and make sure we interpret it correctly.

Do we want to more participation? RfC? Jojalozzo 03:46, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

Based upon the response that I've gotten and what I've read on the subject, it seems as if the use of capitalization for specific individuals such as the pope varies by sources/style guidelines. There is no uniform consensus on whether high level public figures should be capitalized (although it is apparently more common to do so in the U.S.) They key is to be consistent in which method is used. That being said, the MOS for Wikipedia has sided with the use of lower case for titles that are not immediately preceeding the individuals name. Thus, IMO, we should follow that style guideline.

The question that then remains, is does Pope when referring to the Office of the Pope deserve to be capitalized? From what I can tell, the guideline is to capitalize when using the official name of the office, but not the informal name. Eg The Department of Civil Engineering is correct, but Civil Engineering Department is not. Thus, the usage of "pope" to designate the Office of the Pope (or whichever title we use for the pope) is an informal title and should not be capitalized.

Thus, while I initially thought it should be capitalized when used to reference specific popes or as an office, my LIMITED research says otherwise---I am open to being pursuaded otherwise if somebody can show that it should be. To me, the situation depends on whether or not Pope is a formal name of the office.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 16:12, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

As the article states: "pope" refers to the officeholder (lead sentence), the informal term for the office is "the papacy" (2nd para) and several "correct official name(s) of the office" are listed in Pope#Official list of titles ("Bishop of Rome", "Supreme Pontiff of the Universal Church", ...). Jojalozzo 18:35, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

That works for me... of course, we need to see what counter arguments might be presented.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 19:08, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I don't follow the argumentation. I think we all agree that "pope" is correct when speaking of the popes of the 17th century, or the French popes, etc. But should we open the article with "The pope (from Latin: papa; from Greek: πάππας (pappas),[1] a child's word for father) is the Bishop of Rome ... the pope is regarded as the successor of Saint Peter ..."? Esoglou (talk) 20:31, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

As I understand it, the article is about anyone who has held, is holding or will hold the office of Bishop of Rome, not any specific office holder. Therefore we are using the title generically and we should down-case it. Jojalozzo 20:39, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid that this is the direct opposite of what I think. If we were talking about some individual who has held, is holding or will hold the office, it should be lower case: "a pope", "one of the popes who ..."; but I think that when we are speaking of the office generically or in the abstract, it should be upper case. When speaking of United States constitutional affairs, do we or do we not speak of the checks and balances between the President of the United States (abstract, generic), not some particular president (some individual who has held, is holding or will hold the office), and the Congress? Am I wrong? Esoglou (talk) 21:13, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

You are wrong---in part. Properly speaking, if we are using the Office of the President or President of the United States then it would be capitalized. But if we were to talk about the United States president or more generically the president, then they are lower case. Titles are lower case, specific jobs are upper case when it is the official title, but lower case when it is not. When I was looking into this yesterday, there was an example related to the Chicago Manual of Style. According to the CMOS, president should be lower case unless it is used before a name or is the formal title. First Lady is always capitalized. The CMOS was asked about the phrase "the president and First Lady" because it looked weird. The editors at CMOS responded by agreeing that it looked weird, but that the solution wasn't to IAR and capitalize president, but rather to rewrite it as "President Obama and the First Lady" or "the President of the United States and the First Lady."

I say in part because American English is apparently starting to diverge in this regard from English as used elsewhere---especially in regards to the president. Apparently us Yanks, are starting to capitalize pronouns as described by the Stark reference you provided. But that practice has not garnered widespread acceptance (even in the U.S.). It is apparently an issue that (in the US at least) can go either way. That being said, WP's MOS has sided with the traditional usage of capitalizations.---Balloonman ^{Poppa Balloon} 21:46, 6 December 2011 (UTC)

@Esoglou: The lead sentence appears to be talking about the office holder, no? Only when we get to the second paragraph do we talk about the office. As far as I can tell, pope is used to refer to the person not the office and papacy is used to refer to the office. It would help if you could check and identify some instances in the article where you think pope is used to mean the office and not the officeholder.

Even so, according to the MOS, informal names for an office (presidency, papacy) are common nouns. It only calls for capitalizing the "correct formal name of the office" (e.g. President of the United States, Bishop of Rome). In the end we wouldn't capitalize even those cases, if any, where we agree that "pope" is used to refer to the office. Jojalozzo 04:27, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

As I see it (wrongly?), the lead sentence, "the Pope/pope is the Bishop of Rome", is talking about the generic abstract office holder, not about an individual concrete holder of the office, as in "the Pope's/pope's name is Benedict XVI". The office is "the papacy", not "the Pope/pope".

The NASA style manual, 86 says you should capitalize not only "President of the United States" but also (when referring to that president) "the President". This Australian style guide says practically the same with regard to "the Prime Minister", "the President", "the Queen". The last of these, in particular, would at first sight look very odd as "the queen", but I suppose one could get used to it. Capitalize the words used to refer to people in very high offices, such as "President" in "President of the United States," or "The President spoke to the Prime Minister of England" - this is what this United States style guide says. Other (American?) style guides suggest using lower case, but whether they are a minority or a majority, whether they are exclusively American or are international, there is no reason why Wikipedia must necessarily adopt their style. Wikipedia rules for capitalization of such high office holders should surely echo its rules for varieties of English: keep whatever style is established in the article and which is approved by (some) reputable sources, and don't change it to fit instead your own preferred style. Esoglou (talk) 19:05, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I agree that the lead sentence and the whole article is using "pope" to refer to the office holder and we use "papacy" or other terminology to refer to the office. Our MOS allows for exceptions to the house style if there is a consistent usage in sources but I don't see evidence of consistent capitalization in sources as evidenced in the variations in style guides you researched and in the Encyclopedia Brittanica (which uses "pope" for non-specific officeholder). That suggests we adopt our MOS style: lower-case "pope" for generic usage and capitalize when referring to a specific person. Jojalozzo 23:46, 7 December 2011 (UTC)

Would you please help me by giving the link to our "house style". I know it must be somewhere in the Wikipedia Manual of Style, but I have too much on my plate to have an appetite for searching out the exact place. Esoglou (talk) 07:44, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Since you haven't answered my request, I looked for the link myself and found this. Is it what you have in mind? Inter alia, it says: "Elizabeth II is 'the Queen' not 'the queen'." With all due respect to Her Britannic Majesty, I do not think that the rule "A very high ranking office may begin with a capital letter when used to refer to a specific and obvious person" applies to her but not to the Pope. Esoglou (talk) 21:45, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry. I thought I had posted links to the Titles section. Maybe it was on another talk page. Anyway, I agree with you about using "the Pope" when we are referring to a particular (specific and obvious) person but still "pope" when we are discussing a generic holder of the office, right? Jojalozzo 21:57, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

The place that I found also says: "Offices, positions, and job titles such as president, king, emperor, pope, bishop, abbot, executive director are common nouns and therefore should be in lower case when used generically: 'Mitterrand was the French president' or 'There were many presidents at the meeting'." This must be what you had in mind. I think there is no dispute, either inside or outside of Wikipedia, that it is correct to write: "Elizabeth I was an English queen"; "Richard Nixon was a controversial president"; "Pius IX was the pope of the First Vatican Council". In these cases the words are clearly common nouns. But reliable sources support either lower case or upper case in statements about the constitutional position of the (generic) Queen/queen, President of the United States/president of the United States, Pope/pope. Does Wikipedia really ban expressions such as "The Queen (or King) is the head of state of the United Kingdom", "Congress can impeach the President", "In Catholic teaching, the Pope is the successor of Saint Peter", when used with reference not to any particular individual, but to whoever holds the high offices? Esoglou (talk) 09:43, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, the Titles section of the Capitalization page of the MOS is the governing language for capitalizing "Pope/pope". However, the MOS does not ban anything. It's just a guideline and there's flexibility when it's needed.

The core of our capitalization style is to avoid unnecessary capitalization which is often contrary to common usage. For example most of us took a while to accept using sentence-style capitalization for titles of articles and sections. I see our job title/office style as very similar. It's not what we're used to but it appears to be working and we're willing to go along.

I don't see a problem with down-casing pope when it refers to the non-specific officeholder, e.g. "In Catholic teaching, the pope is the successor of Saint Peter". The guideline is clear and, as you say, there is no consistent usage in sources that would suggest we need to go outside the guidelines.

It makes sense to me that Congress is a proper noun since there is just the one institution. And it makes sense that for generic office holders, "president", "pope", and "queen" are common nouns since we're referring to a class of people not a specific individual. To me, "The Congress can impeach the president" seems fine since we're just talking about a generic process not a specific event involving a specific person. I think it's the same as saying "The legislature can impeach the president" or "The judiciary can strike down laws passed by the legislature." Likewise, I don't see the problem with "In Catholic teaching, the pope is the successor of Saint Peter." Jojalozzo 05:55, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

"The MOS does not ban anything", you say with regard to capitalizing "Pope/pope", "and there's flexibility where it's needed". So there is no need to impose on a Wikipedia article a capitalization different from what is already established in an article. Authoritative sources can be found for both "The Congress can impeach the president" and "The Congress can impeach the President". The latter style, in which institutions such as "the President", "the Queen", "the Pope" are capitalized, is in harmony with the normal capitalization of, for instance, "the Crown" as an institution. There are no grounds for eliminating it from Wikipedia as if it were banned. Esoglou (talk) 07:29, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

ambiguous wording in section "Saint Peter and the origin of the office"

The article currently has "The Catholic scholarly community agrees with the church's interpretation that the "rock" Jesus refers to in this passage is Peter. An interpretation that some scholars agree with" implying that this view is generally rejected. However, the Encyclopædia Britannica article cited says that this view is "the consensus of the great majority of scholars today." This should be made clear in the wording.

Ex Cathedra

the intro says that the first and only ex cathedra statment after the definition of papal infallibility was the assumption. was the immaculate conception before of after the definition of papal infallibility? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.34.80.119 (talk) 20:32, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

The article is correct, it was before, in the 1850s; papal infallibility wasn't defined/declared until 1870 at Vatican I. carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 20:44, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Ambiguity in lead paragraph

The contributing editor has a history of edit-warring so I will follow WP:BRD here and discuss the addition. The proposed phrase is: a position that makes him the leader of what is sometimes called the worldwide Catholic Church. This is ambiguous and raises more questions than it answers. There is no source or explanation given for the assertion. Please provide a source, and/or an explanation in the article, not in edit summaries, or remove it altogether. Elizium23 (talk) 05:47, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Remember that the standard for inclusion is Verifiability. While this is often contrasted as verifiability, not truth it is also important to note that the standard is "Can this fact be verified?" and not "Has this fact been verified?". Sources and citations are only truly necessary for facts that are likely to be challenged. Is there really any concern that the Pope is not the leader of the Catholic Church, as defined in the lede and in the article that is linked to? Achowat (talk) 12:52, 16 January 2012 (UTC)

Request for change of disparaging term

Please change "... as the basis for His kingdom and not making a pope of Peter as the Papists claim" to "... as the basis for His kingdom and not making a pope of Peter as Catholics claim."

Reason: The above quoted is found under the section heading "Saint Peter and the origin of the office". The term papist has negative, derogatory connotations (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papist). The term Catholic would be more appropriate and accurate here.

Bclyons12 (talk) 00:09, 17 January 2012 (UTC)Bclyons12

Done thanks for pointing it out. Elizium23 (talk) 00:23, 17 January 2012 (UTC)