Talk:Popular music

What generation gap?

It's pure rubbish to assert that he musical generation gap has widening since WWII. It's been narrowing since about 1980, not widening. It's not unusual for young people today to raid their parents' music collections. The musical ideas of rock and roll's first decades still have a good deal of currency in today's rock music. What we have today, in terms of a generation gap, is nothing compared to the 1960s and 1970s when, I can tell you, we were not seeking out our parents' Frank Sinatra, Lawrence Welk, and Patti Page records.Pithecanthropus (talk) 04:02, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

Alas!

Boring, uninspired, somewhat elitist article that doesnt even give a basic definition of "popular" music. Most notable is a narrow-minded and oh-so persistent "distinction" between classical and popular music. Thus, according to article, Tool, PJ Harvey or Radiohead are "profit" driven popular music. Fine. And Schenker's analysis of "depth" are yet another sad reminder of obssolete and long forgotten western "classical" narcissism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.146.160.148 (talk) 08:39, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree. This article is more or less claiming that all non-classical music is commercial trash with no artistic value. The complexity section is POV and factually inaccurate to the umpteenth degree. I'm removing it. Zazaban (talk) 01:52, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree! The article suggests that every rock/hiphop/metal etc. song has a simple structure; this is not true for many genres including progressive rock/metal, idm, ambient and post-rock. Also, does grindcore appeal to a larger audience? I doubt that... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.56.0.108 (talk) 00:36, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Alas!

Boring, uninspired, somewhat elitist article that doesnt even give a basic definition of "popular" music. Most notable is a narrow-minded and oh-so persistent "distinction" between classical and popular music. Thus, according to article, Tool, PJ Harvey or Radiohead (as witnessed by their latest album) are "profit" driven popular music. Fine. And Schenker's analyses of "depth" are yet another sad reminder of obsolete and long forgotten western "classical" narcissism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vsb (talk • contribs) 08:48, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Completely agree!!! I tried to add a little neutrality, and my comment was deleted because it wasn't cited... Like ANYTHING in this article is cited. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.57.127.82 (talk) 04:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Strengths and weaknesses

It is good that this page does not quote hundreds of musicians - often a weakness of writing on popular music. nevertheless I think it is very simplistic. A large amount of profit is made out of classical music, often by the same record companies who sell popular music. Folk music was not "transmitted exclusively" orally, as recent studies have shown. The authenticity is oversimplified.

Many other forms of art have made lots of money. Would we claim that Picasso's work was no longer of much artistic value once he became rich - this would be difficult to claim. Many great artists and composers of the 16th to 18th centuries for example had to please their rich customers; often this affected adversely the quality of their work, but often it didn't. The fact that companies can make a lot of money doesn't always have the same effect.

there is however a tension between moneymaking (and therefore let's not take risks, let's try to sell what sold last year) and a need to rebel, taken up by each new generation in a different way (jazz, skiffle, folk, rock, punk, rave, rap etc)

The other difficulty is that popular music is a mass activity. for every band that makes money there are a thousand that don't, and half of them don't care.

JM

Popular or non-popular

Nice page but it is off point in drawing the dichotomy between pop and other styles as being based on being performed for enjoyment. It is plainly obvious that numerous pop artists performed for enjoyment and at times were even part of the non pop genres before being discovered. I understand the point that is being attempted but it would be more accurate to work in the following facts: *Pop music can be of virtually any genre.

• Pop music artists often perform for enjoyment (take the last few years of the singer songwriter onslaught led by John Mayer and Jack Johnson). Singer songwriters are definitely producing music that is "like so tru to how they feel" but for enjoyment might be contraversial sense the feelings they seek to "share with the world" are as often anguishing as enjoyable. They are epitomes of self absorbtion. A better example might be Eminem or the likes.
• Pop music artists are often not considered pop until after they get airplay (phantom planet was not pop until recently) and therefore pop music is often an a posteriori claim not an a priori one.
• When it is an a priori claim (that is when a local band or artist is referred to as pop before they have entered the pop culture via mass media) it is usually used pejoratively and to signify that the artist/s isn't/aren't creating music that is true to the essence of the genre from whence they came (greenday was known as pop punk before ever entering the pop culture)

These are just a few suggestions and my main beef with the page is that it seems to at times present the pop artist as being a tool of the industry execs when it could actually be the other way around, such as in Rage Against the Machines decision to enter pop culture with the intention of spreading decidedly non-pop messages.

• I would argue that your arguments are mostly semantic here. First, it should be clear that all music is created for enjoyment in some sense. What the author suggests in your disputed passage is that pop music is for the most part, a harnessing of this enjoyment for commercial purposes, as opposed to weaker commercial instincts of other forms. The fact that it is "pop" music, itself is indicatory of its commercial success. Also, if you think classical music isn't "anguishing", I've got a Stravinsky in Brooklyn to sell you, although I'm not quite sure what you meant by such a word. Your mention of Phantom Planet's not being "pop" is just an incorrect usage of the term. Though it may not be "popular" in the most popular sense of the word, they certainly fall into the realm of "popular" music. Similarly, any music written for an orchestra or traditional orchestra instruments would be considered "classical" to the undiscerning listener. Of another nebulous semantic issue, what we might consider "pop" within the world of popular music, Britney Spears for instance, is really better thought of as a genre or style. You might compare this to the sub-classification of the classical era in the world of classical music. --B. Phillips 9 July 2005 11:38 (UTC)

Genres sections

I appreciate the clarity that is created by the sections Popular_music#Genres and Popular_music#Genres_that_are_not_popular_music, but the actual situation is more complex, with some genres being considered a part of popular music by different writers at different times, and othertimes not. For example, some theories describe folk music as a large genre within popular music, some theories distinguish popular music from classical in that it is a part of folk music. Hyacinth 19:10, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I moved this section [Genres] to a new article, having a long list embedded in the middle of this one made the page horrible to navigate. User:Gordon Ross 09:40, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

• Genres that are not popular music

Musical genres usually considered not to be popular music include:

• Most classical music, including opera
• Children's songs (including nursery rhymes and jumprope songs)
• Folk music, as created by traditional performers
• Gregorian chant, hymns, and many other forms of religious music
• Military music
• National anthems and other patriotic music
• Sea shanties and other work songs

As noted earlier, these have a distinct character from popular music: either they are transmitted by word of mouth rather than in organized fashion (children's songs, authentic folk music) or else they are produced to fill the needs of a particular social institution (church, aristocracy, the military, or the state). Note that music pieces of each of these genres can become part of the popular music either in their pure form (like various gregorian compilation CD's) or as remixes (like Moby's Play).

I removed the directly above from the article per my discussion above. Hyacinth 06:41, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with some of the objections raised in this section. This article is written in a tone and manner that makes it seem like popular music vs. art music vs. traditional music is a very clear-cut distinction. It is in some cases, but in others it's not. For example, what is Hip hop music? There is popular hip-hop but there's a lot of it that arguably spills over into both of the other two categories. What about bluegrass? It could be called traditional music, but it could also be popular music...it might depend on the artist, or the way it's performed, etc. I think that this article needs to communicate these nuances--to not do so is to create a horrible bias, a very bad sort of POV. Cazort (talk) 03:26, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Lists

Should the following pages:

• Popular Music/Performers
• Rock and roll/performers

be changed to "List of pop performers" and "list of rock and roll performers"? For that matter, I'm not sure how we should distinguish between the two. At any rate, I think they should be moved out from subpages. Tarquin, Wednesday, June 19, 2002

I think the best solution (after moving from subpages) would be to make one big list of Popular Music Performers. For each genre (such as rock, but also disco, funk, Britpop; anything) there should be a short list of representative performers - included in the article, preferable accompanied by some text (like "Band x were the first to score a number 1 hit with a genre y song").

This will avoid including some names in many lists (it is not always easy to determine which genre a performer is playing, and it may change over time and the exact properties music genres highly debatable). The list of popular music performers will serve the purpose of listing all mentioned artists and bands in the Wikipedia. -- jheijmans

What should we call the kind of popular music I like (mostly popular from late '40s to mid '50s)? The music of the period before is commonly referred to as big band music; the music of the period afterward as Rock 'n' Roll but there seems to be no name for this kind of popular music and if we give genres, we need to use some name for this music - represented by such as Doris Day, Perry Como, etc. -- BRG

Date of origin

User 152.163.253.100 raises the important point of when popular music began. The date of the 1950's cannot be correct, since it leave out big bands (1930-40's), ragtime (ca. 1900), parlor music like "Listen to the Mockingbird" (1855), and perhaps earlier stuff I'm not aware of.

I'd suggest that each genre, in its own article, be given a date of origin; we can't really generalize at this level except to identify the earliest popular music of any kind. Opus33 15:19, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree with Opus33. Listing the emergence of each form by date will remove the some of the unrigorous flabbiness from this article, such as saying that Big band music or jazz isn't popular music because it "isn't popular any more", or some of the other weak categorizations made here. Remove all the categories and put dates on everything, then list in chronological order.Ortolan88 23:50, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I'd be happy to be rid of the "no longer popular" category--I put it in only as an effort to be tactful with another editor, a practice which (as I am learning) does not generally lead to good results...

Putting in accurate dates of origin for the genres is not at all easy. We need a serious expert, or at least someone who has a serious book. Opus33 00:19, 5 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Let's delete the article on popular music, since it doesn't make sense. User:4.161.5.187 Oct 15 2004

How about we start the origin at the 1930s because, the radio was then widely in use.

Well, popular music has emerged in the second half of the 19th century, so we have to write about cabaret, tin pan alley, music hall, circus, minstrel shows and all that, including sheet music sales, invention of gramophones and much more. That's definitely a complex task and requires much work and possibly reorganization of entire article. So it's better not to write anything about history at all.

It would be a complex task, that's why it's important. If it were simple, it would be much less necessary. The popularization of music is tied to the technologies and venues for music and this is a critical thing to understand if one is to draw sensible distinctions between classical, folk and popular music. It would be interesting to know when the term began being used and what it was referring to. Then, from that point, working backward in time through 'populist' developments in music that captured the way people experienced music (with a tactful disqualification of traditions that run too far afield -- the australian aborigines, for example, didn't have much of an influence on what would become 'popular' music. while interaction with native americans and africans did to a greater extent, their contributions were generally seen as of lesser importance). Popuylar music, to me, seems like a natural function of cities developing a musical entertainment community populated by those who were not acceptable for court/classical group positions. "Cabaret, tin pan alley, music hall, circus, minstrel shows" these seem like exactly the things that should be explored in their influence on populare music. I'm suspecting that the term was first used but not very deeply considered for sheet music but then with phonograph production, there was a real need for knowing what is 'popular' Epsilonnull 16:55, 4 June 2006 (UTC)

Rockabilly

I did not find a listing for Rockabilly music. This is a style of music that is still alive and well, and has been a great influnce on many artist and writers. George from the Beatles was a big fan of Carl Perkins.

Robert

Pop music is amazing.

Pop vs Classical

This is not to say that popular music is definitively or always simpler than classical. The "default length" of phrases which classical music supposedly deviates from were set as the default by music of the common practice period. Jazz, rap and many forms of technical metal, for instance, make use of rhythms more complex than would appear in the average common practice work, and popular music sometimes uses certain complex chords that would be quite unusual in a common practice piece. Popular music also uses certain features of rhythm and pitch inflection not analyzable by the traditional methods applied to common practice music.

Are there any sources for such a claim? I certainly don't see anything backing it up.

brewhaha@freenet.edmonton.ab.ca: Maybe something about techno-pop could be written in. A paragraph mentions the waw-waw pedal. Other devices, like the talk-box are written up in wiki, probably under special and audio effects. As far as the definition of "Classic Rock" goes, according to a local station it often includes a-cappella vocals and the slide guitar. 216.234.170.108 20:46, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Was thinking the same thing. I think the entire section should be rewritten and/or not compare popular music to classical music. The whole thing sounds like defending popular music rather than objectively comparing or providing insight into either. Also what is "average common practice work"? Technical metal? etc. 84.58.183.29 12:20, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

A lot of electronic music has extreme frequency-domain complexity e.g. FSOL Lifeforms - compare that to a something like to a Liszt Transcendental Etudes which is time-domain complex (but ultimately the same harmonics with just changing fundamental of each note)

Pictures

this site rocks but it needs pics ofgood rock bands

A List of Albums Generally Considered to be a Band's Magnum Opus

This section does not add anything to the article. The list is subjective and does not even contain albums generally considered to be the best or most important in the history of popular music. I propose that this section be deleted.

Please sign your posts on talk pages per Wikipedia:Sign your posts on talk pages. Thanks. Hyacinth 08:09, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

My apologies, I did not have an account when I wrote that. Any thoughts on what I said? Makeemlighter 02:15, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

No problem. I agree and am removing the section. I'm not sure how it applies to popular music and "generally" is a Wikipedia:Weasel words. Hyacinth 16:55, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Punk

I removed:

• "but have themselves become mainstream (e.g. Blink 182, Green Day, Fallout Boy, Kaiser Chiefs)."

from:

• "Several movements such as punk in the 80s, and Indie in the 90s, have attempted to try to take back control, but have themselves become mainstream (e.g. Blink 182, Green Day, Fallout Boy, Kaiser Chiefs)."

as it is a reply and would first need to show that Blink 182 etc started out trying to be "indie" and ended up mainstream. Hyacinth 10:35, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Genre - Subgenre List

• I've noticed a few funny oddities about the Genres/subgenres. For example, is J-rock and J-pop really their own categories and not just simply a subgenre of Rock and Pop, respectively? If even that?
• Also, is Cheese really a genre of music? Its link was broken - i found the page and fixed the link, but i do not believe this is a genre of music either. I propose deleting it from the list.

I didnt get a good look at the entire list of genres, but that is what ive noticed. Has anyone else noticed oddities like this? -Psydude 15:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Axel F

Could someone with comprehensive knowledge about this sort of thing please look at the section about Axel F? I think this needs serious attention. Why is this track considered "classical" and "crossover" in any way? The sentence about it starting off being very popular is a bit inane. At the very least I think we need more information if these sort of claims are going to be made.

That whole bit is nonsense - I'm going to remove it (hope no-one minds?) Hopsyturvy 13:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

"Ranjith"

The revisions from August 28 2006, by 203.99.195.4, added that the contemporary music business was "founded by Ranjith," and then added the title "---the great" and gave some lifetime dates of "98842-65108 or 98405-28236." I have deleted these. Mkilly 15:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Pejorative Descriptions of Minimalism

The article includes a few thinly-supported negative descriptions of minimalism. It is true that composers such as Steve Reich were inspired by folk and popular music, but Reich would note that Bartok and Stravinsky were as well. The immitation of repetitive rhythmic and harmonic devices found in American rock, African and Indian traditional music, etc., was a very conscious and deliberate creative decision on the part of "minimalist" composers and largely a response to the hyper-density and complexity of 1950s serialism. On a side note, it would seem to make sense that some reference be made to the written tradition of classical music as opposed to the aural transmission of folk and popular music.

I agree, and would like to point out the following weasel words: "however, much minimalist music goes against these tendencies, and thus is considered non-serious by many critics." Hmmm, "many critics"? 71.101.131.94 23:22, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Classical vs. Pop

This paragraph should be removed for two reasons. First, a value judgement on the relative merits of classical and pop music is inappropriate for an encyclopedia. Second, it is factually incorrect. The statement "popular music sometimes uses certain complex chords that would be quite unusual in a common practice piece" is simply incorrect. To suggest that any popular music is more harmonically complex than Wagner is frankly ridiculous. "Jazz, rap and many forms of technical metal rhythms more complex than would appear in the average common practice work" - Mussorgsky's "promenade" from "pictures at an exhibition" features alternating bar lengths of 5 and 6. Mozart's "Don Giovanni" has a section in which the orchestra is split into three parts, each playing in a different time signature. This comment has been posted without any citations or references in its support. Does anyone object to its removal?

"This is not to say that popular music is definitively or always simpler than classical. The "default length" of phrases which classical music supposedly deviates from were set as the default by music of the common practice period. Jazz, rap and many forms of technical metal, for instance, make use of rhythms more complex than would appear in the average common practice work, and popular music sometimes uses certain complex chords that would be quite unusual in a common practice piece. Popular music also uses certain features of rhythm and pitch inflection not analysable by the traditional methods applied to common practice music."

This should be deleted for the following reasons.

-No sources are supplied in support of any of the statements.

-It is factually inaccurate.

-A discussion of the relative merits of classical music and pop music doesn't belong in an encyclopedia.

This paragraph is the kind of thing which gives wikipedia a bad name. I am deleting it.

No, it ISN'T factually inaccurate - you've just yet to hear any "popular" music (a total misnomer of a term - how are genres like IDM, avant-garde, experimental, and drone produced for 'commercial purposes' - that's right, they AREN'T!) that reaches that echelon of complexity. I'd advise looking beyond the radio. Elitism won't get you anywhere. Classical, baroque, romanticism, etc. are all just genres - they are in no way superior to genres such as technical death metal, drone, krautrock, progressive rock, avant-metal, etc etc... blah blah blah. In an ideal world there would be no conceited academic terms demarcating some fictive 'line' between these two 'realms' of music, but apparently people get a real kick of claiming 'popular' music is 'simplistic'. Whatever... maybe if all you've ever heard is The Beatles and Led Zeppelin... *yawn*... do the knowledge, then you'll be qualified to comment. Blah blah blah comment comment comment remark etc 121.223.196.153 (talk) 08:52, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

Popular music and pop music

Both the template and the infobox don't belong here, this article doesn't overlap the pop music one.Doktor Who 22:04, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Classical is distinct from popular music - but what about jazz?

Is jazz different from both of these? I'd just like some opinions--h i s ^{s p a c e} _{r e s e a r c h} 23:17, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Your question is confusing because you refer to the distinction classical/popular while it actually seems to refer to the general musicological distinction between art music and popular music. Indeed the distinction classical/popular is actually an issue concerning the distinction between art music and popular music.There's a frequent amalgam between art music and classical music.The potential confusion lies in the fact classical music is art music, but art music isn't necessarilly classical. Art music includes classical, but it doesn't mean art music can be reduced to classical music only...

Now to reply to your question: Most part of Jazz is considered as popular music, but certain complex and erudite forms of jazz are considered as art music or something intermediary between popular and art music. But while certains forms of Jazz can be considered as art music (that is to say distinct from popular music) they are also distinct from classical tradition as well. Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 11:24, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

Complexity

This section is terrible. First of all, it claims that popular music is 'simple.' Progressive rock musicians would disagree with you. In fact, this entire article seems to be claiming that all non-classical music is throwaway commercial products with no artistic value. This is an insult to the vast repertoire of non-classical musicians who try to express themselves. Zazaban (talk) 01:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

House music

I realize house music would fit under the category of "popular music" by the indicated meaning in the article, but is it really a good idea to mention it in the first picture in the article? House music is a very underground type of music as are most electronic genres, and I think it would be more fitting to show a genre of music that is actually, to the alternative meaning of the word, popular, such as rock or "pop" music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kobb (talk • contribs) 23:33, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

A house band doesn't play House Music. They are a band that plays in the same house all the time. Noit (talk) 03:05, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

"Popular Song" should not redirect here

Since this article has no information about popular songs, per se, just the genre of popular music. I would like to redirect Popular Song to Song#Popular, and then expand that section to actually discuss what a popular song is. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 20:43, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

Why does this article exist?

I've never heard anybody use "Popular Music" as a pronoun. I've heard of "Pop Music", but there is another article with that name. The authors of this article are having a difficult time defining "Popular Music" because it is not a valid entity. It's just a phrase; it's not the title of anything. It would be like having an article for "Fast Boat" or "Tall Building". I think the confusion comes from the literal translation from other languages. The French call it "Musique Populaire", but it's the same as our "Pop Music". This article should be culled for any good information, combined with "Pop Music", and redirected. Although, I don't want to take an American centric stance. If more English speaking cultures around the world call it Popular Music than call it Pop Music, then do the same thing, but redirect Pop Music here. Noit (talk) 00:47, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

This article exists because "popular music" is a commonly used term in the English language. Before you make drastic changes to the article you should consult some sources on pop and popular music, for instance those discussing popular music and its popularity, so that you have heard someone use "popular music" as a pronoun, at least theoretically. Hyacinth (talk) 01:50, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm not about to jump in and make drastic changes yet. I just don't think being a "commonly used term" makes it an encyclopedia article. How about "Nice Day"? This article doesn't really say anything. Any definition in the article is immediately refuted, because any other characteristics a person attaches to the simple phrase "popular music", beyond the simple definition of "music that is popular", will just be personal taste and bias. It's all rhetoric. To further try to define such a simple phrase is like an unsolvable riddle. You talk about "popular music and its popularity". And then there's the issue of Pop Music. Anything meaningful the article has to say about the corporate influence over popular music is really about Pop Music and belongs in that article. Right in the top paragraph the confusion begins with Pop Music. You're chasing your tail on this one. There's no article here, and all the quotes and references are from cultural theorists who've written equally vague rhetoric about this non-subject. It would be more worthwhile as a timeline of the most popular music styles throughout history. Noit (talk) 11:53, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, Noit, but because a notion is not part of your personal culture doesn't mean it is inexistant. Pop music and popular music are not the same as you seem to believe. Notion of "popular music" is a perfectly admited and frequently used term in musicology. It has a clear definition and it is completely distinct from "pop music"(even though it is related). Traditional musicology generally distinguishes three main types of music: Art music(Including classical music, [Contemporary classical music|modernist and post-modernist serious music]] most particularly), Popular music (including rap, rock, Heavy metal, pop music, Rai, dance music, electronic, industrial, etc...) and traditional music (extra-european folkloric music). You doubt it? Well, no offense but that's just absurd, there are countless evidences of this. There are entries in almost every music encyclopedia( example :"Popular music" in The New Oxford Companion to Music, Volume 2: K-Z, Oxford University Press, p.1467) , there are also scholar encyclopedia exclusively dedicated to popular music (as opposed to music encyclopedias who generally tend to focus on art music repertory and theory), for example in my university we got the Oxford encyclopedia of popular music, and there are even musicologist journals dealing with popular music like Journal of popular music (Whose co-editor is btw referential musicologist Dr Nicola (nikki) Dibbens)[1].

So I'm sorry, I see no reason to question the existence of this article. Pop music is genre whereas popular music is music category. Btw, I'm french and musicologist, and I can assure you that the term "musique populaire" in french refers to the same distinction in musicology. Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 13:27, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

If the term "Popular Music" has a clear definition then that definition should be in the article. Saying, "not art or traditional" is a terrible way to define something. Who came up with these three categories anyway? They're kind of offensive: "Art=Euro-centric, smart music", Traditional="Old, and not from white people", and Popular="Music people like, but isn't old or smart." Sounds to me like a terrible way to categorize music. It sounds like a bunch of college snobs separating music into: the music us smart people listen to, the music those foreigners listen to, and the music those dumb common people listen to. I'd be interested in knowing who came up with these distinctions. Noit (talk) 16:02, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Don’t take it wrong but I strongly advice you to get informed of what you are talking about before assuming wrong things about specialists. No offence but your interpretation of this distinction is very simplistic and biased. You are caricaturing things. Things are not that simple. They just can’t be reduced to elitist or racist considerations as you seem to fallaciously imply.

When referring to this classification I absolutely don’t imply that popular music is a category of lower music as opposed to art music. Absolutely not. While I like any type of music, I’m primarily a fan of popular music.(as partially shown in my user’s page) So how can you explain this? Do you really think I would try to impose elitist views to belittle some of my favourite music? This is a nonsense!

1. Art music term doesn’t necessarily refer to European music exclusively. Any classical music from any culture is considered as art music. So no, it’s not eurocentric view. Beside there are countless examples of European art music getting influence both from popular music (Gershwin, Bernstein, Milhaud, D’Indy) and traditional music (Steve Reich, John Cage, Debussy, Messiaen, Ravel, Bartok). This tendency has been pushed further with post-modernist movements.

2. Noone said art music is about being smart. Art music notion is concerned with written tradition and advanced structural, aesthetic and theoretical considerations. It’s not about being smart per se; it’s about focussing on compositional advanced techniques and certain aesthetic considerations. Yes, Intellectualism may be a consideration of such a music. (modernist music like serialism makes indeed heavy emphasis on intellectualism and elitism). But this not necessarily a general character of the music. Yes, Art music is more exigent in terms of compositional techniques and theories. But that’s all.

3. Yes in contrast, popular music is freer and more instinctive in terms of composition. It doesn’t rely extensively on theories and compositional exigencies (complex techniques strict academic counterpoint or Fugue for example). Also popular music relies on recording rather than on written tradition. Also it’s more direct and more accessible. But it doesn’t mean accessibility is wrong or something.

But being technical or more direct or freer doesn’t make any art superior or smarter. Authenticity and sensitivity for me are better criteria to judge music. And such criteria can be found in any of these three categories.

4. Traditional music more exactly refers to any folkloric music which is not characterized by a written tradition. While this category concerns extra-european native music because there are countless for the world is large, it also includes many european folkoric regional music characterized by rote transmission.

So your accusations of racism and elitism are completely groundless,.

It sounds like a bunch of college snobs separating music into: the music us smart people listen to, the music those foreigners listen to, and the music those dumb common people listen to. I'd be interested in knowing who came up with these distinctions

Sorry, but your assumptions are completely wrong. How can you explain that so many referential musicologists like Dibbens or Walser are precisely interested into popular music, write many articles, books or even encyclopaedias. Even specialists of classical music like Wilfrid Mellers wrote on Popular music (like the beatles or Bob Dylan). Also traditional extra European music has been the focus of countless musicologists like Judith Becker, Stephen Davies, Jean Jacques Nattiez. Such ethnomusicolgists are known to fight against all type of ethnocentrist and racist prejudices concerning music.

I'd be interested in knowing who came up with these distinctions

You seem to believe some snob scholar recently decided to came up with this distinction just to legitimate his tastes as superior and belittle others. Sorry, but that’s not that simple, this distinction has existed for years and years. I got books from early 20th century that already referred to this distinction with popular music.

This is not one person, nor a bunch of persons; this is a commonly admitted distinction among specialists of music. Even though everybody agrees that borders between each others may be blurred (take minimalists and post-modernist borrowing extensively to traditional music and popular music and vice-versa popular artists like Franck Zappa working with art music composers like Pierre Boulez. )

Beside unlike you seem to believe musicologists are not like some common reviewer that judges music with nothing but his personal impressions. Musicologists refer to methodological tools to make studies.

Yes, sure some may use this distinction in some elitist views. You find idiots everywhere. But nothing like this is implied here. I like each type of music.

Anyway these categories are just global structures for orientation, they are not meant to stereotype or belittle certain forms of music. Nor do they mean to be absolute references. Plus there are always exceptions. Music is human, and so doesn’t always fall under conceptual labels (for example certain music coming from Art music like Satie or minimalist are not characterized by complex compositional considerations ) Also there are countless cases where popular music gets influences from extra-European tradition and vice versa. Frédérick Duhautpas (talk) 18:37, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Great. What you wrote here is already much better than what is in the article. All of the names you've mentioned should be in the article since they are helping to define how you see "Popular Music". Actually, although I know this wont be well received, now that you've explained it, I think the best would be to have one article on the distilling of music into Art, Traditional, and Popular. That would be the clearest. Is there a name for this type of classification?

And as for suggesting that I should do more research, that's why I'm on wikipedia. I'm just the dumb guy, and I don't understand the article. So I shout and argue and hope that people more knowledgeable than me will fix it up so the next dumb guy doesn't get confused like I did. Noit (talk) 20:13, 9 August 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not the place for original research or unverified claims. Hyacinth (talk) 03:04, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

Who's talking about original research or unverifiable claims? I don't know what you're referring to. If you can't better explain the concept of Popular Music without original research then I really don't know what to tell you anymore. It certainty tend credence to my claim that the topic doesn't really exist. Noit (talk) 04:25, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

material from the "pop music" article

the article that's supposed to be about the genre called pop music currently includes a lot of material that's actually about popular music in general, so i'm transferring it here in case someone wants to work it into this article. the first delivery, with reflist, is below. hope it's helpful ... Sssoul (talk) 06:54, 23 December 2008 (UTC)

delivery 1

An important turning point for popular music was the "speed war" of the late 1940s: a battle among the record labels of the day to enforce their own standard. The dominating format, the 10 inches (25 cm) 78 revolutions per minute (rpm) disc, was challenged in 1948 by the new 33 ⅓ rpm 12 inches (30 cm), and then in 1949 by the 45 rpm 7 inches (18 cm). Next came the switch in the material records were made of, from shellac to vinyl; the new component, combined with the slow 33 ⅓ rpm playing speed, allowed recordings to extend their duration further than was previously possible, and gave birth to the long playing record (LP). Changes continued with the invention of the multitrack tape recorder, permitting completely electronic studio recordings for the first time, and the advent of stereophonic sound in 1958.

These technical advances brought about a recorded music that was standardised, of better quality than ever before, and most importantly, easier and less costly to produce, which meant it could be offered to the public at consistently lower prices. In just one year, 1954 to 1955, the average selling price of an LP in the US dropped from US$5.95 to $3.98. Cheaper records ledto greater demand for record players, which in turn became less expensive and continued to boost sales.

These changes in sound recording, coupled with the improved economic circumstances of the era, led the general public to purchase records like never before. Music ceased to be a minority ware with limited following and became a mass-market commodity with an enormous audience. The new financial prospects and opportunities for secure investment attracted capital, which began applying commercial merchandising techniques to music: advertising, tie-ins, cross-media marketing and others. The most infamous of these is the payola, whereby record labels pay radio stations or disc jockeys to play particular songs, artificially influencing their popularity.

The emerging role of investors in the music industry led to tensions between the creative and the productive sides of the business, with the former accusing the latter of excessive concern with commercial success. In many cases the artists won and retained the idiosyncrasies of their style.

Pop did not have as easy a start in the United Kingdom as in the United States due to intense regulation of radio play, known in the day as needle time. This legislation required the BBC, the only broadcaster legally allowed to play music, to do so for only a few hours a day for fear of damaging the revenues of the music industry by allowing the public to hear songs without purchasing them. The ordinance lasted until the launch of Radio 1 in 1967.

Evolution

In contrast to genres with clear origins and a traceable evolution, pop developed, and continues to expand, as a haphazard merging of styles. Pop is an amalgam of successive fashions, of elements of many differing styles that have been successful over the years and have ended up incorporated into the genre. This section introduces the most significant tunes of each decade, and shows the progression of pop to its current form. Because performers of all varieties have released tracks that can be classified as pop, this article analyses songs, and does not list names of acts, bands, musicians or singers. For these please see the List of artists who reached number one on the Hot 100 (U.S.), List of artists who reached number one on the UK Singles Chart and List of artists by total number of U.S. number-one singles.

1950s

At the start of the 1950s songs in the pop genre were crossover styles from the standard formats of the day. In country music, instrumental soloing was de-emphasised and more prominent vocals added, commonly backed by a string section and vocal chorus, as exemplified in "(How Much Is) That Doggie In The Window", which became a hit in both the US and the UK in 1953. Two years later American folk music entered the pop spectrum with a modern version of a traditional tune, "The Yellow Rose of Texas" (1955).

Vocal performers of the great American songbook classics, crooners and big band singers, incorporated elements of other styles and orchestral enhancements to their repertoire, giving them greater formal complexity than their traditional antecedents. The Marc Blitzstein arrangement of "Mack the Knife" is an emblematic example, topping the charts on both sides of the Atlantic in 1954, as did "Singing the Blues" in late 1956 and early 1957.

This was also the decade of the advent of rock and roll, a massively influential genre that spawned innumerable changes in the social and cultural fabric of the US and the world. The convulsion began when "Rock Around the Clock" crowned the charts in the spring and summer of 1955, and continued with "Heartbreak Hotel", All Shook Up and "Tutti Frutti"

Previously regional or niche formats became mainstream for the first time, some going on to become genres in their own right. Latin music entered the general consciousness with "Cherry Pink (and Apple Blossom White)" in 1955, and Italian popular music with "Nel blu dipinto di blu" in 1958.

In Europe, pop music was to show its increasing popularity with the arrival of the Eurovision Song Contest in 1956. This competition would span the continent and continue on for the next five decades. The main idea behind the show, which was televised throughout Europe (and other parts of the world), was to unite the various nations through popular music. Many successful songs emerged from the contest over the years, but few were significant outside of Europe.

1960s

The decade kicked off a style that is still recorded today, the novelty song, combining humorous or parodic lyrics and simple, catchy melodies: "Itsy Bitsy Teenie Weenie Yellow Polka Dot Bikini" (1960). In 1961 a new format arose around close vocal harmonies and lyrics reflecting the Californian relationship with surfing, girls and cars: Surf pop. This very successful style is epitomised by tunes like "Surfin' USA" (1963), "California Girls" (1965) and "Good Vibrations" (1966). An unusual combination of minor chords and an unexpected synthesizer formed the basis of one of the greatest hits of the first half of the decade, "Runaway" (1961), whilst in the second half a four-note electric bass riff offsetting a simple melodic arrangement brought commercial and critical success to "Windy" (1967).

The music that had radiated from the US to the rest of the World in the previous decade bounced back in this one, bringing with it nuances, variations and completely new styles. In the United Kingdom teens developed a feel for rock and roll and the blues, blending them with local traditions like skiffle and giving rise to music they could relate to and perform with conviction. Youths with electric guitars began joining beat bands and writing and playing up-tempo melodic pop. Some of these enjoyed success only in Europe ("Apache" (1960), "The Young Ones" (1962), "Keep On Running" (1965) and "Where Do You Go To (My Lovely)" (1969)), as others crossed the Atlantic and became the British invasion (1964 to 1967), delivering a whole new range of influences to US pop with songs like "I Want to Hold Your Hand", "Can't Buy Me Love" and "Downtown" (all 1964), "Yesterday" (1965), "Yellow Submarine" (1966), "To Sir, with Love" (1967), "Hey Jude" (1968) and "Get Back" (1969).

African American music broke into popular culture in a big way in this decade, bringing with it new grooves and tempos, such as doo-wop, a style giving prevalence to melody-dominated homophony and vocal-based harmonies; rhythm and blues, a combination of jazz, gospel and blues; Motown, soul music with a prominent and melodic bass line, a distinctive chord structure and a call-and-response singing style:

"I Can't Stop Loving You" (1962)
"He's So Fine" (1963)
"Hello Dolly!" (1964)
"Baby Love" (1964) "Reach Out I'll Be There" (1966)
"Respect" (1968)
"(Sittin' on) the Dock of the Bay" (1968)
"I Can't Get Next to You" (1969)

In 1965 Raybert Productions set out to create a pop band from scratch, selecting the members by their looks, dancing ability and appeal to different personalities of fan, rather than musical prowess. The company controlled every aspect of the group, from choice of music to individual behaviours, and guided them to extraordinary success in music, television and cinema. This type of prefabricated band was termed manufactured pop and is the precursor of boy bands and girl groups. The hit "I'm a Believer" (1967) was soon followed by a number one from another manufactured group, "Sugar, Sugar" in 1969. Many new and different styles of popular music developed during the 1960s, in the aftermath of rock & roll - see the article on Popular music.

In the mid-1960s Sonny & Cher's smash hit single "I Got You Babe" became a defining recording of the early hippie countercultural movement and it helped them to become pop icons. A year later Cher, as a solo artist, released one of the most famous pop song ever recorded: "Bang Bang (My Baby Shot Me Down)".

1970s

Singer-songwriters and other folk-based artists were the biggest contributors to the pop genre in the first half of this decade, from 1970's "Bridge over Troubled Water" and "(They Long to Be) Close to You"(although this was not actually a singer-songwriter effort, but a was written by one of the last remnants of the Tin-Pan-Alley/Brill Building days, Burt Bacharach and Hal David), through 1971's "It's Too Late", to 1972's "American Pie", "Alone Again (Naturally)" and "Without You".

The main influence in the second half of the decade came from disco, a dance-oriented style with soaring, reverberated vocals, a steady beat and prominent, syncopated electric bass lines: "Disco Lady" and "Play That Funky Music" (both 1976), "I Just Want to Be Your Everything" (1977), "Night Fever" and "Stayin' Alive" (both 1978), "Bad Girls", "Le Freak", "Take Me Home" and "YMCA" (all 1979).

Country music re-entered pop in 1973 with "Tie a Yellow Ribbon Round the Ole Oak Tree" and in 1975 with "Rhinestone Cowboy", whilst the African American rhythms that had so affected the genre in the previous decade were still producing hits and expanding limits in this one. Disco, an almost entirely African American creation, was joined in the charts by protest songs ("War" (1970)), soulful ballads ("The First Time Ever I Saw Your Face" (1972), "Killing Me Softly with His Song" and "Let's Get It On" (both 1973)), and by more upbeat compositions ("Best of My Love" (1977)).

Sounds from the UK continued to permeate pop music, with pop rock songs like "Maggie May" (1971), "Da Ya Think I'm Sexy?" (1978) and "My Sharona" (1979); blues-based tunes in the style of "In the Summertime" (1970); and simple pop ditties such as "Save Your Kisses for Me", "Don't Go Breaking My Heart" and "Silly Love Songs" (all 1976).

In the early 1970s Cher released other pop hit-singles: "Gypsys, Tramps & Thieves", "Half-Breed" and "Dark Lady" that established her status as a pop icon. Diana Ross released "Ain't No Mountain High Enough", "Touch Me In The Morning", "Do You Know Where You're Going To", and "Love Hangover". These for releases helped make her the most successful female singer of the 1970s.

In the same way that Britain contributed to the genre since the 1960s, pop artists started appearing in other nations in the 1970s, some with surprising longevity and significance.

Special mention must go to Sweden for ABBA who took over the music world with songs like "Waterloo" (1974), "Fernando" (1976), "Take a Chance on Me" (1978), "Dancing Queen", "The Name Of The Game" and to Boney M for the hits "Daddy Cool" (1976), "Ma Baker" (1977) and "Rivers of Babylon" (1978).

1990s

Many popular songs came from female artists. A few of the most significant are "Hold On", "Nothing Compares 2 U" and "Vogue" (all 1990), "Rush Rush" (1991), "Save the Best for Last" (1992), "The Power of Love" and "Hero" (both 1993), "Creep" (1994), "Waterfalls" (1995), "Wannabe" "Always Be My Baby" and "Un-Break My Heart" (all 1996), "You Were Meant for Me" (late 1996 and early 1997), "How Do I Live" (1997), "Ray of Light" and "Believe" (both 1998), and "If You Had My Love", "...Baby One More Time", "Have You Ever? and "Waiting For Tonight" (all in 1999).

Following-up on the positive results of the eighties, the music and film industries continued to benefit each other in this decade, including pop songs in movie soundtracks and releasing them as singles. Defining hits of the genre include "The Shoop Shoop Song" from 1990's Mermaids; "It Must Have Been Love" from 1990's Pretty Woman; "I Wanna Sex You Up" from New Jack City and "(Everything I Do) I Do It for You" from Robin Hood: Prince of Thieves (both 1991); "End of the Road" from Boomerang and "I Will Always Love You" from The Bodyguard (both 1992); "Can't Help Falling in Love" from 1993's Sliver; "Gangsta's Paradise" from Dangerous Minds, "Kiss from a Rose" from Batman Forever (both 1995), "Because You Loved Me" from Up Close & Personal (1996), and "My Heart Will Go On" from Titanic (1997).

Grunge and alternative music also pushed the boundaries of pop music in the 1990s. Most notably, Nirvana's song "Smells Like Teen Spirit" highlighted a mix of loud, garage band style punk rock ethic and catchy, pop music hooks and melodies that made a huge slash in the mainstream.

Dance music broke out of a specialised section of the market into pop in this decade, with hits such as "Gonna Make You Sweat (Everybody Dance Now)" (1991) and "The Sign" (1993). Simultaneously, African American influences continued with traditional pop and hip hop-inspired tunes. Indicative examples of the first are "Black or White" (1991) and "You Are Not Alone" (1995), notable instances of the second being "Baby Got Back" and "Jump" (both 1992), "On Bended Knee" and "I'll Make Love to You" (both 1994), and "I'll Be Missing You" and "Can't Nobody Hold Me Down" (both 1997).

Pop became truly international in the nineties, with hits coming from diverse and distant locations:

• Germany, "The Power" (1990), "Rhythm Is a Dancer" (1992) and "Mr Vain" (1993);
• France, "Désenchantée" (1991)"
• the UK, "The One and Only" (1991), "Ebeneezer Goode" (1992), "Things Can Only Get Better" and "Love Is All Around" (both 1994), "Spaceman" (1996), plus one of the best selling singles of all time, "Candle in the Wind 1997";
• Spain, "Macarena" (1996) ;
• Italy, "Blue (Da Ba Dee)" (1998);
• the Netherlands", "Boom Boom Boom Boom" (1998); and
• Australia, "Truly Madly Deeply" (1998).
• Puerto Rico, Latin pop singer Ricky Martin. His mega hits "Livin' la Vida Loca" (1999) & "The Cup of Life" (1998) and "Maria" (1995);

2000–present

In a similar vein to the previous decade, female singers had a big influence on the pop genre in the 2000s, with soulful ballads, hip hop pieces and dance tracks: "Music", "Genie in a Bottle", "Oops!... I Did It Again" (both 2000); "What a Girl Wants", "Fallin'","Love Don't Cost a Thing", "All for You" and "Can't Get You out of My Head" (all 2001); "Foolish", "Dirrty" , "What about Us?" (2002); "Crazy in Love" and "White Flag" (both 2003); "Beautiful", "If I Ain't Got You", "Toxic", Left Outside Alone, and "1, 2 Step" (all 2004); "Hung Up", "We Belong Together", "Hollaback Girl" and "Since U Been Gone" (all 2005); "Girlfriend", "Bleeding Love", "Gimme More", "Piece of Me","With Love", "Ain't No Other Man", "Umbrella", and "Say It Right" (all 2007); , "Disturbia","Womanizer", and "Circus" (all 2008).

Traditional rock and pop rock made forays into pop with consecrated artists and newcomers both introducing songs to the genre: "Smooth", "Maria Maria" and "It's My Life" (all 2000), "Drops of Jupiter (Tell Me)" and "Stuck in a Moment You Can't Get Out Of" (both 2001), "This Love" (2003), and "Boulevard of Broken Dreams" (2005), "Burnin' Up (2008)." Entirely digital productions integrated new technology and sounds, and as electronic dance music entered the mainstream, pop artists started using producers and remixers who contributed their styles to the genre: "Feel Good Inc." (2005) and "Crazy" (2006) are good examples.

Once more, African Americans contributed heartily to pop with diverse styles. Some hits were hip hop-based, such as "I'm Real" and "Dilemma" (2001 and 2002 respectively), "In da Club" and "Ignition" (both 2003), "Yeah!" (2004), "Candy Shop" and "Don't Phunk with My Heart" (both 2005). Other chart-toppers were variations on reggae beats ("It Wasn't Me" (2000) and "Get Busy" (2003)) or more traditional rap compositions ("The Way You Move" (2003)).

The international appeal of pop was evident in the new millennium, with artists from around the world influencing the genre and local variants merging with the mainstream. Latin pop was successful with songs from Spain, "Hero" (late 2001/early 2002), "The Ketchup Song" (2002); and Colombia, "Whenever, Wherever" (2002) and "Hips Don't Lie" (2006). Russia made its breakthrough to the international charts with "All the Things She Said" (2002) which even topped the UK Singles Chart, while Moldavia hit the European charts with "Dragostea din Tei" (2003) and Romania with "Kylie" (2006).