Talk:Princess of Wales

It is stated in this article that Diana, Princess of Wales was the first non-Princess to hold the title Princess of Wales.. forgive me if i'm wrong but what about Joan of Kent or Anne Neville. They too were not Princesses (or were they? i'm not sure). huw

Princess of Wales vs Duchess of York

In that case we should all have referred to Diana as The Princess Charles, Princess of Wales because she would still have been The Princess Charles aswell as Duchess of Cornwall and Duchess of Rothesay, Countess of Chester, Countess of Carrick, Baroness Renfrew, Princess of Scotland and Lady of the Isle. She was not the Princess of Wales at the time of her death. Buckingham Palace clearly explained that she would retain the STYLE of Princess of Wales and would not be THE Princess of Wales for that is the title of the wife of the Prince of Wales (which is now Camilla). Her actual style was arguably Lady Diana, Princess of Wales because she was the daughter of an Earl. She was still recognized as a member of the Royal family but was NOT the Princess of Wales or held the style of 'Royal Highness' or 'Grace'. She would not have been Queen on Charles's accession because she was divorced! Wallis Simpson was denied the title 'Royal Highness' but was NEVER Wallis, Duchess of Windsor. She was always and only Her Grace The Princess Edward, the Duchess of Windsor or simply Her Grace The Duchess of Windsor. Sarah, Duchess of York however is simply Sarah, Duchess of York

Diana, Princess of Wales was still The Princess of Wales at the time of her death. Please look the British offcial webpage [[1]] where is very clear that Diana was still a Princess. She did not loose her title beacuse she was the Mother of the future King. And in this Case was not applied "for ex-wives of peers" beacuse Charles is a ROYAL PRINCE. The title Princess of Wales is take at the time of the Anglican Marriage not Civil Marriage so when Diana, died she was still the wife (in Anglican Terms) of The Prince of Wales. So When Diana Spencer divorced the Prince of Wales in 1996 she did not lose her title, Princess of Wales. She merely lost the prefix HRH; thus assuming the title Diana, Princess of Wales. Was the same case when The Duchess of Windsor was prevented of the using of the Royal Highness Style. She was officially syled Wallis, Duchess of Windsor and with that name she was buired. offcourse she never divorced from the Prince Edward. At the time of her dead Diana, Princess of Wales was still The Princess of Wales and she was also a Member of the British Royal Family, she continued living at Kensington Palace and had her office there. Is the same case of Sarah, Duchess of York. She is still The Duchess of York. In history there are three women who where prevented of the using of royal highness style and they continued to have there titles as the divorce statlement.

The Princess of Wales, Diana,Princess of Wales The Duchess of York, Sarah, Duchess of York The Duchess of Windsor, Wallis, Duchess of Windsor.

through this article and although it was of much interest to me, I realized it did not have a corresponding Duchesses of York article. As so many Princesses of Wales had initially been Duchesses of York or even that many senior royals had been Duchesses of York, I thought it only appropriate to make that corresponding Duchess of York article. You might like to look at it. --User:huwwilson650 23:55, 23 August 2006 (GMT)

If "a female heir to the throne is not known by the title of Princess of Wales", does she have any Wales-related title before becoming queen regnant?

No, she doesnt. The title for the eldest dau of a monarch (heiress or not) is Princess Royal BUT if thats already taken by another individual (eg eldest dau of the previous monarch) then they dont have any title as such apart from that they were born with, unless a new title were to be created for them or they married into one. Wales patronage is reserved for the eldest son alone, as are the dukedoms of Cornwall and Rothesay. For example, the queens regnant were - Mary I (known as The Lady Mary before becoming queen) Elizabeth I ( " The Lady Elizabeth " ) Mary II (" Princess of Orange " through marriage) Anne ( " Princess George of Denmark) Victoria (" Princess Victoria of Kent ") Elizabeth II ( " Princess Elizbaeth, Duchess of Edinburgh through marriage to Duke of Edinburgh)

So in fact none of the queens regnant were known as Princess Royal!

Was Mary I not created prince of Wales in 1525 and keep that title until 1532?

Bare in mind that under the British laws of succession, a female can only ever be "Heir Presumptive", and never "Heir Apparent" - theoretically, at any time, their right of inheritance may be superceded by the birth of a male.

The title "Princess Royal" is given *sometimes* to the eldest daughter of the monarch - there is no connection between the title and the holder's position in the Line of Succession, and there is no guarantee that the title *will* be given to the eldest daughter - it isn't automatic (eg the current holder, The Pricess Anne, only received it in 1987, at the age of 37).

Mary was "The Princess Mary" (ie princess in her own right) until 1533, when the marriage between Henry VIII and Catherine of Aragon was annulled - at this time, she was declared illegitimate, and became known as "The Lady Mary". The same is the case with Elizabeth (Henry's marriage with Ann Bolyne was annulled the day before her execution). --Thievinggypsy 14:06, 18 September 2005 (UTC)

This is true but her father Henry VIII also created her The Princess of Wales and this is the first and last time this has been allowed to happen! Henry the VIII did make Mary Princess of Wales in 1525 when it became obvious that Katherine of Aragon and himself would be childless. She was sent to Ludlow and was there with her own court until 1527. I have numerous sources, including David Starkeys books and documentarys.

Err... can you cite a source for that?--Jayboy2005 13:15, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

It is not impossible for an heiress apparent to occurr in the British succession, it just has never happened. If a monarch has a male heir and such heir produces a lone daughter, and then said male heir dies, then such grand daughter would be an heiress apparent. Theoretically, the Sovereign could create her "princess of Wales." I don't see hw there would be a proscription on the monarchs prerogative to do that, since in that case, it would create no danger that the title would be separated from the Crown. Up until now, however, that has never happened, and all women who have succeeded to the throne have come to the throne under whatever titles circumstances have provided, just like the many men who were heirs presumptive when they came to the throne. davedoug99

Jtdirl - can you clarify why you object to my statement that Diana kept the style "Princess of Wales" after her divorce? If you are correct about her forfeiting the title, the Wikipedia entry on "Diana Princess of Wales" also needs to be corrected. MJT

Because, as Buckingham Palace, Downing Street and the Lord Chancellor made clear at the time she did not. The article is also correct. As it says

From her marriage in 1981 to her divorce in 1996 she was styled Her Royal Highness The Princess of Wales, and after her divorce in 1996, Diana, Princess of Wales.

Diana ceased to be Princess of Wales the moment she ceased to be married to the Princess of Wales, as it was not hers by right but purely by marriage. She then reverted to the normal style for ex-wives of peers, namely <name>, <former title>.

That form never ever means that one is still the holder of the title. It means that one once held it prior to a divorce. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 19:28, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

Made change in relation to Jayboy2005's point (I edited it before I saw his point, but he is correct, in such a case, the woman would be the heiress presumptive. --zev_steinhardt

Changed wording in opening paragraph from "Bestowed" to "held by", as "bestowed" implies it's personally given to an individual like a dukedom when it's given automatically.

Current Photo of Diana

I haven't seen any discussion here, (Perhaps it was cleaned up?) as to why there is a picture of Diana rather than the current Princess of Wales on this page? I see that apparently there was a picture of the current Princess of Wales (Yes, I know she uses one of her subsidiary titles) but she *IS* the *LEGAL* Princess of Wales...? Dphilp75 (talk) 22:55, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Who is the exception?

It was also suggested to King George VI to invest Queen Elizabeth II (when still a princess) as Princess of Wales in her own right when it became evident the King was not going to have a son. The King, however, rejected this suggestion making the point that it was a title held, in all but one case, by the wife of the Prince of Wales and as such would degrade her right as a Princess of the United Kingdom

Who is the Princess of Wales who didn't hold the title by virtue of her marriage to her husband? As far as I was aware they all got it from their husbads.

Queen Mary I was the Princess of Wales who did not hold her title by virtue of marriage i suspect. I did hear speculation that she was the Princess of Wales when it became apparent that she would not superceeded by a son.

Mary I was not created Princess of Wales. Neither was Elizabeth I. They may have been sent to Ludlow Castle (the traditional seat of the Prince of Wales), and may have been treated as Princess of Wales, but they were never actually created or invested with the title. Prsgoddess187 23:36, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Mary I was called the Princess of Wales, and given many of the royal prerogatives of a Prince of Wales, but I don't know if she was ever formally created Princess of Wales.

I suspect that there won't be a Princess of Wales in her own right unless the rules governing the succession are changed to allow absolute primogeniture.

...or if it happens that a Prince of Wales fathers only female children and dies before the king - in that case, the eldest daughter of the monarch's eldest son would be the heir apparent as she couldn't be superceded by the birth of any male. Surtsicna (talk) 20:04, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Diana Spencer (Loss of title in 1996 is incorrect)

When Diana Spencer divorced the Prince of Wales in 1996 she did not lose her title, Princess of Wales. She merely lost the prefix HRH; thus assuming the title Diana, Princess of Wales. Had Diana subsequently remarried then she would no longer have been entitled to use even this title. The situation is similar with Sarah, Duchess of York. Sarah Ferguson remained (and remains so to this day) the Duchess of York upon her divorce from the Duke of York; again she lost only the HRH prefix. However, were Sarah Ferguson to remarry she would lose her title. Accordingly, I have removed references to Diana losing her Princess of Wales title in 1996, as this is constitutionally incorrect.

The above is wrong. Diana DID lose her HRH AND her title of "Princess of Wales" upon her divorce, her new style was based on precedents of divorced peeresses. Upon her divorce, Diana was no longer The Princess Of Wales, and became instead Diana, Princess of Wales - it is important to note here that "Princess of Wales" acted as her surname, NOT as any Royal title - this is why she would have ceased becoming Diana, Princess of Wales upon remarriage, since her surname would have changed. The Princess of Wales is, by definition, the wife of the Prince of Wales. Diana lost the title Princess of Wales because she ceased to be married to the Prince of Wales - moreover, had Diana still been alive & the prince remarried, his NEW wife would have been The Princess of Wales. The same here is true of Sarah, Duchess of York - she is not The Duchess of York, that title goes only to the wife of the Duke of York - Sarah would NOT be addressed as "Your Grace" as she is not a duchess, just as Diana was not a princess after divorce - all titles she acquired from her husband and she gave them up on divorce. Accordingly, have reversed changed made by above user.

Adding Camilla to the list...

I was wondering if Camilla, The Duchess of Cornwall should be added to the list of Princesses of Wales at the beginning of the article. Technically, she is in fact The Princess of Wales by right of her marriage to Charles, Prince of Wales. It seems that leaving her off of the list, merely because she doesn't use the title, is a little POV. Just to add, Camilla is listed in the "Princess of Wales infobox" Wanted to bring it up here and get a consensus before adding it to the article. Any ideas? Prsgoddess187 13:42, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Camilla was on the list, as the number of POVs listed shows (ie, 10). However one anonymous user has been mounting a one-man campaign to delete it. the most recent deletion on March 23 I've reinserted her yet again and made some textual adaptions. If that plonker deletes the name again, revert. They have in the past been blocked for rampant POVing of articles (usually involving attacks on Camilla) despite appeals to stop. FearÉIREANN\^(caint) 15:37, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Sounds like a sound plan. Since she is the Princess of Wales, she should be on the list. Prsgoddess187 18:09, 9 April 2006 (UTC)

Queen Elizabeth II - First Princess of Wales in Her Own Right?

"When a title was sought for the future Queen Elizabeth II, the possibility of investing her as Princess of Wales in her own right was raised. This suggestion was rejected, because Princess of Wales is a courtesy title held by the wife of the Prince of Wales. If it were used by Princess Elizabeth, it would have degraded her right as a Princess of the United Kingdom unless Letters Patent or Legislation were introduced to the contrary."

I question the validity of the above statement. If, as she was then, Princess Elizabeth was created Princess of Wales in her own right, it may have been interpreted that she had taken on the rank of a spouse of a Prince, but this would not have degraded her title, as the spouse of a Prince is of higher rank than a Princess in her own right. For example, although HRH The Countess of Wessex is not a Princess in her own right, but through marriage, she is ranked higher than HRH The Princess Royal as the Countess takes on her husbands rank which is higher than that of the Princess Royal.

Eleanor de Montfort - Princess of Wales

The amendments to the Princesses of Wales site regarding the Welsh Princesses are, I feel, rather misleading. Gwenllian of Wales (born June 1282) did not have the title Princess of Wales. I agree that she should not be included in the list. But, as the wife of the Prince of Wales, her mother Eleanor de Montfort most definately should be.

Following the wedding ceremony at Worcester on St Edwards Day 1278, Eleanor de Montfort became officially known as Princess of Wales and Lady of Snowdon. (see Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1272-81, 306; CPR, 1281-92, 11; Calendar of Ancient Correspondance, 75-76; Foedera I, ii, 576, 584, 587). Eleanor signed herself as such; her cousin King Edward acknowledged her as such, and that is the title by which she is remembered. BrynLlywelyn 17:15, 1 December 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Cam2.jpg

Image:Cam2.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 04:27, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

The facts?

I've made some changes to the wording regarding Camilla which I think are fair. It is wrong, I think, to say that she "chooses" not to use the title Princess of Wales. My understanding is that Buckingham Palace made the decision for her. If there is any evidence that it was her decision, by all means let it be cited. Secondly, it is misleading to say that she is the first Princess of Wales not to use the title. We count Anne Neville as a Princess of Wales, but there is no evidence that she ever used the title (as is correctly stated in the article). Deb (talk) 21:49, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Roles and responsibilities?

Does anyone else find this section a little off... Seems to be a tirade against something, and not really a list/paragraph about the roles/responsibilities. Prsgoddess187 11:21, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

Current Photo of Diana

I haven't seen any discussion here, (Perhaps it was cleaned up?) as to why there is a picture of Diana rather than the current Princess of Wales on this page? I see that apparently there was a picture of the current Princess of Wales (Yes, I know she uses one of her subsidiary titles) but she *IS* the *LEGAL* Princess of Wales...? Dphilp75 (talk) 22:57, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Changing the Format

Who is in favor of changing this to a wikitable list like Princess of Asturias and Princess of Orange? There will be less info but we can put these as footnotes. --Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 01:03, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Other Titles of the Princesses of Wales

I'm a history channel addict but I must admit that I had never heard of Princesses whose full official titles included their husband's christian names: "...the wife of The Prince of Wales assumes the styles and titles – Her Royal Highness The Princess (husband’s Christian name) of the United Kingdom...". At first I thought this was a typo but then saw the form used on the discussion page by people who seemed to know of which they spoke. I'd be interested to hear any more background on this practice.

Also...there are some parts of the Discussion, particularly at the top of the page, that are tough to read...was an earlier portion of discussion removed? It seems very choppy and to be making reference to previous exchanges that don't seem to be there.PurpleChez (talk) 02:49, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

You've not heard of Princess Michael of Kent? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 23:42, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Irrelevant discussion about succession to the throne

Under the form of male-preference primogeniture in use in the United Kingdom, while a daughter, sister, or other female relative of a monarch may be heir presumptive, none have ever been heir apparent, since it has always (theoretically) been possible for the monarch to beget or bear a male heir who would displace any female heir, even an older sister. In theory, a woman could become heir apparent if she was the brotherless eldest child of a deceased heir apparent; this situation has, however, never arisen in the history of the United Kingdom.

There are cases where the monarch or his or her spouse is too elderly, or suffers from some other disability which practically prevents the birth of a legitimate heir; in such cases, a woman may be de facto heir apparent, as was the case during the reign of William IV, when his evident heir was his niece Princess Victoria. However, the law admits of no impediment to the potential production of future heirs other than death, and Victoria was legally only heiress presumptive until she succeeded to the throne.

While all that seems to be true, I do not see the relevance of any of it to this article, which is about the Princess of Wales. Nobody has ever suggested Princesses of Wales have any sort of entitlement to the throne, so why is the question of succession to the throne being canvassed here at all? -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 23:48, 29 April 2011 (UTC)

Husband naming problem

When a title was sought for the future Elizabeth II, the possibility of investing her as Princess of Wales in her own right was raised. This suggestion was rejected, because Princess of Wales is a courtesy title held by the wife of the Prince of Wales. If it were used by Princess Elizabeth, it would have degraded her right as a Princess of the United Kingdom unless Letters Patent or Legislation were introduced to the contrary. Furthermore, if the then Princess Elizabeth had been given the title of Princess of Wales, there would have been the problem of what to call her future husband. Therefore, King George VI decided not to give his elder daughter the title.

Husbands of princesses, queens, and peeresses and dames in their own right, do not acquire any title by virtue of their marriage. Husbands of princesses and queens are often given a separate title, completely unrelated to the title held by their wife (e.g. Duke of Edinburgh, Earl of Snowdon), but this is far from a universal practice (e.g. Mark Phillips, Timothy Laurence). So, what is this "problem" of what to call Elizabeth's husband? Citation, please. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 23:48, 29 April 2011 (UTC)