Talk:Pyrrhus of Epirus

What Greece are we talking about ?

Greece as a term was not invented at the time and each kingdom was attacking the other.Epirus was an independent state/nation with a clear Epirotan identity.Let us stick to history and leave politics aside.The first Greek state was a brittish invention of the 19th century romantics.--70.48.117.59 (talk) 17:13, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

Greatest General

I have heard the order of Hannibal's greatest generals as Pyrrhus first, Alexander second, and I have heard it from other sources as the reverse. Can anyone confirm from the original Livy quote which way around it was?

According to Plutarch, Hannibal considered Pyrrhus the most skilled general, followed by Scipio and then himself: "Hannibal of all great commanders esteemed Pyrrhus for skill and conduct the first, Scipio the second, and himself the third."

According to Plutarch (Flamininus 21.3-4) the following exchange took place between Scipio Africanus and Hannibal following the Battle of Zama: "When they fell to discussing generals and Hannibal declared Alexander to have been the mightiest of generals, and next to him Pyrrhus, and third himself, Scipio asked with a quiet smile, 'and what would you have said if I had not conquered you?' To which Hannibal replied, 'In that case, Scipio, I should not have counted myself third, but first of generals'." Thus according to Hannibal, first Alexander, second Pyrrhus, third himself. 82.44.82.167 (talk) 16:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC) Catiline63

However, elsewhere in Plutarch (Pyrrhus 8.2) the biographer writes "Hannibal... declared that the foremost of all generals in experience and ability was Pyrrhus, that Scipio [Africanus] was second, and he himself third." (The quote is also presented above.) Plutarch then states that this factoid is also presented in his biography of Scipio. This work is, however, now lost. Curiously, Alexander's name is omitted from this alternate top-three.

Regardless of the actual order, the take-home message is that Pyrrhus was held in high esteem by Hannibal, and in his opinion ranked with Alexander the Great, Scipio Africanus and himself. 82.44.82.167 (talk) 16:40, 2 January 2008 (UTC) Catiline63

Maybe you guys didn't look closely enough, but the sources aren't contradictive. One is about the ablities, the other about might. 87.67.8.251 (talk) 17:53, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Unreliable

Its really tragic that some people are triggered by clear nationalism. And the worst, they wanna add their unreliable comments in an encyclopedia. Ploutarch is one of the most reliable and neutral sources of antiquity, his biographies are renowned.

Perhaps the one that claims the opposite has not even read a single setence about his work. Why dont read first the related sources before extracting unreliable critics and statements?

Second, why Rolf Winkes is unreliable source too?

Ok. lets hear the sources that say that Pyrrhos isn't Greek? Some books of Hojxa regime maybe? Perhaps someone is afraid to point out his own view and just puts npov labels, without opposing anything! I will report that sure. An encyclopedia of the 21th century considers Ploutarch an unrelable rource? If this is heard in a literature department in a University, it will make the entire community to lauph...Alexikoua (talk) 22:37, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Ok, let's take a look at the references. The first two of, Plutarch, are of a person with greek ethnicity so there is not a neutral point of view. The third reference is a random page made by some uknown guy, anyone could have made that page and is therefore a non-reliable source. The fourth was made by a Greek author, so there's no neutrality. The only valid reference is the last one, whose reliability is disputable. --84.20.83.42 (talk) 10:03, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you, I too find the references unreliable. I can't either see those pages of that book anywhere, therefore the article is not fully verifiable.--EmpD++ (talk) 19:16, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, Im not surprised, the user that added the npov sign, has already been blocked twice for vandalims in the past.--Alexikoua (talk) 22:47, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

You must be confusing me with someone else. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EmpD++ (talk • contribs) 15:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Reliable

Someone is playing like a child with reliable sources. The article will remain without these out of the question singns, until someone has something serious to argue (and I dont mean nationalistic, racist arguments that a person's nationality makes him unreliable)Alexikoua (talk) 19:47, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see what the nationality has to do with this. I don't think that greek references are valid since the article talks about a greek character. They're not Neutral. Please read the rules more carefully before attacking others. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EmpD++ (talk • contribs) 15:01, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I urge all editors to discuss this matter in a spirit of civility and assumption of good faith. Strongly urge. No, really strongly urge. We all clear about that yet? As to the references: nationality does not invalidate sources in and of itself. If additional sources are available, and they are secondary sources of appropriate reliability, then by all means add them, and adjust the article accordingly to reflect the consensus of the available sources (or, note where those sources disagree). OK? Alai (talk) 19:28, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

The main idea is that there are already secondary sources added in the article. The argument to put an pov sign in every ancient personality that is described mainly by authors of the same nationality (and I talk about primary ancient sources) will put automatically an pov sign the vast majority of ancient personalities.

Its gets really wierd, how can Plutarch be reliable when describing Ceasar, and not reliable about decribing a Greek? Suppose for someone Plutarch is 90% unreliable and pov. Why noone doesnt add an pov sign on Plutarch too? (according to the pov unreliable stuff he is describing, according to a user's claim) --Alexikoua (talk) 20:19, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

If there were secondary sources questioning Plutarch's neutrality (or in some cases, but not in others) it would be appropriate to add them, and their omission might be cause for tagging the article. But the point is to have such a discussion about the existence (or lack) of such sources, rather than getting into a tag revert war, or a name-calling exercise. If no such substantiation is forthcoming in a reasonable period, the tag can then appropriately be removed. Alai (talk) 20:54, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Well... nationality has only something to do with modern sources. There were not many nationalities with people that could write at the time. Who else could read and write than some Greeks and Romans?? Scythians?Dacians?Illyrians? They were at the time mere barbarians.And still, questioning that one source does not mean the article's neutrality is disputed as well.--Michael X the White (talk) 22:01, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

The user EmpD++, insist that there is a possibility to be Ilyyrian. Well, he has started to reveal himself, but too but he can't prove that:

• 1st ref just mention the name Pyrros and its translation and nothing more.(aka proves nothing)
• 2nd ref and 3rd lack excact citation and comment about the arguement.
• Is he shy about discussing the topic here? --Alexikoua (talk) 17:35, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

His sources are not appropriate (www.aboutnames.ch) or highly POV (Serge Metais). Simple. --Tsourkpk (talk) 18:00, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Here I am. I am not Illyrian, in fact I'm Italian.

Ok, maybe the first reference is not that important, but the other ones ARE. They are neutral, since they're from french writers. I have put the exact pages, but you, like always, reverted my changes. My sources ARE reliable, unlike yours. Come on, All your sources are GREEK, which is cannot be neutral because in this article is being discussed the ethnicity of the person. The only neutral one seems a page made by some uknown person (Secondary reference 2) and Pyrrhus by Jacob Abbott. So we got 2 against 2 references. What about the Rolf Winkes one? That's obsolete, it's from old studies and cannot even be verified for reliability. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.20.83.62 (talk) 09:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, you have been indefinetly blocked and we all know what that means--Michael X the White (talk) 09:37, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

He's not Illyrian, off course. Illyrians as an nation ceased to exist since 2nd cent. A.D.. Imagine someone claim that he is Babylonian, Sumerian or Carthaginian? More possible is to talk with an extraterrestial than with an Illyrian today, thats logical.

Moreover the sourced books by him were just propaganda material.Alexikoua (talk) 21:44, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

From what I am reading here I am understanding that in Wilkipedia there is a greek moderator!Because there is no way that someone with a common sense of logic would say "NO" to all the french and english sources which say that Pirrhus and all Epirus were Illyrian and saying "YES" to the GREEK sources who say that Pyrrhus was a greek!!And by the way!!What the hell are you doing in the page about "Illyria" ??Illyria comes from the ancient GREEK word HYLLUS??Dudes!!Dont play this misserable games!!Illyria comes from the albanian word "i lir" which means "free"!!its not something in which you need to think alot!!In modern albanians we call the illyrians "ilir" and we call a free person "i lir".Illyrians were called like that because all they wanted was freedom!!A freedom that modern Greece doesnt want for its 5000 years old neighbourhood!A freedom that the Wilkipedia "moderators" just sh*t on it!!Moderators,becareful on what you allow to be writen in Wilkipedia,because you have taken the responsibility to write about one of the most dangerous places in the world!!Yes the Balkans is dangerous!!The world wars has always starten from the balkans,and what you are doing is making the hatred which lies in this territory to grow more and more!I am not exagerating but you can be one of the responsibles of a war in the near future!Because pride for what we are and what our grandfathers were is esencial for us,albanians!!So please,study all the sources,or...Fear the Consenquences... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Special:Contributions/jurgenalbanian (talk) 01:07, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

I hope not to be banned from Wilkipedia like my patriots,because this is my god damn oppinion,and I think its Democracy where we live on in this moder world!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by jurgenalbanian (talk) 01:09, 25 December 2008 (UTC)

There is no proven link between Albania and Illyria. There are different theories and approaches. The Albanian-Illyrian link was adopted during Hodja regime in Albania, moreover stated that the Epirot tribes were Illyrian too, just to serve propaganda and irredentism purposes. Hope, modern schollars in Tyranna keep an eye on this topics and stop to change history in order just to serve an one sided approach. --Alexikoua (talk) 08:57, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

1.According to your logic,well there is no proved link between modern greeks and the hellens.In ancient times,the tribes which you are talking about were called hellens not greeks you sick!! 2.Spell his name correctly,its Hoxha not Hodja!!Or you want to make even him greek?? 3.It wasnt adopted during his regime!!Do you know about my national hero Gjergj Kastrioti??Well,his hero was exactly Pirro of Epirus,Thats why his hat had a goat,because Pirros sign was a goat!! Thats why your government wants to make even Gjergj Kastrioti a greek,because when you prove that he was albanian,you prove that even Pirro was albanian!! Do you know the illyrian tribe of albanoi??Thats where modern albanians descend from!!And do you know the names of illyrian kings??Teuta, Agron, Pirro, Bardhyl,etc?? Those names are still used in modern Albania!! So STFU,and fix those crap you have written in Wilkipedia!! 4.Its Tirana not Tyranna you stupid!!!Or do you want to make even my city greek??--Jurgenalbanian (talk) 10:02, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Well,of course you are not going to fix those pages...Its obvious why Wilkipedia supports this much fanaticly Greece!!Because the greek government has donnated big sums of money to Wilkipedia!!Do you really think that normal people would donate to this crap??NO THEY WOULDNT!! Its the greek government who donates!! Thats why Wilkipedia is making everyone and every land greek!!Thats why only albanians get banned,not greeks!! I am just loosing my time probably. I am like writting in a greek forum not in a discusion page of an enciklopedia!! You people are brainwashed!! No... you are not brainwashed, you nedd money!! And the greek government gives you to much,in change of entirely destroying the entire history of Albania!! Who gives a hell about Albania anyway?? Shame on you!!--Jurgenalbanian (talk) 10:09, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Ill probably be banned... because democracy is dead in this website...--Special:Contributions/jurgenalbanian (talk) 10:12, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Read the rules about the wiki policy. What you say are just assumptions, no facts. I believe you can give your arguments without personal attacks. Pyros-Skenderbey-Goat? Whats that, a new kind of heresy? I'm sure the university of Tyrana has a more open minded approach on that.Alexikoua (talk) 13:57, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

What exactly is your issue (i.e. what do you want to get fixed in the article) and how can I help? I hope we can resolve this amicably. Thanks.--Xenovatis (talk) 10:47, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

Well,a friend of mine before had posted the links of 2 french books and of one english book!And what did the admins do,they just said that they were unreliable!!Why is that so?And what about your sources??They are all greek,or wrotten by people with greek heritage!!I am studying in the university of Tirana(and dont you dare calling it Tyrana anymore because I have even more city pride then national pride,or ill be forced to call your country "Gayreece" and of course you wouldnt like that!) and the history books do state that Pyrrhus was Albanian. Same thing goes for all history books, from elementary to university. I am able to provide sources for my argumentation but as I have seen from the previous users they are merely ignored. So Please re-check your sources, because most of them are impartial, and considering actually checking the sources posted before by the banned users, before deciding to ignore them.--Jurgenalbanian (talk) 14:09, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Please check the sources in the main article. They are all WP:RS. In any event if you do have RS that suggest otherwise please cite them here so we can add them to the article. And please be aware that racist and homophobic comments are in contravention of WP policy. Thanks.--Xenovatis (talk) 14:39, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

A new Albanian in Wiki?? Welcome! I guess that makes you 3 now... (except if you're Empd again). I could be writing lots of things but, as you're knew, I'd just want to warn you. Saying things like governments donated money, etc. will just end in you seeming ridiculous and no one taking in serious what you say (we anyway do not care). Things like Phyrrus the Albanian or "it's Tirana you stupid" or even (that's the best one) "they were hellens not greeks", will just earn you a bad reputation around here.

Please read the lengthy discussions and ask questions before making any statements. There is only one Albanian around here that we can at least have a decent discussion with and it would be nice if you became the second.

P.S. Call anyone the way you like. Nobody cares. Honestly. Just be careful because you may be banned. Cheers!Michael X the White (talk) 20:17, 7 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes!A new albanian in Wiki!And there will be many more!Now for now I am retreating because as I see you are well organized.Ill make some researches and i'll find the links of some books that I have readen.I'll also ask some friend.But know something!This what you are doing wont last long!Just like the crap about "Skanderbeg the greek" didn't!See you soon...really soon!--Jurgenalbanian (talk) 14:38, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Brrrrrrrr I tremble --Michael X the White (talk) 18:31, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

You dont have to!There is no reason to tremble by watching you PC screen!But you will tremble soon! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jurgenalbanian (talk • contribs) 19:59, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Dont forget to read A. Hitler's, Mein Kapf, and how propaganda can forcibly change history and facts, that's what the tottalitarian regime (1945-1991) had in mind when changing your history books. Fortunately, today at the Albanian univerisities this past is long forgotten, and noone speaks about fictional nationalistic situations. So this pro-Albanian approach adopts only a extremistic minority in your country, too bad.--Alexikoua (talk) 07:44, 10 January 2009 (UTC)

Check out the Albanian wikipedia

There they claim Pyrrhus was an Illyrian and the same for the Molossians. It would be funny if it weren't so sad.Xenovatis (talk) 19:09, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Oh well...! Who reads it anyway??--Michael X the White (talk) 19:11, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Every day more people read it. --sulmues (talk) 01:26, 6 March 2010 (UTC)

I've posted some stuff from Britannica which, surprise surprise, seems to indicate rather conclusively that Pyrrhus and the Molossians were Greek even if they were not entirely accepted as such in the 5th c. BCE, they certainly were by the 3rd c. BCE. I have named the refs BritA (Pyrrhus) and BritB (Epirus). Please feel free to add them where you think is appropriate. I don't really care enough for this historical era to go through all of it myself. I just read the albanian wiki articles and wanted to make sure this idiocy does not infect the english one.Xenovatis (talk) 19:17, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

The question whether the Molossi were Greek, half-Greek, or barbarian does not belong in this article, no matter how certain either side may be; they have an article of their own. (Both sides are cherry-picking quotations anyway; which is doing so more intensely is one of the questions I prefer to avoid.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:40, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

What i dont get is how could someone even claim Pyrrhus was an Illyrian. His father was an Aeacidae and his mother was from Thessaly. Even if there are scant doubts by a small number of historians over the Greekness of Molossians, there is no doubt about the Greekness of their royal house. I found this on the subject which includes ancient sources stating the obvious. Johnaldinho (talk) 11:29, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Inaccurate Map

I realize this sort of thing is a bit of a sensitive subject, but Hammond in his 'Macedonian State' on Page 40 indicates that the Paeonians were linguistically and culturally distinct from their neighbors, whereas on the map in this article they are classified as 'Thracian'. The Thracians were dominant east of Paeonia. Fimbria (talk) 11:19, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shqypes Arbnore (talk • contribs) 11:13, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Truth?! Epirus?! Greek?! Albanian?!

I must say that I came to this topic by accident. I was searching about the battle of Mount Erix, and there it quoted Pirrhus of Epirus and else. I was shocked that Pyrrhus (Pirro) was said to be a greek and so on. And than I see the discussion. I am albanian. I've studied language and literature and I have a passion for history. I happen to live in the northern (albanian) part of the solongcalled Epirus. The first thing that I noticed about the article is that it has a strong underlining about Pirro being a greek, Epirus being greek, Molossians having been greeks and so on. Strange, I thought the article was about Pyrrhus of Epirus and his achievements mainly, not about his much discussed nationality. The same about the references: They look to be there only to support the greekness of Pirro, Epirus and so on. If this be true ( and I've seen it in other articles concerning Epirus) than, this article is a failure. Because it's intention is not to inform those who are interested, but to misguide them in the midst of a nationalistic conflict, which though Greece and Albania might be thousands of years old, dates no more than 200 years.

Plutarch tells about Pyrrho and his line being a descendant of Neoptolemus, son of Achiles. He tells that Neoptolemus was not born in Epirus; he went there by force of arms. If this be true, and Neoptolemus and Achiles did exist, and if they really belonged to a proto-greek tribe, that makes Pyrrhos of greek blood and that's all. The real problem behind Pirrhus is the nationality of the people living today in Epirus. If the albanians or the greeks are trying to claim their nationality for themselves, they will surely start from the heroes and so on. When you steal from a house you start with the jewels. Herodotus and Thucidides in their writings refer to Epirus, Macedonia and the Illirian kingdoms and tribes as "Barbaroi" which in that time had a purely linguistic meaning: non-greek speaking people. And their language, being one of the most important attributes of a people, revealed these above quoted people as non greek.

There are a lot of articles about antic Balkan. They all speak of four main races: Illirian, Greek, Thracian, and the Dacian. Epirus (and Macedonia) appear in history as special entity only during the rule of a great king and his line. This seems to point that this kingdom was not a race apart.They were Illirian, Greek or Thracians. Most probably a mixture of these three, who themselves were not as apart from each other as might be believed.

The Cambridge University Press and Britannica Online Encyclopedia refering to "Pyrrhus, king of helenistic Epirus" or "the greek army of Pyrrhus", or "the greek hoplites of Pyrrhus" are practically speaking of Epirus in a wellknown history period, and about the type of his army. "Greek riders", for example, was a type of army unit and had nothing to do with nationality; the same as the mostly albanian "Stratiotis" in medieval time.

Another interesting thing is that if Epirus was greek, it was the only such kingdom, all the greece having the city-state form of politic organisation. On the other side, this was typical for the Illirans. The Enkeleian kingdom of Bardhyl, the Taulantian kingdom of Glaukia, the Ardian kingdom of Agron, The Dardan kingdom etc. Two greek colonies in the midst of these kingdoms, Epidamn, and Apolonia were city-states. Note that when Pyrrhus was a child, his supporters are not quoted to even think about taking him to a greek ruler, or even macedonian. they took him instead to Glaukia the taulant, which was not the mightiest ruler in that time. Plutarch says that he was even frightened from the persecutors of Pirro. Than why did they took Pirrho to Glaukia? The reason is simple I think. They belonged to the same people.

As about Pirrhus being a descendant of Achiles, that's mostly legend, as Achiles himself who claimed his heritage from Zeus, which, I think, no one in his right mind can claim to be true. Epirus was full of helenistic culture, that's a fact. So was most of Eastern Mediterranean. Even the Egiptian weere having helenistic culture 400-300 BC. That does not make them greek. Writing english in this article does not make me English. Even if Pirrhus did have greek blood, can anybody say that he did what he did because he had greek blood? Or illirian blood? Can albanians claim glory from the fact that Mother Teresa was born of them (by the way, she has claimed to be albanian)? All the world know her as Mother Teresa of Calcuta! I think that to have a true opinion about something you have to look at all sides of it. Truth is not property of a race, but God's gift to all people. I would be happy if some articles in Wikipedia would not be a source of disinformation, or examples of simplemind and one-sided ideas. Hoping for these words of mine not to be censured or misinterpreted. Respect to all. (next time bringing references) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Shqypes Arbnore (talk • contribs) 12:38, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

--sulmues talk contributions 05:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Albania TF

Pyrrhus should be placed under TF Albania. We don't know where he was born, but he built two cities in modern Albania (Antigonea and Butrint). I hope no one will revert me when I place the Albania TF tag. --sulmues (talk) 14:00, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

@Athenean: Please do not make this an edit war. Discuss before you take the Albania TF out of the talk page. --sulmues (talk) 18:33, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

There's nothing to discuss. According to your logic, Alexander the Great and Philip of Macedon should be included also. I saw your post on the TF talkpage [1], where you rally the troops to make sure the Albanian POV is represented in this and other articles. Do you really think that is a constructive attitude? ("We must make sure these articles are on our 'watchlist' and the Albanian POV is represented!)"

We must make sure that all the 2ndary sources are represented.--sulmues (talk) 00:51, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

The fact that the man built cities that are now in modern Albania isn't a good reason to put him in TF Albania. By that logic, Constantine the Great should go under TF Turkey. Kenji Yamada (talk) 04:56, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

That is not the only reason why he should be also under the Albania TF. Pyrrhus of Epirus was a Chaonian and that is undisputed. Chaonians lived in today's Albania and there is lots of evidence that contrast their being Greeks. Albanian archaeology considers them Illyrians. Other non Albanian, neutral archaeologists also think that the Chaonians although participated in Greek wars, did not speak Greek, but Illyrian. The Greek editors will call these claims fringe theories, but it's the Greek authors themselves who call them barbarians which in the hellenistic world meant non-Greek. Thycidides himself considers them barbarians. See the following citations from ThycidiBold textdes: He calls them continuously barbarians, not once but at least five times in his book THE HISTORY OF THE PELOPONNESIAN WAR [2]:

• The Hellenic troops with him consisted of the Ambraciots, Leucadians, and Anactorians, and the thousand Peloponnesians with whom he came; the barbarian of a thousand Chaonians, who, belonging to a nation that has no king, were led by Photys and Nicanor, the two members of the royal family to whom the chieftainship for that year had been confided.
• The order of march was as follows: the centre was occupied by the Chaonians and the rest of the barbarians
• Chaonians, filled with self-confidence, and having the highest character for courage among the tribes of that part of the continent, without waiting to occupy their camp, rushed on with the rest of the barbarians
• A panic seizing the Chaonians, great numbers of them were slain; and as soon as they were seen to give way the rest of the barbarians turned and fled.
• The enmity of the Ambraciots against the Argives thus commenced with the enslavement of their citizens; and afterwards during the war they collected this armament among themselves and the Chaonians, and other of the neighbouring barbarians.

But let's talk about the Albanian archaeologists' work: Korkuti very clearly says that Antigonia (Chaonia) has an Illyrian culture. [3]. He continues saying that it was the glaukians another Illyrian tribe who enthroned Pyrrhus. How could the Illyrians enthrone the Greeks? This person has been the director of the Albanian institute of Archaeology for 30 years. I know that Megistias will make sure to tell us that he was doing it to make Enver Hoxha happy, but that's not true: his website was opened after Hoxha's death. Liquidating the non-Greek hypothesis of the Chaonians and Phyrrus is not a good way to behave in Wikipdia, but since I am not an archaeologist or historian I will not edit-war. Thank you! --sulmues talk contributions 05:24, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

This still isn't a sufficient reason. You've made a case that Pyrrhus wasn't a Greek. Even if you could show that his contemporaries called him an Ἰλλυριός, that wouldn't make him Albanian. I've lived in Albania and believe me, I know how sure Albanians can be about their Illyrian ancestry. But without involving nationalist commitments, the strongest statement we can make with warrant is that some of the ancient groups of people known to their contemporaries as Illyrians may have comprised a large proportion of the ancestry of many modern Albanians. We don't have the continuity of evidence to make a stronger statement than that. So making a case that Pyrrhus was an "Illyrian" (a difficult notion to define in the first place) doesn't show that he has a direct relevance to modern Albania. Kenji Yamada (talk) 05:53, 29 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually, after reading more of Korkuti, I don't see any place where he specifically talks about Pyrrhus being an Illyrian, so I rest my case and I apologize to the community for my edits under this talk page. Kenji, Greeks don't make a distinction between ancient Greeks and modern Greeks. So don't the Albanians, they are convinced that they are the descendants of the Illyrians and actually for that there is plenty of evidence, especially by Korkuti, Prendi, Ceka and many others. All I'm saying is that no one of them has clearly made a case for the Illyrian origin of Pyrrhus. --sulmues talk contributions 05:56, 29 March 2010 (UTC)