|
I own (and am holding in my hands right now a scholarly reference work, an anthology):
- A History of the Jewish People [2] [3]
- ed. by H. H. Ben-Sasson
- [authors]:
- A. Malamat
- H. Tadmor
- M. Stern
- S. Safri
- H. H. Ben-sasson
- S. Ettinger
- (Tel Aviv: Dviir Publishing House, c1969)
- (Cambridge, Mass.: Harvard University Press, 1976)
- If you turn to its "Index", pp. 1159, you'll only find "Revisionists" - there is no such thing listed in it such as we have: Revisionist Zionism. I submit, therefore, that it is either a neologism, or a term of more recent vintage which designates something else. --Ludvikus (talk) 19:47, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- I'm starting to think that you don't know what a neologism is. How can a phrase used more than 80 years ago by the man who established Revisionist Zionism be considered a neologism? — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 19:50, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
- PS: Do you realize that this is the fourth time you've written that Revisionist Zionism is a neologism, and you have yet to respond to the fact that Jabotinsky used the phrase as early as 1925. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 19:55, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
-
- I'm glad we're talking. But I think you din't here me. I'm trying to tell you that until at least 1976 scholar Abraham Malamat used the term Revisionists to designate the followers of Jabotinsky. And that in his index he has no listing that is the same as the article here: Revisionist Zionism. In other words, until 1976 at least (when the book was translated), in the English language (in the USA) these people were known as "revisionists." OK? (just got your PS, will answer later your PS) --Ludvikus (talk) 20:04, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
-
-
- First, Ludvikus, you're cherry-picking your sources. Second, it doesn't much matter what a history of the Jewish people says. In 3000-4000 years of Jewish history, how many pages do the Revisionist Zionists get? One? One-half? A better source would be a history of Zionism, a book about Revisionist Zionism, or a biography of a key Revisionist Zionist. In any event, you still haven't responded to the fact that the founder of the movement used the name Revisionist Zionist in 1925. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 19:13, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Give me exact references so I know what your talking about. Just give me two things: (1) The exact title of the book you are talking about, and (2) the page number. Otherwise I do not know what you are talking about - and it becomes impossible to avoid disruptiveness. --Ludvikus (talk) 20:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- PS (example): I'm right now holding in my hand a book I own. American Zionism, by Melvin I. Urofsky (1975, 1995), ISBN 0-8032-9559-6 - and as I turn to the Index, page 533, the only thing I find listed is "Revisionist movement." How do you account for that? --Ludvikus (talk) 20:37, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Hi,
- Are you both really quarelling about the use of the expression "Revisionist Zionism" ???
- If you don't know the topic, you should avoid working on this article.
- Here are hundreds Ceedjee (talk) 20:41, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, good observation. However, (1) look at the dates? And (2) open these books and read them. Surfing on the Internet with Google is no substitute forv reading the books you find. (3) Nevertheless, your own reference show that this expression is of recent vintage. And I think that's an exremely important fact. Also, I will put your insults aside, but ask you to adopt a more civil tone of voice consistent with Wiki Policy. --Ludvikus (talk) 20:52, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- funny.
- you have your answer. We are in 2008 and in 2008, historians are talking about Revisionist Zionism.
- Regards, Ceedjee (talk) 21:22, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- There's no "debate" except in Ludvikus' mind. According to the article, Jabotinsky formed the Revisionist Zionist Alliance in 1925. So the term has been Revisionist Zionism from the beginning. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 22:06, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
- That's because "I'm talking to the wall." Reading Melvin I. Urofsky's American Zionism (1975, 1995), p. 357 has no "Revisionist Zionism." Rather, Urofsky discusses "Revisionists" and immediately introduces a footnote with a star ("*"). He discusses in that context the Revisionist party as follows:
"*The Revisionist party had been founded in 1925 bt Vladimir Jabotinsky
to fight for a revision of the Zionist Executive's conciliatory attitude
toward great Britain's whittling down of the Balfour promise,
and to urge greater effort in the settling of Palestine."
-
- Urofsky, an authority on Zionism, makes no mention of the "Revisionist Zionist Alliance, and, I might add, neither does Wikipedia."
- The Jewish Virtual Library does. Is that your source for it?
- But another source I own, History of the Jewish People, says that in 1925 Jabotinsky had set up the Federation of Revisionist Zionists, which proclaimed its aspiration to return to the 'original Herzlian policy', .... --Ludvikus (talk) 03:28, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- Another book I own, A People Apart, by David Vital, p. 994, has Zionist Revisionist Movement. --Ludvikus (talk) 03:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
-
- Ludvikus, why don't you write to the publishers of this book and tell them Revisionist Zionism doesnt exist. Let us know what they say. And this book. And this one. And this one. And this one. And stop cluttering the talk page with this foolishness. Boodlesthecat Meow? 04:11, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
-
-
- That's not a good idea (to write to them). However, your list of books above is excellent. For that you get some points in favor of a WP:Barnstar. Give me a moment to ponder the complex situation: (1) You gave me a list of 5 books, but I've only had a chance to handle the first one, a 2005, but I think we are lucky, this first 2005 book may be enough to solve our dilemma. --Ludvikus (talk) 08:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
-
The first book I open this morning : Sachar, Howard, A History of Israel. From the Rise of Zionism to our Time, Knopf, 3rd édition, 2007, (formely published 1976 and 1996) ISBN 9780375711329 has in the index p.1253 an entry for "Revisionist Zionism" with 15 differents references.
The second book I open : Laqueur, Walter, A History of Zionism, Schocken Books, 2003 (formely published 1972), ISBN 0850211497 refers in the index p.634 to "Revisionists". p.350, he refers to a book written by Vladimir Jabotinsky in the 1920's (around 1926?) and titled : "Was wollen die Zionisten-Revisionisten ?".
Ceedjee (talk) 08:19, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- Thanks. That's very helpful. I have an idea. Hangon a moment. OK? --Ludvikus (talk) 08:26, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- (1) "Eran Kaplan is assistant professor of Judaic studies at the University of Cincinnati." He's the author of the 1st book of the 5 given above. That too is very helpful. --Ludvikus (talk) 08:31, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- I am still there : Amazon also refers to this book : [4] and states it was indeed published in 1926. Ceedjee (talk) 08:33, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- Let's stick to the first book (this German language one requires translation, etc.). I think we should deal with the 1st book: The Jewish radical right: Revisionist Zionism and its ideological legacy. --Ludvikus (talk) 08:38, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
-
-
-
- Ludvikus, you are gravely mistaken when you refer to "our dilemma". The only dilemma here is yours. Nobody else is questioning the name of the article. Nobody. Only you. It's your dilemma, not ours. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 08:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
-
-
-
-
- (1) I'm going to email the Library of Congress to learn when they came up with this Subject classification scheme (they're quite responsive). I agree that there "extists" the label "Revisionist Zionism." But it only started being used in the last few decades. The older scholars did not use it. I think that's an important fact. Now look what at what Prof. Kaplan introduces The Jewish Radical Right. So are the tw0 phenomena one? --Ludvikus (talk) 08:50, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- (2) How come the older scholars didn't use that expression, Shabazz? And is it a label for the "Jewish Radical Right"? according to Prof. Kaplan's book title? --Ludvikus (talk) 08:54, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- (3) Is Jabotinsky a member of the "Jewish Radical Right"? All the scholars on Zionism say that he wanted a state, whereas Brandeis maintained otherwise. So what are these books telling us about that? --Ludvikus (talk) 08:59, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- It was used the first time in 1926, by the founder of the Revisionit Zionist Movement.
- At the lattest, scholars used this in 1976, ie 32 years ago (and Howard Sachar is not just a scholar, he is one of the major reference)
- Would you mind defening : recently, primary source, and reliable secondary source ?
- Ceedjee (talk) 09:01, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
-
-
-
-
-
-
- Ludvikus, why don't you e-mail whomever you'd like and research whatever issues you have. In the meantime, your incessant questions on this page are disruptive. First you tried to argue that "Revisionist Zionism" is WP:OR or a neologism. Now you acknowledge that it exists, but you will only concede that it is a few decades old. As I pointed out 4-1/2 days ago, Jabotinsky used the term in 1925. The phrase has been used to refer to this philosophy from the beginning. You still have not addressed this fact; you prefer to muddy the water with other issues like the Jewish Radical Right.
- Please do all the research you'd like. But please stop posting status updates every 10 or 15 minutes as you have been doing for the past 5 days. As I wrote, this is extremely disruptive. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 09:01, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- As another editor wrote earlier, if you have to ask basic questions about what Revisionist Zionism is, maybe you shouldn't be editing this article or trying to rename it. This isn't a forum to educate Ludvikus about Revisionist Zionism. Please conduct your research in a quiet corner of the library, not on this Talk page. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 09:04, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- That's very provocative of you, and insulting to the memory of the great Malcolm X. If you don't cut it out, I'm going to ask you to change your name on Wikipedia because of all your provocations. Just give us an exact quote of such usage in the past. --Ludvikus (talk) 09:18, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
-
- I won't give you anything. There is a solid consensus to leave this article where it is, a consensus you have twice violated by moving it. Since you wish to rename the article, it is your responsibility to convince other editors of the validity of your point of view. It is not our responsibility to educate you, provide you with references, quotes, books, or anything else. Stop this madness or I will go back to WP:ANI and ask to have you blocked. — Malik Shabazz (talk · contribs) 09:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
-
-
- Again you are insulting. Please stop right now. I'm having a productive discussion with two other editors, including Bootles-the-cat who supplied us with five titles, and the other editor whose name I do not remember, and you come in with disruptions. You use the inappropriate word "madness" and you threaten to report me. Now cut it out already. --Ludvikus (talk) 09:35, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- The Palestine Post, April 16, 1933, titles an article : Split among the Revisionist Zionists.
- The article start by "The differences of opinion between the Revisionist Zionist Executive and their charmain Mr Jabotinksy have now lead to a definite cleavage".[5]
- Regards, Ceedjee (talk) 10:06, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
- PS: I'm sorry, User:Seejee, for not rememdering your name. I find your reference to the 1932 newspaper above extremely relevant, useful, and contributory to our discussion, so thanx for your good work. --Ludvikus (talk) 12:43, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
|
