Talk:Rock of Gibraltar

Discussions

1. REDIRECT Gibraltar should be here. Then this material can be moved to Gibraltar where it can be easily found partly in the Geology subsection and partly in the History subsection. Doesn't this make sense? Wetman 19:04, 10 Mar 2004 (UTC)

No, no it really shouldn't. Saluton 20:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't the racing horse 'Rock of Gibraltar' also be mentioned? The disagreements between the owner and Alex Ferguson did make lots of headlines.

I guess it could link to it. Saluton 20:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Didn't John and Yoko get married on the rock?

They got married in Gibraltar - you know, the country (fine, Dependant Territory) which comprises the Rock and the bits of land on the side. Saluton 20:40, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

Prudential Financial

Prudential Financial's logo is the rock of gibraltar. --71.250.76.146 02:40, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Codename Operation Tracer

Operation Tracer was a US secret operation to put men on the island to spy on german movements on the island. http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/article2239241.ece

- your facts are totally wrong - how did you garner that information from that article. Where did the US come into this or the idea that Gibraltar is an island?

The men were British, not American. As for the question of why someone would believe Gibraltar is an island, I believe it is a peninsula, connected from the European mainland only by a narrow isthmus. 207.69.139.141 23:55, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Expansion

I have expanded the article and cited most unreferenced sections. Chris Buttigieg^talk 11:09, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Greeks - Mons Calpe

The opening paragraph says that the Greeks new the rock as Mons Calpe. Mons Calpe is latin, why would the greeks call it by a latin name, when their legend of Hercules predates the advent of Rome?

Hercules, actually Heracles in this case (being in a Greek story and all) is mentioned in The Odyssey, which Homer dictated in the 7th century BC, so about 200 years before the traditional date of the founding of Rome. I realize that Latin did not all of a sudden appear at the sme time the Romulus killed Remus (as legend would have it). But, even if they did know about the language, it wasn't important enough culturally that they would not have a Greek term for it, eh?

Also, I realize that the Odyssey is probably not the first mentioning of Heracles, but I feel it's adequate to show prior existence of the term.

Could Caple be a transliteration of Greek? Is it Καλπέ?

I found the following etymology here: [1]

"The Phoenicians called Gibraltar Calpe. In Aramaic/Phoenician the consonants in Cala meant Hollow and in Pietra meant stone, hence to them Calpe - Gibraltar (and other similar places) was the Hollow stone, probably a reference to the caves they found here at sea level."

perko 04:58, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

That is an interesting point you have brought up. If you have adequate references, feel free to change it. Chris Buttigieg 09:06, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Geology

Is the Rock of Gibraltar a Morro? If so it should be added as a famous example. Fig 23:25, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Seeing as the Rock is neither made of granite nor quartz and isn't round in shape for that matter, I sincerely doubt it. It is best described as a rocky promontory. -- Chris B • talk 15:11, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Dubious

Seriously doubt that this was the case and need a much better reference.

In ancient times the Rock of Gibraltar marked the limit to the known world and to pass beyond it was to sail to certain destruction over the bottomless waterfall at the edge of the world.

Roadrunner (talk) 16:24, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

There are plenty of additional references. Have a look at the Gibraltar Museum's website for instance. A cursory Google search will also reveal a fair number of relevant sources. Chris.B 16:42, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Gibmetal77 and Macaques

Gibmetal77, this article is not your personal toy, nor is it solely for people who live in Gibraltar. Perhaps you have misinterpreted what the goal of wikipedia is? It is an encyclopedic reference for everyone in the world to have access to. As contributors, that means it is our obligation to make sure changes are both reliable and accurate as can be. I made a legitimate edit that is backed up by science. You have undone this several times now, despite being refuted and agreeing.

I did my undergrad in physical anthropology, and I'm currently working on a MSc in primatology. This is a topic that I am very well versed in. Barbary macaques were originally referred to as apes because they lacked a tail. This was consistent with the times in which observations played a larger role in determining biological hierarchies than genetics/evolutionary relationships since both were then unknown. While the name "Barbary Ape" is still in use, references to it being an ape (like the original article stated) are actually very few and far between. Evolutionary biologists, and in this case primatologists in particular, are trying to reverse the spread of this archaic "Barbary Ape" label. For the most part, they have done fairly well. Unfortunately, there are people out there - who do not have any background in the discipline - that think traditional names are the way to go. That's not really the way it works in zoology and taxonomy. That said, referring to the Barbary Macacque as an ape is wrong. Period. This isn't a subjective opinion. They are cercopithecoids, or old world monkeys, not apes. Apes are subsequently broken down into lesser apes (Hylobatids - Gibbons and Siamangs) and greater apes (Hominids - Orangutans, Gorillas, Chimpanzees and Humans). Macaques do not fall into these categories anymore than chimpanzees fall into the monkey category. Please don't undo a legitimate edit without knowing your facts. You damage your own credibility, and you damage the credibility of the article. If you want to continue calling them apes, that's your prerogative. But please don't mislead everyone else. It's not fair to legitimate contributors or the general public who comes across the article and assumes there are apes living in Gibraltar.

As for the last part of the edit, they are also the only wild primates left in Europe. While they are also the only wild monkeys left in Europe, proper English etiquette would defer to the highest taxa that they are the sole contextual members of. Ergo, you would never say that humans are the only habitual bipedal apes. It's correct, sure, but not as correct as saying humans are the only known habitual bipedal primate. To say otherwise implies there are other primates that are bipedal. Just like saying they're the only wild monkeys left in Europe implies there are wild prosimians extant on the continent.

You are trying to argue semantics, and I don't know why? For an article that isn't even about the ape? Regardless, it is incorrect, and is akin to vandalism to continually undo legitimate edits. And I'm sure you know this. If you have an issue with my edit, discuss it here like Wikipedia's rules indicate. Do not continually remove something until a concensus has been made. We can start with a third opinion, if you would like. Drur93 (talk) 21:37, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

The article does NOT contend that the Barbary Macaque is an ape which, as you have pointed out, would be incorrect. Having said that, Barbary Macaques are often referred to (albeit incorrectly) as "Barbary Apes". This is a fact. It is therefore appropriate that we mention its common name for the sake of lucidity (making it clear that it is taxonomically incorrect) - doubly so seeing that the animal is better known as an ape, at least to the layman. RedCoat10 • talk 13:41, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

The article actually did contend it in the wording. "...which is home to around 250 Barbary Macaques, commonly known as apes...". This sentence very explicitly states that Barbary Macaques are commonly known as apes. Anyone who reads this, without knowledge of the species or taxa, is going to assume, incorrectly, that apes exist in Gibraltar. This is misleading. I don't think many can deny this. As I stated above, "Barbary Apes" is an archaic name given to the species due to their appearance. This is common knowledge. My original analogy stands, as chimpanzees are commonly referred to as monkeys by lay people who do not know better. It would be misleading to state chimpanzees are being commonly referred to as monkeys, yet this is the equivalent. I can think of many more examples in the animal kingdom. Public ignorance of science is not an excuse.

If you can find a legitimate scientific source that supports the claim that the the academic world commonly refers to them as apes, I'd be interested in seeing it. If you wish to edit it with something along the lines of "...often misclassified as an ape..." or some derivation thereof, however, that is potentially acceptable. It is not necessary, however, as the actual article on Barbary Macaques makes mention of this. Plus, the redundancy takes away the reader's attention from the actual Rock of Gibraltar article. Conciseness is key. Drur93 (talk) 05:58, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

Europa Point missing

Prominent landmark at Gibraltar, with its own wiki article, a wiki'ed mosque, a wiki'ed Catholic shrine, etc. --71.174.159.95 (talk) 23:19, 12 May 2010 (UTC)