Talk:Rudy Giuliani

Edit run for post-presidential-election perspective

I've done an edit run through much of the article to fix up problems that occurred from the original text being written in 2007 during the presidential campaign. Some material was repetitive beyond reason, or was stated in a political context that no longer exists, or was slanted or distorted to make a political point at the time, or was overly specific in terms of giving precise dates and publications in the main text. I've given specific reasons for each of the changes on its edit summary. I ran out of steam before I could give much attention to the 9/11 sections, though.

In any event, this article is still mediocre at best; it couldn't come close to GA status in its current shape. I'm kind of embarrassed to see from stats that I'm the #1 editor on it. Hopefully some other editors will give it some positive attention. If he does run for gov, it will soon get all the wrong kind of attention.... Wasted Time R (talk) 03:00, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

seperate early life and/or legal career article for Rudy

Notice how Obama, Bush, McCain, etc have their own early life articles, Rudy def deserves on. This article is way too long to begin with.--Levineps (talk) 03:45, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Two of them are presidents and one was a presidential nominee. Rudy's just a mayor. Moreover, unfortunately, nobody reads those biographical subarticles. Per http://stats.grok.se/ for December 2008:

• Rudy Giuliani: 30,397 views
• Mayoralty of Rudy Giuliani: 672
• Rudy Giuliani during the September 11, 2001 attacks: 289

The same approx 100:1 ratios hold true across all our biographies, because Google doesn't show them and readers don't click through. If Rudy runs for governor in 2010 and gets elected, then yes something will probably have to be done, but for now, I'd just let this article's structure stay the way it is. But we can see what others think. Wasted Time R (talk) 05:03, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I should also note that at 51 kB (8346 words) readable prose size, the article current fits within the guidelines of WP:SIZE. Wasted Time R (talk) 05:42, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Rudy Giuliani's mother born in a place called Brooklyn, but ironically not in New York City

http://www.gedview.com/giuliani/pedigree.php?rootid=I1

Look at this link above. I googled Rudolph Giuliani genealogy search and I found this. I figured this would be an interesting tid bit of information.

At first, I questioned if there actually was a Brooklyn, in Upstate New York, but I've found several sources that prove it to be so, one in which was already on Wikipedia. I'll provide the resources to show this place exists though, because I know they'll be a couple people out there who may just think that person got the information confused.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Otto,_New_York#Communities_and_locations_in_East_Otto

Here is that Wikipedia link.

Brooklyn -- A hamlet on Route 12 in the north-central part of the town, and north of Otto village.

http://www.brooklyn.net/other_bklyns/other_bklyns_02.html

http://www.roadsidethoughts.com/ny/brooklyn-xx-cattaraugus-nearby.htm

Brooklyn is located in Cattaraugus County.

This is a map of where it actually is, along with some other useful information. It says there's a population of 1,069, sourced by the U.S. Census. What should be noted though is that this place is technically not it's own town, but is more of a neighborhood, or division of a town, which is why the Census hasn't that specific of information on Brooklyn, Cattaraugus, New York.

http://www.roadsidethoughts.com/ny/brooklyn-xx-cattaraugus-census.htm

Here is the Census tab.

So I'll be interesting the following quote below, following this quote, in the early life tab:

Rudolph Giuliani was born in the New York City borough of Brooklyn, the only child of working-class parents Harold Angelo Giuliani and Helen C. D'Avanzo, both children of Italian immigrants.[5] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.73.230.11 (talk) 00:48, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Ironically, likewise to her son Rudolph, Helen C. D'Avanzo was born in a place named Brooklyn, in Cattaraugus County, New York, which is a hamlet in the north-central part of East Otto and is 31 miles south of Buffalo. Tom72.73.230.11 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 00:50, 14 February 2009 (UTC).

I'm somehwat new to adding information onto Wikipedia, so I wasn't sure if I correctly put the links on the web-site, like with the '' and ;;. The sources are good though. If there's any problem with it, let me know, but I don't believe there is. Tom72.73.230.11 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 01:04, 14 February 2009 (UTC).

No, that initial source is not what would be considered a reliable source, and the information does not appear to be correct. On page 18 of Rudy by Wayne Barrett, for example, it is quite clear that the D'Avanzos were married and lived in the NYC borough of Brooklyn, where they raised their seven children, including Helen. Tvoz/talk 03:29, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

If I may ask, why would it not be a reliable resource? The other thing I was going to ask is do you know where his mother was born? Although I may not agree, I could see where you're coming from on the issue of the reliability. However, why would you believe the information is not correct?

I am not concerned about where the D'Avanzo's were raised, married or lived. You can marry and live where ever it is you want, and raise as many children as you want. That's not necessarily relevant. Actually, Helen's parents, from what I've read, were Italian immigrants, therefore, they couldn't have been born in neither Brooklyn, Kings, New York nor Brooklyn, Cattaraugus, New York. I don't know where Helen sits chronologically to his six siblings, nor do I know if they had children out of wedlock, prior to getting married. Do you know this for certain? It's possible that her parents immigrated to Brooklyn, Cattaraugus, New York, where Helen may have been moved and later moved to Brooklyn, Kings, New York, for work or what ever reason.

I don't dispute that his mother grew up in Brooklyn, in New York City. What I'm talking about is strictly where she was born, which at this point, seems debatable. Unlike anyone else on this issue though, I've provided a source, that may be correct. If you could provide one, I'd at least like an explanation as to why you believe it's not reputable. This is a Genealogy search. It's not some random person typing in what ever he wants. It had to have come from some where. The other thing I was going to ask is, why would this guy lie? Or where could he get Cattaraugus from? The fact is, it's confusing, being that he was born in Brooklyn, New York, and his mother may have been born in another Brooklyn, also within the state of New York. Perhaps if it said her mother been born in East Otto, which she technically was since Brooklyn's apart of it, you may feel differently.

Unless you find a reputable, detailed source (ex. Rudy Giuliani interview saying where she was born or a copy of his mother's birth certificate) that shows where Giuliani's mother was born, assuming it's not Brooklyn, Cattaraugus, New York, you can't deny the possibility of it. Besides Giuliani directly answering this question or seeing a birth certificate, the next reliable source is a Genealogy search. If we're to ignore that Genealogy search, which is quite useful, all we know to this point is that she was born in the United States, because it's been stated that Giuliani's born to American parents, and all 4 of his grandparents were Italian immigrants. Tom

When you get the chance, please look back in that Rudy book, on p.18, by Wayne Barrett, and see if there are any mentionings about where specifically Helen, or any of the D'Avanzo's were born. Also, if it's possible, since you're referring to p.18 in that book, you could put the specific quote or paragraph on here. Tom72.73.230.11 (talk)

72.73.230.11 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 04:11, 14 February 2009 (UTC).

[edit conflict] Please read Wikipedia:Reliable sources - we don't allow original research here, so we'd not be looking for a copy of her birth certificate. What we need are third party sources - journalists or writers who do research and confirm their claims with multiple sourcing and publish in books or publications with editorial oversight. The website you provided has no sourcing or indication of where its information comes from, and this is likely just an error. Since a reliable source (the book I listed above) tells us that the parents were married in Brooklyn NYC, owned a house there, and raised their seven children there, it is not credible that Helen was coincidentally born in a small place upstate named Brooklyn rather than the much more likely Brooklyn NYC. But note that we don't make any claim as to her birthplace in the article - without a reliable, explicit source for it, we're better off not stating it. No one said anything about lying - the genealogy chart appears to be mistaken. However, if you find other reliable sources for this, please share them here - but please don't add it to the article until we can confirm this anomalous and not credible claim. Tvoz/talk 04:38, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Here is a link to the Barrett book - [1] - scroll down to pages 18-19. As I said, the book says that Adelina and Luigi D'Avanzo, Rudy's maternal grandparents, were Italian immigrants - Adelina grew up in Brooklyn (NYC); when they married they lived on Jackson Street in Brooklyn, where they raised their seven children including Helen, Rudy's mother. There is absolutely nothing there about a sojourn to an upstate NY town named Brooklyn, and it's frankly an absurd suggestion. No, as I said, that book does not explicitly state where she was born, and that is why our article does not explicity state where she was born. But the genealogy chart is not a definitive source and is likely in error. Tvoz/talk 04:53, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

And finally, here is her obituary from the New York Times which says she was born in Brooklyn. I can assure you that when a New York City newspaper says "Brooklyn" they quite certainly mean the borough across the river, not an obscure upstate town. Tvoz/talk 05:21, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

(Tvoz) Please read Wikipedia:Reliable sources - we don't allow original research here, so we'd not be looking for a copy of her birth certificate.

Okay, that's fine. However, you can't deny that if Rudy Giuliani said where his mother was born in an interview, it'd serve as a credible source. We don't have this though. Therefore, a Genealogy search is the next best thing we got. What other way would you suggest?

What we need are third party sources - journalists or writers who do research and confirm their claims with multiple sourcing and publish in books or publications with editorial oversight.

I don't disagree with that. However, as you know as well as I know, that most information on Wikipedia is not sourced by published information. If all quotes that weren't sourced were taken off of Wikipedia, you'd suddenly see like two-thirds of the Rudy Giuliani article evaporate. Meanwhile, I'm producing a resource, that while it may be in the gray territory, it's still more than what many have posted on this article. I'm sure you know that it takes lots of time to produce published articles. Honestly, I get the feeling that Wikipedia's goal is to collect as much information as it can, right or wrong. It seems like it's more about making money than it is providing useful information, like getting people on and reading this site. In that Genealogy search that person did, they had to pay for it. Typically, most information that is retrieved in genealogy searches are government documents, such as Census recordings.

The website you provided has no sourcing or indication of where its information comes from, and this is likely just an error

Okay, I'll give you one obvious example of how sources on Wikipedia don't always tell where their information comes from, yet it mysteriously stays on here. If you'd like, go on the Wikipedia page Jay-Z. The page is locked, so I can't edit the page. The reason why I bring it up though is in the article, it states that Jay Z attended Trenton Central High School. There were a source tagged to it, yet it never said anywhere in the article that he ever attended the school. Has Wikipedia taken the label off though? So I go on the Trenton Central High School Wikipedia page, and it says Jay Z went to the school, although he didn't graduate, which seemingly came from the Jay-Z Wikipedia page. It said no citation above it and it was there since October 2007, so I recently deleted.

Nonetheless does much not get sourced on Wikipedia, but many of the sources that are used are not always credible. Therefore, in many ways, Wikipedia feels like more of a Gossip site than an information site. For what it's worth, I think it's fair to say it's a mix of both. In this particular case I'm showing you though, the information is not gossip. I respect the fact you're questioning it's credibility.

Therefore, I'll continue to research this. If I'm able to provide multiple sources that say Giuliani's resources that show his mother was born in Brooklyn, Cattaraugus County, New York, would that serve as some credibility? Better yet, what I'll do is try to contract the person who did the Genealogy search and ask them where they retrieved this information from.

Since a reliable source (the book I listed above) tells us that the parents were married in Brooklyn NYC, owned a house there, and raised their seven children there, it is not credible that Helen was coincidentally born in a small place upstate named Brooklyn rather than the much more likely Brooklyn NYC.

I never said your source wasn't reliable to proving that his parents were married, resided in Brooklyn, NYC, owned a house and raised their seven children there. That's not the argument. What that article doesn't state is where Helen, nor to my knowledge, where any of the other six children were born. To our knowledge, all we know is that Helen was born in the United States, because multiple sources have said she's not an immigrant. Regardless of whether his mother was born in a place called Brooklyn, Cattaraugus County, New York has nothing to do with Brooklyn, New York. No one's ever said she was born in Brooklyn, New York. Now, if we were saying was she born in Brooklyn, New York City or anywhere else in America, or the state, there'd be a considerable change that's possible.

So if she was born in some random town in Ohio, couldn't you also say what's the change she was born in a small town versus the place where her parents lived most of their lives? Yeah, but that small town has to be some place, and why can't it be Brooklyn, Cattaraugus County, New York? Like I said, the fact that the word Brooklyn is there could be confusing you. If it said she was born in East Otto, New York, which Brooklyn is a portion of, you may see this to be more believable. Because that source said she was born in Brooklyn, Cattaraugus County though, it's the same thing as being born in East Otto.

But note that we don't make any claim as to her birthplace in the article - without a reliable, explicit source for it, we're better off not stating it. No one said anything about lying - the genealogy chart appears to be mistaken.

If you'd rather leave it off, for the question of reliability to the source, that's fine, but to say that it appears to be mistaken is incorrect. What you're basing it off of is assumption. You're basing it off that because she and her six siblings were raised there, they must have been born there. However, what you're not realizing is her parent's were not native to Brooklyn, and just like in today, immigrants who move to our country spread all over the place. In 2009, one Indian immigrant may move to California and their sibling or cousin may move to New Jersey. That can influence them to move there. Similarly, to Giuliani's mother who was born in 1909, when Italian immigration to the U.S. was at it's highest peak point, it's possible one person in the family could have moved to Brooklyn, while the other moved to Upstate New York. Both are places where Italian immigrants commonly went.

However, if you find other reliable sources for this, please share them here - but please don't add it to the article until we can confirm this anomalous and not credible claim.

I appreciate your care for the topic, because the truth is, most Wikipedians, and people who work for the site, would just let it go. I will definitely look for more sources and I will do my best to contract the person who did the genealogy search.

As I said, the book says that Adelina and Luigi D'Avanzo, Rudy's maternal grandparents, were Italian immigrants - Adelina grew up in Brooklyn (NYC); when they married they lived on Jackson Street in Brooklyn, where they raised their seven children including Helen, Rudy's mother.

Did it say that Adeline grew up in Brooklyn, NYC? Or that she initially immigrated to the United States? That quote probably didn't too long, it's like only a sentence or two at most. I don't have access to that book right now, but I will try to get them. Unfortunately though, most people who participate in this discussion likely won't though. If you could provide that on here, it'd be useful in the discussion.

As I've mentioned though, immigrants spread out. She could have been with family during her pregnancy. Her husband may have had to temporarily take a job in that area, which at the time, was prone to working class immigrants. For as sad as this sound too, there are actually people out there, who move to a place, just because it has the same name as the place where they're from, especially if that's the reason why it's a sister city. I spoke to someone recently who moved from Naples (Napoli), Italy to Naples, Florida recently, which they said they became acquainted because of the name. Also, another example, although I forgot the name of the town, but there was this town in Connecticut that had the same name as a city in Louisiana that was hit by Hurricane Katrina.

Besides the aid and shelter that community provided to those Louisianans being generous, the reason why that town, unlike nearly all towns in Connecticut, offered help, is because of this sister-city type bond. I don't know if there actually is this between Brooklyn, NY and other Brooklyn's nation wide, such as this part of East Otto, but this can be an idea.

There is absolutely nothing there about a sojourn to an upstate NY town named Brooklyn, and it's frankly an absurd suggestion.

Than what's even more absurd suggestion is someone actually paying to do a Genealogy search on a public official and putting it on their site. An absurd suggestion would be why would anyone want to do this to begin with. If I didn't provide this source to you, than it would be an absurd suggestion. The reality is though, whether you like or not, there is a source out there, that someone probably paid for, that states that Rudy Giuliani's mother was born in Cattaraugus County. For what it's worth too, Italians immigrants would have been more likely to have children be born in Cattaraugus County, rather than Kings. According to the Census, by percentage, Cattaraugus County (8.2%) has more Italian lineage than Brooklyn, Kings County (7.5%).

http://censtats.census.gov/data/NY/05036009.pdf (Cataraugus County)

http://censtats.census.gov/data/NY/05036047.pdf (Kings County)

No, as I said, that book does not explicitly state where she was born, and that is why our article does not explicity state where she was born.

If your rationale as to why it doesn't explicitly state where she was born on here, that's fine. However, the fact is, outside of your hunch, or what ever it may be, you can't solidly say for certain that she wasn't born in Brooklyn, Cattaraugus County, New York. I'll continue more on this in the next quote.

And finally, here is her obituary from the New York Times which says she was born in Brooklyn. I can assure you that when a New York City newspaper says "Brooklyn" they quite certainly mean the borough across the river, not an obscure upstate town.

Do you know that for certain though? Even though I'm sure you likely know this, I'll mention it anyway. When author's write articles, they write them as if they're a lawyer. They specifically write it an exact way to perpetuate their view on dominant culture. New York papers, the New York Times and New York Post being prime examples, tend to push the New York dominating view on everyone.

I can show you what I mean. If you'd like, go on Google write now. In what ever way you want to type it, look for articles about American's, excluding African-American's in the Great Migration, who who've moved to New York City. Don't look up immigrants moving there. The New York papers wouldn't be against immigrants moving there, because in their eyes, it's molding into the identity of the city. And whether they like it or not, there's nothing they can say to deny that most African-American's in New York, as well as the entire North descend from southerners, because the facts are too obvious.

If I'm wrong, than I gladly encourage to prove me wrong, even if it's for your own reference. When you're done looking up that, and eventually realize there's not much, not from New York papers at least, type in New Yorkers moving to other places. I remember reading about the ridiculous assertion that New Yorkers were moving to the Lehigh Valley once. Down below, I'll provide some links of Pennsylvanians who moved to New York City, from the Staten Island Advance (a newspaper from one of the boroughs of NYC), who'd get little attention.

http://www.silive.com/obituaries/advance/index.ssf?/base/news/1223643603299250.xml&coll=1

http://www.silive.com/obituaries/advance/index.ssf?/base/news/122078071627310.xml&coll=1

http://www.silive.com/obituaries/advance/index.ssf?/base/news/122122440516400.xml&coll=1

http://www.silive.com/obituaries/advance/index.ssf?/base/news/1222947920327640.xml&coll=1

http://www.silive.com/obituaries/advance/index.ssf?/base/news/1225284317197940.xml&coll=1

http://www.silive.com/obituaries/advance/index.ssf?/base/news/12259764175740.xml&coll=1

However, this New York article, made a ridiculous assertion, that Staten Islander's would move to Pennsylvania, arguably, one of the most economically depressed places in the country.

http://www.silive.com/news/index.ssf/2009/02/report_more_us_born_residents.html#post

If you'd like, please find me something that shows Pennsylvanians moving to Staten Island, or any borough of New York City. It'd be some task. Look at how many links you'll see about New Yorkers leaving. Now are the two really that disproportional to each other? No, they're not, but the truth is, the New York Times wants to press it's pro-New York or New Yorker-izing onto others.

Helen D'Avanzo was born on Sept. 26, 1909, in Brooklyn, one of seven children.

http://www.brooklyn.net/other_bklyns/other_bklyns_02.html

If you don't believe me about the New York Times bias nor non-sourcing, please show me where there's a source in the following statement in this article below:

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/05/nyregion/05festival.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

This article can actually be found on the Italian Harlem Wikipedia page. But here's the quote:

They moved away decades ago to leafy cul-de-sacs on Long Island and in the suburbs of New Jersey. And these days the 100 burly young men who hoist the platform onto their backs and dance it down the street have to be imported from elsewhere.

Where is the source that ever proved anyone moving to a leafy cul-de-sac on Long Island, or even more disputable, New Jersey. What made the author believe that the people in these neighborhoods could afford ridiculously expensive real estate and property taxes? Are their any statistics or Census findings that'd support this? No. All they have is one guy who moved to some random place in New Jersey. They didn't even say if he was the one who said leafy cul-de-sac. So why would it be okay for a New York Times author to talk about people from a cheaper part of Manhattan moving into overwhelmingly expensive population-decreasing New Jersey town? Yet so little about the New Jerseyans and American yuppies who flood TriBeca and entire lower Manhattan? To a logical person, there's none. That's bias. To the author of this article, and to the company, who want to please their reads, it makes all the sense in the world, because they want to perpetuate this view.

Mind me, this is the New York Times, the same paper that literally made up that John McCain had an affair with a lobbyist, only after endorsing him, of course. This is coming from someone who voted for Obama, by the way. But the tactic was obvious. They were looking to support Barack Obama, by tying McCain to some type of cheating propoganda, similar to Bill Clinton. There attempt was obviously to hurt McCain and Hillary's names in the process of doing so, indirectly improving Obama's name. Although many later took exception to this article, the fact that this gossip was already out there, left it's mark and certainly helped Barack.

Now you're probably think why did I say all this? I showed this to you so I could explain why the author of that article that says she was born in Brooklyn, yet didn't mention the state nor city. There are 35 Brooklyn's in the United States. To my knowledge, there's just two in the state of New York, that being in Kings and Cattaraugus County, so we can just cut it down to these two. As I mentioned, author's, specifically for high-profile papers, are smart people, who know how to use their words carefully, to portray the image they want and to protect themselves at the same time. Hypothetically, if we knew for certain that Giuliani's mother was born in Cattaraugus County, and this received attention, either from this author's editor or the media, it'd be embarrassing. The resources they have available to them to find information are better and more expensive than ours, so I can guarantee you, not just have they seen that same simply googled genealogy link before, but they've seen the source where it may have come from, such as a birth certificate or census recording.

My other point in showing you those other examples were that even papers like the New York Times aren't sufficient, if they don't say where it is they get their information from. In that leafy cul-de-sac example, I can guarantee you they'd probably even admit they made it up, and would try justifying it with some nonsense like common sense or their interviewee said it, even though they didn't say he did. Think of it this way. While the Times is a reputable paper, Anderson Cooper or Larry King on CNN seems reliable for credible information too, right? Well, if they said there were burning trees in California, and they didn't show you footage, pictures or interviews, would you believe it? So why would you be any more likely to believe the leafy-cul-de-sacs? Simply because it's the New York Times? It'd sound easy just like believing Anderson Cooper, and it may be likely, but without evidence, it can't be proven. Typically, Americans are used to being babied out of laziness when it comes to their mainstream media, which is another influential tactic papers like the Times or TV stations like CNN.

Now you believe out of probability that they meant Brooklyn, in Kings county, right? Well, the fact is, it doesn't say the words New York City, nor even the words New or York in that quote, therefore it's not evidence. Like I said, I'll try to contact the person who did the genealogy search. Keep an open mind to this. With all due respect, you seem really inclined to shutting the door on this possibility. Tom72.73.230.11 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 06:43, 14 February 2009 (UTC).

72.73.230.11, your long rants against the New York Times and other Wikipedia articles are irrelevant. As Tvoz said, the Rudy Giuliani article doesn't say where his mother was born nor does it need to. But if it were to, the New York Times obit that says she was born in Brooklyn (and yes it obviously means the Brooklyn in New York City, it's a New York City newspaper) is a reliable source by the definitions of WP:RS and WP:V and could be used in this Wikipedia article. The website gedview.com is nothing more than a hosting site where anybody can upload anything about their own families or other peoples' families. It is not a professional genealogy site writing about a famous person's ancestors (like this NEHGS article about Hillary Rodham Clinton for example). Thus, gedview.com is not a WP:RS, does not provide WP:V, and you cannot use anything from it in a Wikipedia article. It's that simple. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:56, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

As I've said, I'll try to contact the person who retrieved this information. I'll ask him where he got this from. He had to have gotten it from somewhere. Could you think of a better reason why someone would make up the word Cattaraugus. Ironic coincidences happen. I understand it's not a source though, so I accept that, but if he has either a Census recording or a legitimate source, I'll provide it. As for the Times, I'm not saying they're not a reputable paper, although they've had messed like John McCain and the lobbyist before, but if there's another paper, like a Buffalo newspaper, that says this about Giuliani's mother, and it explicitly says in East Otto, Cattaraugus County, than there's nothing to deny such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.73.230.11 (talk) 07:07, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Citations.

This article need more. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.211.155.22 (talk) 22:09, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes. And also better formatting of the ones that are there. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:47, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Italian orders of merit

Hi, someone could add this honor in a correct english? Giuliani was nominated "Cavaliere di Gran Croce Ordine al Merito della Repubblica Italiana" in 2001, from the italian President of Republic.

some links: http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rudolph_Giuliani - http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ordine_al_merito_della_Repubblica_Italiana

My english is not good so I'm asking you to write it, thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fungoh (talk • contribs) 09:51, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

The Italian Wikipedia (or any Wikipedia) is not a WP:RS. I can't find any source to support the September 2001 awarding in Rome of the Italian orders of merit#Order of Merit of the Republic (Ordine al Merito della Repubblica Italiana) Cavaliere di Gran Croce Ordine al Merito della Repubblica Italiana. I did find a source for the December 2001 awarding in New York of the Order of Merit of Savoy Cavaliere di Gran Croce (Motu Proprio), here, which I added to the article. Maybe these are the same things? I'm very confused. Wasted Time R (talk) 11:41, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm very very sorry, I'm not an expert on the Wikipedia world, anyway this is another source, unfortunately is only in italian: http://www.quirinale.it/onorificenze/DettaglioDecorato.asp?idprogressivo=45755&iddecorato=45299

That is the Quirinale's official website, you can search in the database who had an award, here there is the search page: http://www.quirinale.it/onorificenze/onorificenze.asp I hope I'm useful for you :)

PS: Order of Merit of Savoy is an other thing! Savoy (I believe) in italian means Savoia, there was the kingdom of Savoia here in Italy and Savoia is the surname of the king family, they are alive, so probably they give to Rudolph that award. I'm sorry if my english is too bad, I hope you could understand it!

EDIT: I visited the web site http://www.savoydelegation-usa.org/ and yes, Savoy means italian Savoia, the ancient family who governed the old kingdom! So, they are two different awards, one was assigned from the Savoy Family, now they are normal people without any power, and one was assigned from our President of Republic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fungoh (talk • contribs) 17:35, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Details of Giuliani's Gay Roommates

User:Wasted Time R in this edit deleted the details and nuked reputable citations for details about Giuliani's widely covered arrangement of living with gay roommates during the divorce (made relevant by the fact he declined to attend their recent marriage). This really smacks of censorship and attempts to cleanse this biography of details that don't fit cleanly in the Republican mold. Even the New York Post won't sink to such censorship on the subject! So much for being bold on Wikipedia! For the record the deleted section is below: Americasroof (talk) 17:08, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Giuliani then moved out of Gracie Mansion and into an East 57th Street apartment belonging to two gay friends Howard Koeppel (born 1937) and his domestic partner, Mark Hsiao (born 1960). Koeppel who owns Koeppel Automotive Group which sells Volkswagen, Nissan, Hyundai and Mitsubishi cars in Queens. Guillinai was described as a good roommate who made his bed but squeezed the toothpaste tube in the middle. Koeppel selected his ties in the morning and Guiliani called him "mother." Guiliani was invited to their wedding in Connecticut on May 2, 2009 but did not attend. Guiliani said he supports gay civil unions but not gay marriages.

No censorship, just attention to biographical significance and narrative coherence per WP:BLP,WP:WEIGHT, and other criteria. That section of Giuliani's biography does not need to stop in its tracks to include mini-bio's of Koeppel or Hsiao (if they are notable, create new articles for them), nor does it need to discuss Giuliani's grooming habits (never discussed anywhere else in the article), nor does it need a flash-forward to a wedding many years later. However, I have included his non-attendance at the wedding in Political positions of Rudy Giuliani‎#LGBT issues, where it has some marginal relevance to his position on same-sex marriage. Wasted Time R (talk) 17:25, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

The section is WAY TOO VAGUE simply saying "gay friends." I put specific names and occupations (it is interesting that he would be staying at a car dealer!). The comments about what kind of roommate he was was done in an affectionate manner showing a domesticity that he was comfortable with. Burying the fact he did not attend the wedding in the "issues" section is definitely a way of hiding it. The area of interest on these articles are always the personal side not the issues. Americasroof (talk) 01:36, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

'Gay friends' is succinct and descriptive. This is a relatively minor episode in Giuliani's story. The main article is a fairly quick once-over of Giuliani's life. If you look at Mayoralty of Rudy Giuliani, you'll see a number of important policy issues and Giuliani governing characteristics that have been relegated to it and are not in the main article. If we're going to expand the level of detail that the main article covers, some of those deserve promotion first. And if you want to get into the "personal side", Giuliani's three appearances in drag while mayor (which I researched and wrote up the details on) got put there, instead of in the main article. Now if we're going to add back some personal side material into the main article, I'd suggest the drag appearances are much more illuminating of Giuliani's character and attitude and nonconformity than how he brushes his teeth or the occupations of his gay friends. Wasted Time R (talk) 02:44, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Republican vs Republian/Liberal

I think that is appropriate to indicate in the lead paragraph that, as a mayoral candidate, Giuliani always ran on the Republican and Liberal lines, as this fact was central to winning the mayor's race, AND to his defeat in the quest for the US presidency. NathanZook (talk) 01:20, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

It was certainly part of the story of his mayoral elections, but it had nothing to do with his losing the presidential nomination campaign. Who gets the Liberal and Conservative Party lines have much to do with the byzantine world of New York state politics, and not so much to do with ideology. Wasted Time R (talk) 04:27, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Transvestism

Why is there no discussion of his history as transvestite? It is not common for American politicians to be public transvestites and seems noteworthy. 66.65.49.220 (talk) 20:24, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

That was akin to a Halloween costume if I remember correctly, but IAC pls provide a ref.--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 19:08, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Introduction

The introductory section of this article is pretty average. 9/11 ocurred at the tail end of his last year in office, yet it dominates the introduction. It's like George W. Bush's article starting with "George Walker Bush was the President of the United States during the War In Iraq. France condemned the invasion." I think it needs to be more detailed and less focused on 9/11. --58.170.100.72 (talk) 06:28, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

Someone messed up the introduction. It is way too short for an article like this. Golfcourseairhorn (talk) 01:08, 9 April 2011 (UTC)

Fellow Brooklynite

Dear Mr.Giuliani!I came to the U.S.in 1972,just as the WTC was completed.I also,like Yourself,lived in Bklyn.(145 72ndst)I was also a very big suporter of Yours.Working in Manhattan(18th st and Ave.of the Americas)i passed the WTC every day,coming thru the Battery tunnel.As Auto Tech.i have recieved numerous awards and i am a member of Chicago Rawhides Autotechnician Hall of Fame.I will always be proud to a New Yorker.In 1975 i Proposed to my Girlfrienhe at the Windows of the World Restaurant.Sitting at the Bar,while waiting for a table,After about the second drink,i happen to look out the Window and seen the other Tower pass by.I turned to my Girlfriend and said;Wow Baby,they make strong drinks here,because the tower just passed by.She laught and said;No more drinks for You.They Naturally sway.I felled like a heal.We Got married that year.(9/11/75)Building the new WTC is the best anyone can do.Bigger and better.That is what N.Y. is all about.One more thing.Please run for President........Thank You. Horst G.Albrecht — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.7.37.58 (talk) 12:24, 10 September 2011 (UTC)

Sidebar nav aid

Although there is no separate article on Giuliani's early years (yet), a "series" navigational template has been added to this article just below the infobox template. (Also: See my comment at Talk:Public image of Rudy Giuliani#"Part of a series on" navbox.)--Hodgson-Burnett's Secret Garden (talk) 09:13, 8 October 2011 (UTC)