Talk:Rus' people

split

this is a classic {{coatrack}} article. Rather than the people, it discusses the etymology of Rus. The people and their history are in fact treated at Rus' Khaganate. The etymology ("normanist/antinormanist") should be discussed at etymology of Rus. --dab (𒁳) 13:07, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Merge the article into Etymology of Rus.--Berig 18:44, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Uh, it's only a coat-rack if it's biased. Where is the bias? 155.188.183.7 (talk) 18:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

If anything Etymology of Rus should be merged into Rus' (people). more in detail about it at Talk:Etymology_of_Rus_and_derivatives [1]--Termer 18:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC) PS. Updated the tag--Termer 18:30, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

They should be merged. The article on the Etymology of Rus in any case is repetitive and confusing, with its first two sections seemingly going over the same territory twice, and leaving some things in a muddle. It's a "true fact," for example, that the (modern) Finnish word for Swedes is routsi (and for Sweden, Routsimaa -- the land of the routsi). Analogous words are found in Estonian (rootsi and Rootsimaa) referring to Swedes and Sweden. This isn't proof of the Nordic roots of the Rus', but it's consistent with it.--Mack2 (talk) 06:17, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, it doesn't matter really --Mack2 (talk) but let me point it out anyway. the (modern) Finnish word for Swedes is NOT routsi but ruotsalaiset and for Sweden, it's not Routsimaa but Ruotsi--Termer (talk) 07:10, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
PS. Also, either its a proof for anything or not, is not for us to decide whose job is just to refer to any published source out there and cite what it says. Merge or not? Sure, just that it would make sense to merge the Etymology article with this one, not vice versa like suggested in the beginning I think.--Termer (talk) 07:16, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
PPS. actually, as it appeared it mattered after all because --Mack2 had already updated the Etymology article according to the false meanings of the words. I had to revert the edit. --Termer (talk) 07:28, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. Ruotsi, rootsi. Finnish, Estonian for Sweden. But rootslane in Estonian (ruotsalainen in Finnish) for a Swede; while in Estonian rootsi also means "Swedish" as in rootsi keel ("Swedish language").(talk) 09:29, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

"Rootsi" on it's own does not mean "Swedish" even though the spelling is the same in "rootsi keel" that means "Swedish language". The logic and grammar of finnic languages is very different from Indo-European languages --Termer (talk) 17:03, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

the problem here is that this article isn't about any "people", it is about a name, about sources that attest that name, and about the historiography of the Rus' Khaganate, all of which is fully discussed elsewhere. --dab (𒁳) 17:39, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Sorry but you're incorrect at this time. In Greek and Arabian sources the "Ros" ("Rus") people are identified with the Scythians, the Huns or the Goths, later with the Norsemen..., Also the Rus people refers to the people of Kievan Rus "people of Rus" meaning basically the ancestors of modern Russians, Ukrainians and Belarusians. Therefore suggesting that Rus' (people) means only and is strictly limited to the people of Rus' Khaganate simply isn't true.--Termer (talk) 18:12, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

If anything than Rus' (region) perhaps should be merged with something. Either with the people or the name article or most likely with Kievan Rus since the region article doesn't say anything new really and even uses the map of the Kievan Rus.--Termer (talk) 08:47, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Rus' (region) is a (good-faith) content fork, duplicating material from the more mature articles on Kievan Rus and Rus (name). The idea that the state and the historical region are two different things is not really supportable—Kievan Rus was not a country in the modern sense. The article's contents should be rolled into those two articles.

The same can be said about much of the content of Rus' (people). There's a bit too much overlap and forking for me to be comfortable with this whole set of articles. —Michael Z. 2008-11-27 01:22 z

People should always come first I think.:-) Because it's the people who give names, colonize regions, establish states etc. And therefore any history is a history of people, not a history of impersonal names or regions. So if anything, all related regional and/or name articles should be merged into this one in my opinion. Also, the article could be renamed simply to Rus'ian people, that has been both applied to the Varangians in the 9th century all the way to eastern Slavs until the16-17 centuries, instead of using ambiguous Rus' that can refer to either the people, the lands or the state.--Termer (talk) 06:13, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

The article about the ethnic group is called East Slavs. The Rus were originally a separate foreign ruling class, who sooner or later became naturalized. —Michael Z. 2008-11-27 06:38 z

Sure, that's more or less exactly what I just said, the Rus' were originally a group of Vikings/Varangians, most likely from a region that is called Roslagen in modern Sweden. However, after the Varangians assimilated, the name Rus' was applied to the Eastern Slavs until 17-18 century, until Peter the Great came up with Rossiya that is the origin of the modern name for Russia and Russians. Please see for example The Russians, Rus As Land and People By R. R. Milner-Gulland.--Termer (talk) 07:25, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

PS. Also if anybody says that the Russian scholars no longer dispute the Normanist theory by saying dated info. they no longer do, that's fine by me. just that it would still need an appropriate source claiming that there is a consensus now among Russian scholars and therefore the Anti-Normanist theory is obsolete. until that is not happened, nothing justifies sipmly removing sourced material from the article without providing any sources for reference to an alternative claim.--Termer (talk) 06:22, 27 November 2008 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 13:25, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

Indo-iranian hypothesis

О. Н. Трубачев. К истокам Руси Г.В. Вернадский —Preceding unsigned comment added by Knyf (talk • contribs) 23:06, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Maybe a solution

Is it that hard to call the Varangians and Rus a mixture of Finno-Ugric and Norse people? There's evidence to believe that Rurik was of Finno-Ugric origin, and many of the place-names and settlements have Finnic roots.

The old Proto-Slavic, Baltic and Germanic peoples all had the same root from the beginning, so I don't see why this is a big deal. CormanoSanchez (talk) 05:00, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Swedish language explains the duplicity of the roots 'Rossia' or 'Russki'.

The point is in Swedish language ,"o",/sounding like in "pot"/, is pronounced as "u",/sounding like in "put"/, in many cases. In English "o" sounds by default as "ou",but in few cases it is "u" too,in "to" for example.In Swedish good examples are words 'bor'-'boende' or 'hon'. The verb 'bor' -'to live' and corresponding noun 'Boende'-inhabitant are read like this 'bor'-sounds as buhr ,word 'hon'-'she' also sounds as hun. In Swedish there two other ways to spell out "o" ,in some cases "a" can sound as "o" and ,of course, "å" which always sounds as "o". In practice, it explains why "Ros" and "Russ" are interchangeable. For genuine Swedish speaker "o" sounds somewhere in-between "o" and "u". In some dialects it is sooner "u". Russian does not have such sounding for "o"at all, in some cases it can be heard as "a"/sounding like in 'path'/ ,but never as "u" - Russian "y". Which means Russians can not explain how it is that there're different spelling roots in names "Rossiya""Rus""Russki". While Swedish language has such feature. Another important point is that since Swedish is small language and is little known by world the info is easy neglected in favor to bigger and more known Russian,yet an objective scientist would find interesting things. The Swedish adjective's ending "ska" might be spent attention on. Here goes a quote from article Rus(name)- -**Slavic adjective "russkiy"** Well,it is not only Slavic adjective,as brief check on Swedish will show you. In Swedish you say -'pråta på Engelska'-speak English 'på Franska'-on French 'på Polska'-on Polish 'på Svenska'-on Swedish 'på Ryska'-on Russian 'på Norska'-on Norwegian

• på Danska'-on Danish

So as you see Swedish adjective ends in rather similar way.I regret to admit that Slavicist theorists in Russia never really bothered to learn some Scandinavian ,just for once for objectivity sake,instead of directly charging into patriotic minded theorizing.The truth in such cases is the first victim. ¨ 17:47, 15 January 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edelward (talk • contribs) 15:35, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Interesting hypotheses. Do you know where this is published? - 7-bubёn >t 23:31, 15 January 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. But still you walk around word construction of Indo-European Caucasian language. Every one of them is similar. Particularly when you mention ancient words. Even old-english "thou knowest" = you know is pronounced almost like modern russian "ty znaesh". I mean the construction is absolutely the same because russian is quite "orthodox" language comparing to English in the meaning of its semantics. So "aa snakke" or "aa spaake" (don't remember which is correct - I'm not that fluent in nordic) "...paa Ryska" is just similar construction of relative languages. It could play little to no part in the ethimologuy of the word "Rus". PS: The best translation of the word "Rusyi" into modern russian is not "dark blond" as mentioned here. It is closer to the color of wheat. If you've ever seen the wheat or if you remember, for example, how Anna Kournikova's hair color did look like you'll catch up with what I mean =) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.70.236.62 (talk) 23:16, 1 February 2009 (UTC) You misplace categories,alas,-it won't work. You try to prove that Indo-European words are all the same,but here I was talking about rules of pronunciation not etymology.Anywhere since Arabs had names for Medieval Eastern Slavic *Saqaliba* ,they knew the difference between Slavic and Vikings the word *Rus* they used for Scandinavians. On 'hair color' naming theory : since original Western Russia was populated by Balts,Sarmatians,Finnish(in fact the most popular hero of Russian tales Ilya Muromets was possibly from Finnish tribe Muromi) for Eastern-Slavic to call themselves 'fair-haired' would not have any meaning at all due the similarity to neighbors.With Mongolian-Turkic conquest of Russia many parts of pre-invasion Rus got new Turkic population ,Cossacks,for example,are russified Turkic people(*Turkic word,qazaq, which means "adventurer"*-quote 'Cossaks');the Turkic Qasim Khanate' in Ryazan existed only 196 km East of Moscow etc etc.The regions with remained Slavic population invested new local meaning into the old name of their original lords to differ themselves from the Tatar newcomers.But they have no reason to differentiate themselves in the 8-9th century.The name of river Ros near Kiev would be far more serious localist theory then semantics based on modern Russian.Anywhere, I believe in Swedish theory .Scandinavians have not mutated their namings.The Goths left Sweden in the 3th century BC ,yet some immigrants from Swedish Gotland moved to leave together with Crimean Goths in the 12th century AC.Ancestry,kinship,namings were well preserved in Scandinavia,so if people from Roslagen area,which has the same name till our days, embarked into foreign adventures it sooner that initially their name was the one for the new nation they've created.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Edelward (talk • contribs) 17:30, 16 February 2009 (UTC) 

The discussion about the origins of Rus is already over

The renowned archeologist, Wladyslaw Duczko, has know once and for all compiled all of todays knowledge abour the Rus people and the conclusion is clear. The Rus people are from Sweden and there more specifically, from Roden (Roslagen). This is know also acknowledged by russian archeologists, so it now time to stop loose theiries that are totally groundless and lack any support from contemparary sources. Id someone objects to the reasearch carried out by Wladyslaw Duczko, please state if you are:

• a renowned reseacher and
• present evidence with your sources. Second hand material is not accepted.

A link to Wladyslaw Duczko's book, Viking Rus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dalregementet (talk • contribs) 15:34, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

what is yourproblem? The article clearly states that Rus and Roslagen share the same etymology. --dab (𒁳) 19:22, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

• Well, yes. AFAIK the debate has been settled in practice for some time. Western historians have been near-unanimous on the Nordic origins of the Rus, and the Eastern/Russian dissenters have largely come around to that as well. I think this article needs some re-structuring though. In part to reflect this, but as it's currently written there's a bunch of redundancy and confusion. (e.g. the connection to Ruotsi is mentioned no less than four times!) The intro is too long and has some redundant/irrelevant information. I suggest making the bulk of the article handle the 'Normanist' view in a concise and uninterrupted fashion, and leave the 'alternate' theories to a section at the end. Anyone against that idea? --Pykk (talk) 17:45, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
  • While cleanup is always good, I don't see the need in the major restructuring. I remove the irrelevant piece. "Alternate theories" are already at the end: how further you way to move them? If you mean the section "Etymology", I suggest to split it into two parts and merge them into corresponding Norm and anti-Norm sections, leaving a brief summary, kind of: "the suggested etymolologies may be split into two main groups, according to two main trends: N & anti-N, see the corresponding sections". Now that we are here, the page Rus (name) begs for major cleanup: written as a poorly referenced essay rather than a decent wikipedia article. - Altenmann >t 18:42, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Ok - I support this but the two sections can´t be given the "same" status. The Normanist theory is already proven and accepted by the scholars, so the "anti normanist" theory has to be mentioned as some sort of curiosity. Dalregementet (talk) 23:35, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

this article does indeed need some cleanup. But I would ask Dalregementet (talk · contribs) to stop adding his Roslagen thing to the lead. This article is unambiguosly titled Rus' , and its scope is the medieval population known as rus' русь. Yes, it is (virtually) undisputed that the name is cognate to that of Roslagen. So what? It still isn't the article about Roslagen. --dab (𒁳) 12:27, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

I would like you to stop your tiring updates since the present people of Roslagen is the original Rus people. That is a FACT and is both historically and archeologically proven. The people in Roslagen still uses the label, so please, try to understand that people from Roslagen is Ros/Rus! Dalregementet (talk) 23:30, 7 September 2009 (UTC)

But as Dbachmann said, this article is not about the people of Roslagen. Please stop adding it to the top of the article. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:00, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

You don´t seem to understand - the Rus people in Roslagen are the original Rus people. Rurik and the Rus people emigrated from Roslagen to Holmgård according to the Primary chronicle. I would recommend you to get more familiar with Swedish and Scandinavian history before you edit anything related to that. Here is some reading by the researcher that knows most related to this topic: http://books.google.se/books?id=hEawXSP4AVwC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_v2_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Dalregementet (talk) 07:24, 8 September 2009 (UTC)

Removed piece

The following text removed from article:

Research by Brian Jones (2008) of place names within the area of settlement by Norsemen in Sweden, Norway, Denmark and Wales, suggests significant evidence of a wide geographic cultural continuum amongst the Norsemen. For example, within the periphery of north Wales, the words 'Orme' (Norse meaning Snake) as in the Great and Little Orme, and 'Rhos' (Norse possibly meaning the Rus peoples) as in Rhos-on-Sea and Rhosneigir (etc.), is indicative that the Norsemen shared a broad cultural base across the North Sea and Baltic Sea. Trade and tribal leadership networks would have supported a linguistic and cultural connection of these enclaved 'sea cove' Norse populations. The east Norsemen migrated to the east through the 'Volga/Dnieper route' which connected the Gulf of Finland with the Bysantine populations, whilst the west Norsemen looked to the North Sea - the 'Atlantic route'. Brian Jones' model of Norse dispersion indicates that both east and the west migrations are likely to have taken the form of seasonal predatorial explorations, followed by occasional permanent settlement in 'soft' areas with second generation (offspring expansion) resettlement arising from within these, rather than significant population migrations or invasions from the original homeland.

This is a summary of a work of a Brian Jones whoever he is. While the info in this piece may be useful for the current article, in this form it is unacceptable, because it is written in the out-of context form. Any added text must have primary focus on the article topic. - Altenmann >t 18:31, 1 September 2009 (UTC)

Criticism Rus = Swedes

Article has clear nationalist bias. Rus were not "Swedes". This misinformation is based on Annales Bertiniani fragment:

qi se, id est gentem suam, Rhos vocari dicebant; comperit eos gentis esse sueonum

This does not mean that the Rus = Swedes. It means that the norhtmen visiting Louis the Pious at Ingelheim were part of the nation called the Rus' (qi se, id est gentem suam, Rhos vocari dicebant] and by nationality these particular Russes were Swedes (comperit eos gentis esse sueonum].

Just like British nation consists of Welsh, Scots and English nationality. It is an fact that Welsh are indeed British, but that does not make English Welsh. Nor does it mean that British are Welsh, even Welsh indeed are part of the British nation.

Russian Primary Chronicle (Nestors Chronicle) also makes it very clear that the Rus' are separate nation from the Swedes. "Varangians were known as Rus, just as some are called Swedes, and others Nonmans, Angles, and Goths, for they were thus named ".

Infact early Rus' were collection of different (mainly) Fennoscandian tribes, having their headquarter at Aldeigjuborg located southeast shore of lake Ladoga. East Scandinavians, or Swedes, certainly were part of this nation but so were western Finns whom emigrated to shores of Ladoga about 800 AD, Vepsians were allready there back then. Even name of the trading town Aldeigjuborg (or Aldeigja), is Old Norse renderation from original Veps name of the settlement, Alodejoki.

The Rus' were not Swedes, they were Rus'. Article should be modified to more neutral pov. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.78.205.242 (talk • contribs)

Do you have scholarly references which put forth this opinion?- Altenmann >t 17:16, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Which opinion ? That the Rus' operated from Aldeigja/Staraya Ladoga ? That the Rus' were "multinational" ?

I would suggest Gwyn Jones: History of the Vikings (page 250 ->), Håkon Stang: Naming of the Russia, Wladyslaw Duczko: Viking Rus: studies on ::the presence of Scandinavians in Eastern Europe. Many of these are allready mentioned in the reference list of the article. Yet the article ::doesnt really fit the description and ideas of these modern scholars.

Also the Roslagen is not the source for the word Rus' as the article says. Vilhelm Thomsen debunked the theory allready 1876 in his Relations ::between ancient Russia and Scandinavia and yhe origins of Russian state. Roslagen is way too modern name to be considered as the source for the ::Rus'. Old Norse name for "rowers" would have been something along the line *röther. Yet here we have the famous Roslagen , in the first ::paragraph of the article. Håkan Stang in his Naming of Russia explains the origin of the word Rus' from Vepsian language *Roc briliantly. Note ::that the Aldeigja/Staraya Ladoga is right on the spot where the Vepsians used to live (and partially live even today). So the referenses are ::there but the article is like "fresh northern wind from mid-1800's". Article even starts : The Rus' (from Ukrainian: русь, [rusʲ]; also Ros, ::Rhos, from Swedish: Ros.. Huh! Swedish was not even spoken back then. It was language now known as Old Norse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.78.205.242 (talk) 20:57, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

The 3 Viking princes: Before I moved, I had a book, printed prior to WWII on Polish history, that was part of a volume of books dealing with the history of European countries. I no longer have it, but I refuse to accept that I was the ONLY American that had access to that high school library book. If you can find it, cite it, post the relevant passage, & (unlike me) can remember how to use grammar, I would appreciate it. Until then, bear with me as I try recite the passage, from a 30 year old memory (I am NO bard):

3 Viking princes came to a bend, in the Vistula river, & set up camp. The oldest, Lech, climbed the tallest nearby tree. He looked around & said, "This is where I will build my kingdom." He called it Lechistan. His descendants adopted the Latin name for the previously indigenous people, Poles, when they converted to Catholicism. The middle brother, Czech, conquered the Bohemian gypsies to the west & establish what is now know as The Czech Republic. The youngest, Rus made a fort on the river north of Kiev.

I also find it disconcerting the even I mild historian would come up with a statement like: the highly civilized & wealthy Slavic Kievs, being the major trade center for half of Europe for hundreds of years, would NEVER hire seasoned Viking raiders to be there King. Ignoring a thousand years of wealthy Romans hiring barbarians to fight their battles for them. ** Hyperbole paraphrasing to drive the point.

Ignorant

Rus were Swedes and they still are since the people in Uppland are called "Rospiggar". In the Swedish province of Dalarna, the males are called "Dalmasar".

Wladyslaw Duczko has in his book "Viking Rus" clearly proved that the Rus people came from Sweden - and that from varoius sources, sources in central Europe, Kiev, Constantinopel and the Caliphate. The evidence are pointing in one direction only - Sweden. This is also supported with "tons" of evidence in the form of archeological findings - findings that hasn´t been properly examined until the fall of the Soviet Union. Really funny that you refer to Vilhelm Thomsen 1876... The question is: Do you have any credentials whatsoever in order to have some weight in matters regarding old Norse, archeology and history? I don´t think so.

Sweden is named Ruotsi by the Finns, the Estonians and the Sami in all times. Just grasp that!

"Infact early Rus' were collection of different (mainly) Fennoscandian tribes, having their headquarter at Aldeigjuborg" - A big joke not supported by archeological finds.

The Rus' were Swedes - Wladyslaw Duczko has lots of sources to back this up - sources whom many were not known 1876. even spoken back then. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dalregementet (talk • contribs) 15:34, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

Nope. Swedes didn't exist in time of Rus'. Better luck next time.--93.87.103.157 (talk) 08:59, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Need for a serious editing

This article is, as far as I (not a speaker of Russian) can tell, largely a copy of the article in ru.wikipedia.org, including broken links to Russian-language websites. I think this has the potential to be a valuable article for en.wikipedia.org, but it needs work, perhaps from a native English speaker with a good command of Russian. (BTW, despite my "Viking" handle, I haven't got a drop of Nordic blood, as far as I know.) Bloody Viking (talk) 17:46, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:52, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

Rus' people → Rus (people)

• In the sources they are referred to as simply the Rus. Given that the name can also refer to related peoples and regions etc, it would look better to have it this way. Encyclopedia Britannica uses this version. Alphasinus (talk) 01:43, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
• The disputed end apostrophe represents the soft sign at the end of the Cyrillic spelling Русь. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 16:20, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose. Better avoid naming with brackets if we can. GreyHood ^Talk 18:01, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.