Talk:Secondary modern school

Merger Request

I agree emphatically, there is no need for this article and another with a different capatilisation. Davidkinnen 18:06, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Agreed. Go ahead and merge. Shropshire Lad 19:20, 29 August 2005 (UTC)

Article Replacement

Previous debates on old article removed.

My apologies to anyone who feels I have overstepped my mark by replacing the old article. I felt that it made sense in the light of the widespread changes currently being introduced on the Tripartite System as a whole. I would take no offense if anyone were to take sections of previous editions and reintroduce them- I have only implemented a full change to ensure the text scans, and have done my best to include all information mentioned before. --Evil Capitalist 21:21, 27 September 2005 (UTC)

A few corrections I will make later - as there are still Secondary Modern schools today - in those LEA's that still have the 11+ and selective education. Davidkinnen 07:28, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

I didn't think they still went by the same name- there are about 250 schools that the government classifies as 'Secondary Modern', but I couldn't find evidence of a single one that still actually went by that name. As such, I thought the last paragraph covered modern usage. Looking at it, however, I can see that it could do with being in a good deal more detail. --Evil Capitalist 09:11, 28 September 2005 (UTC)

Certificate of Secondary Education

This article says that secondary moderns prepared their students for the CSE, but the Certificate of Secondary Education article says it was introduced in 1965, so it was presumably only used in the final years. Kanguole (talk) 13:12, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand. CSE were prepared as exams that could be taken at Secondary Modern Schools, but only one grade was equivalent to an O level. They were phased out when it was accepted just how unfair this comparison was. Many local authorities prevaricated in implementing Circular 11/66 and 10/68, in Kent and Medway, 75% of all non Catholic children still go to secondary modern school. The government choice agenda means it is legally impossible to rectify this, as Lord Adonis has found to his cost. So it is only correct to say that CSE were taken, for a brief period 23 year period in the life of a Kent Secondary Modern school- finishing 20 years ago with the introduction of the GCSE.

Medway has one streamed Comprehensive school, one heavily streamed Catholic comprehensive, one bi-lateral school, 10 secondary moderns, 5 selective state schools and two private schools.

ClemRutter (talk) 18:54, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, they were used for a considerable time in the areas that resisted, but the sentence in question seems to be describing typical secondary moderns in the heyday of the tripartite system. So it is misleading. Kanguole (talk) 10:28, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

And of course CSE's were taught and examined in grammar schools. I attended Calday Grange Grammar School (which still exists and is still a grammar school) 1979-1986 and a significant proportion of pupils took at least one CSE. Even in my class (top stream, top sets) some pupils took CSE's in subject they found very taxing. Contrariwise, when I did teaching practice in a secondary modern in Wirral (which still exists) the 6th form was small but there were certainly a reasonable number of children taking A-levels, so many of these remarks may reflect much older history but are no contemporary. When I was teaching secondary moderns in wirral tended to perform very well on educational league tables and there was no evidence that I could see of their being poorly resourced (which tended to be a political/sub-district phenomenon). Whether or not its a "good thing" (and who knows) the article doesn't perhaps tell the whole story. Francis Davey (talk) 00:01, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

In fact I have a CSE(i) in French as well as an A grade at O-level because we were trialing the 16+ examination 8-). Francis Davey (talk) 00:02, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

I've just highlighted (in the topic below) that maybe this article would benefit from being reorganised into the different periods in the history of secondary moderns which would help retain the historical accuracy but not make statements which are false in regard to the different eras. So there could be a subheading covering their launch and initial intentions, a second subheading covering their development as the new qualifications were introduced (O-levels, CSEs, etc) and the influence of the transition to the comprehensive system and finally a subheading covering the situation of secondary moderns today. Marlarkey (talk) 20:22, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Biased article

This article is very biased and gives a false view of secondary moderns. They were simply mainstream schools. The idea that they were some sort of Dickensian nightmare given here, is just a modern (mainly leftwing) delusion.

FOR EXAMPLE: "Those who were thought unsuitable for either an academic curriculum or a technical one, were to be sent to the secondary modern, where they would receive training in simple, practical skills. Education here was to focus on training in basic subjects such as arithmetic, mechanical skills such as woodworking and domestic skills, such as cookery."

This is nonsense. They were just mainstream schools. Children studied for their 'O' and 'A' levels like everywhere else.

"In an age before the advent of the National Curriculum, the specific subjects taught were chosen by the individual school. " That's misleading. There was a normal standard education/curriculum for all state schools in Britain. 212.219.249.5 (talk) 18:04, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Disagree. Your comments don't reflect the situation in 1944 when secondary moderns were set up and up to the 1960s. In 1944 secondary moderns were the alternative to grammar schools. Grammar schools were for the academically inclined and secondary moderns were for the rest, see Education Act 1944. On the QCA's own web site (http://www.qcda.gov.uk/6210.aspx) they describe how O-levels were introduced in 1951 but were taken by only about 20% of pupils, mostly at grammar and independent schools and in secondary modern schools "the opportunity to take public examinations was rarely available. In the '50s and early 60s', most young people therefore left school with no formal qualifications." So before the 1960s secondary moderns were the mainstream schools that most pupils attended but they did NOT gain qualifications "like everyone else".

Therefore the description of secondary moderns given in the opening paragraphs is an accurate description of the historical perspective of what secondary moderns were set up to be. The article should not lose that historical accuracy.

However the situation from 1960s to today is different. During the 1960s CSEs were launched and they were studied and gained by pupils at secondary moderns but also more and more areas abolished secondary moderns and launched comprehensive schools. As we getting nearer to today we find that secondary moderns have become more and more like comprehensive school ("mainstream" ?) in terms of the opportunities they seek to offer to their pupils.

So what could be helpful in this article is to reorganise it into three subtopics - the first covering their launch, the second covering their historical development and third covering secondary moderns today. Marlarkey (talk) 20:18, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I was initially tempted to dismiss this intervention as politic rhetoric, but looking at the article it is in sore need of references and it is understandable that a a general reader may be frustrated at not being to verify this concise accurate statement about the Tripartite system. Life in a secondary modern school. by John Partridge. Published in 1968, Penguin (Harmondsworth) is a text that needs to be studied as it is referred to in all subsequent papers.

The current article, unlike the Tripartite System, is not separated into sections. That must be done, but the ones suggested above are not the way to go. No mention is made in the article of RoSLA. No mention is made of the childs experience, the architecture of the buildings the restricted curriculum, there are no statistics or demographics anywhere in the article. No mention of the financial restraints preventing authorities from reorganising and no acknowledgement of superior teaching skills and reduced esteem given to teachers who worked in these schools. Yes a lot needs to be done.

Previous editors have often suppressed their professional judgement and deeply held convictions to ensure that the article could not be considered biased. So lets improve the article in the ways I have indicated- but by using corrected referenced text not some tosh overheard at in a wine bar. --ClemRutter (talk) 23:47, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Actually that is a good point. This article could be transformed into a more analytical piece outlining each of the different aspects mentioned as well as describing the historical emergence and development of this type of school. And it could include a section on the controversies relating to secondary moderns like many articles covering contentious topics do. Marlarkey (talk) 14:27, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

There are a lot of points here- this article is really tied to Tripartite system and there already is a heavily tagged article on the politics of selection. All these articles need a lot of time spent on them, a good overview is given in [1] where many source documents can be found in full for instance Hadlow reports. While trawling for the correct infobox to use- I kept scanning many education related articles -each had days of copy editing to do. For instance Gymnasium does not use students ages but Americanisms such as Grade School, K-13, Freshman (I presume that is distinct from one that has been deep frozen, and microwaved before serving). The Grammar School article does not mention Maths Schools- and seems to be slanted towards a Headmaster Conference angle. If you wish to tackle a subject of such complexity, I suggest you start by looking at the articles I have mentioned and check their references for veracity. If the Tripartite system is beefed up, I think that this article will become do-able, Then as best practice draft up a new version in your sandbox and invite comment there.--ClemRutter (talk) 16:05, 12 March 2010 (UTC)

It's perhaps a large topic. But still, I went to one in 1969 and, as I say, anyone from that era will be shocked at the false picture painted of the subject - and that's not encyclopedic. People on University Challenge haven't a clue sometimes about things that were standard first year knowledge in my day. And that point applies to society in general. I went later to a supposedly superior posh school and academically and in every way it was inferior to the sec. mod. We studied Vaughan Williams's works in first year just as one example.

Sec. mods. were just mainstream schools and people definitely did go there to work towards their ')'and 'A' levels, the same as anywhere else. They were mainstream education with grammars for the posh kids. I re-iterate my point about the curricula too. The article shouldn't push the standard Blair, leftwing anti-the people view that is the establishment view today. It should be non-POV. 212.219.249.5 (talk) 19:24, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

1969 was fairly late on in the history of secondary moderns. By then they were very different from what they were like in 1944. Marlarkey (talk) 20:56, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

I think we should leave it at that. All that needs to said has been said.--ClemRutter (talk) 01:11, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

Answering malarky: Can you tell me when they finished then. How long must something last before it should be excluded from a wkip article? Pennypennypennypenny (talk) 20:12, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Don't understand what you're getting at ? When they finished what ? As pointed out earlier there are various ways of looking at the subject of secondary moderns which could be covered in this article. One should not get a description of the historical origins of secondary moderns mixed up with a description of secondary moderns today. Especially if this article is going to maintain non-POV. Someone referred to what secondary moderns were like in 1969, what I was pointing out was that what they were like in 1969 was totally different from what they were like in 1944. Marlarkey (talk) 22:06, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Answering clemrutter: Do u mean the discussion or the article is finished? It says above "This article is related to WikiProject Schools, an attempt to write quality articles about schools around the world. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page.

Start      This article has been rated as Start-Class on the project's quality scale.
Mid     This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale.

This article has been marked as needing an infobox." so somebody else including me must not think no more can be added. Pennypennypennypenny (talk) 20:10, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

To clarify- I was suggesting we close the debate with the ip-user, as it is not going to reach a conclusion. Assuming a television trivia show is more than a little fun, and bringing in the names of politicians, who incidently were educated privately- is deflecting the issue. Close that debate.

• In 1972, colleges of Education ran courses titled 'Systems of Education' which prepared trainee teachers for the rolling change known as comprehensivisation that was already being rolled out on certain counties- I think Cambridgeshire was one of the first. The age of secondary school transfer was also being debated, with colleges traning up Middle School teachers among others- the Cert Ed, qualification was being deprecated as it was assumed that this would be inadequate to teach exam classes (Ó level) rather than CSE. Certain schools were already gearing up their Secondary Modern schools to make a seamless transfer and advertising posts- stating sixth form work would soon be available for suitable qualified candidates and taking students. This was a time of transition.

I am not against giving the article a good shaking- and have proposed that someone set it (or them) up in a sandbox. Tasks

• Set up a new article in a sandbox.
• Write a new Infobox Education systems.I can't find a suitable infobox for articles that are about a system of Education rather than a specific school.
• Read thoroughly the references this and all the others I have mentioned above
• Search for more statistics etc.
• Draft a structure

One further question was raised above. When did the last secondary modern school finish? The haven't. They still exist in Kent, Medway, Lincolnshire and I believe Cheshire where they are euphemistically called High Schools staffed by teachers of the highest quality who are castigated for not achieving identical results to school having the full ability intake.

And they still exist in Buckinghamshire where they are known as community schools. Marlarkey (talk) 14:15, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

I disagree about the castigation. Certainly in Wirral that was not the case. As I said before, secondary moderns performed pretty well in league tables. When I taught at one I was impressed at how highly the students performed and I think that was a general view. In the year before I started there, some secondary moderns outperformed some with the full ability intake, so they are not going to be castigated for failing to do so 8-). Obviously things change. There were times when the 11+ separated out a small proportion to attend grammar school, whereas at other times much higher proportions attended (in my school cohort it was 40% attending grammar school). The split point when I was starting to teach was around IQ 107.5 (iirc). I fully support any attempt to make this article reflect different periods in the development of the tripartite system. Francis Davey (talk) 14:16, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I am away from my reference books until Wednesday.

--ClemRutter (talk) 12:42, 20 March 2010 (UTC)

Biased article 2

(The above is now very long to read on a screen - and so I'm starting this subsection for any further discussion of this point.)

I've just re-read the article and I still say the same. Someone coming to it with no knowledge - say a kid at school researching this matter - will get a wholly false view of Sec. Mod. schools. And anyone who attended them - at least in later years - will be offended by the false Dickensian depiction of them. Pennypennypennypenny (talk) 19:24, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

While I am not opposed to the article reflecting the way secondary modern schools have evolved and the educational opportunities they have provided in more recent years, I feel it is vital that it does not lose sight of the situation as it was when the majority of the population passed through them. I left a secondary modern in 1969 with CSEs though, even then, the 5th year in which CSEs were taken was optional and the majority of my contemporaries left in mid 1968 (at the end of the 4th form) having had no opportunity to sit for qualifications of any sort. I believe only two of us went on to university (via 'O' and 'A' levels taken at a technical college). I eventually gained a PhD and a university lectureship so the system as a whole did not fail me. However, I am convinced that a number of my contemporaries - my intellectual equals or better - were educationally short-changed. Perhaps I can also throw some light on the degree to which the curriculum was locally decided: all boys at our SM were taught navigation, hardly a likely choice for a nationally chosen curriculum but entirely appropriate for a school, like ours, located in a fishing village.--ColinSMill (talk) 10:39, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

25% go to grammar school??

I had neard that the percentage of kids who went to grammar school was not fixed nationally but varied with local authority. 25% seems very high to me - I thought it was more like 10% in many places. 92.24.181.78 (talk) 14:01, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

Correct the lead paragraph is very poorly written. For instance it uses the past tense while they are very much a reality in swathes of GB. If the lead were written better it would say that they were intended to cater for XX% but Local Authorities had the final discretion in those days. Before I would make any correction to this page, I would need to be surrounded by notable sources as each comma will be challenged.--ClemRutter (talk) 16:21, 11 January 2011 (UTC)

There seems to be hardly any analytic content either in the article or the discussion page - this includes ignoring a flexibility of policy and practice.

There is research to suggest that when the pass rate for 11-Plus exceeded the places available in local grammar schools the pass mark was re-adjusted to a higher level in order to make sure a more manageable size was deemed to have passed the exam. Secondly, my secondary modern school offered 'O' Levels after which some pupils went on to a comprehensive school 6th form or FE college for their 'A' Level studies.There were many examples of 13-Plus also being offered to some students because either they were adjudged to be more suited for grammar schooling or it was felt that their 11-Plus performance must have been an off day for them. So please be a little more critical in your approach to the topic in hand.

I agree. Wirral's criteria (when I studied and taught there) was based on a particular point on the IQ/reading test scale which was varied on several occasions. In the late 90's (I thin) it was about 1 standard deviation. When I attended school a larger proportion were admitted to grammar schools for some reason, so my year was unusually big. Something like 1/3 attending a grammar school would not have been unusual at all at some periods of time in Wirral. Similarly pupils were moved between schools where they were found not to fit in; many pupils moved from one of our secondary moderns to our grammar school 6th form to study for A-levels and attend university. Nor, as I have said earlier, was the taking of exams or any other activity particularly stereotyped. In my O-level chemistry class we had students getting A grades but at least one taking a CSE because he struggled with O-level. Etc. Francis Davey (talk) 08:59, 24 April 2011 (UTC)

Dividing the topic chronologically

I strongly believe that, as has been suggested above, the article needs to be divided chronologically if it is to describe the secondary modern school over its entire existence (i.e. 1944 to the present day) This would allow many of the issues that are currently contentious to be resolved. There are a number of statements with highly time-dependent validity- for example "Secondary moderns prepared students for the CSE examination ..." which is untrue prior to the introduction of the CSE in 1965, partly true between 1965 and 1972 while the 5th year in which the CSE was examined remained optional, and true from 1973 until the CSE gave way to the GCSE in 1988.

The article does not even mention the significant dates in this sort of progression or give any statistics relating to them. For example, the proportion of secondary modern leavers with some sort of qualification was almost zero in 1944. By 1970 (when approximately 56% of all school leavers had some qualification) somewhat over 40% of secondary modern levers must have obtained some qualification. Given that only about 1% of today's school leavers are unqualified the qualification rate in secondary moderns probably continued to rise. In its current form it would be difficult to incorporate this sort of information without casting each statement with time-line related caveats and rendering the thing almost unreadable.

As an aside, there seem to have been a number of euphemisms used for secondary mods. even in their hay-day. Mine, for example was a "county secondary" and became a "community college". I'm sure this adds to the difficulty of properly allocating schools to this category.--ColinSMill (talk) 16:06, 30 September 2011 (UTC)