Talk:Shtokavian dialect

Burgenland Austrian

Is not based on stokavian, but on chakavian. Better somenone fix that.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.178.138.137 (talk) 01:34, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Standard Serbian

As discussed with VVladimir [1], according to Novi Sad Agreement [2] Standard serbian is based on Vojvodina-Šumadija accent which is part of eastern Shtokavian group. Standard Serbian language was never based on Eastern Herzegovian dialect (Croato Serbian was). There exist none western NeoShtokavian Ekavian accent. All western neoShtokavian are eather ijekavian,jekavian or ikavian and all eastern neoShtokavian are ekavian (which is clearly visible from the text). So please correct this. Čeha (razgovor) 22:59, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

There is no such thing as "Ekavian accent". Ekavian refers to jat reflex, nothing more. "Accent" in linguistics refers to accentual system, in case of Neo-Štokavian dialects to the 4 accents/tones system with post-tonic lengths, as opposed to some other accentual system (of 2, 3 or 5 accents, with or without distinctive lengths). See Pitch_accent#Serbo-Croatian for more specific info. Original "Serbian language" was of course based on Eastern Herzegovinian accentuation (of which Karadžić was a native speaker, so he basically codified his mother tongue), as is the modern Serbian. Some accents have changed from the 19th century, but it's still pretty much the same thing. You can compare accents in his original 1818 dictionary [3] with that of in any modern Serbian dictionary (or Ijekavian Croatian for that matter - it's all the same s*it).

Šumadija-Vojvodina dialects have a number of prosodical (accentual) differences to EH, despite being Neo-Štokavian. Modern literary Serbian is EH in its accentual core, though I can guess that Šumadija-Vojvodina dialects have made some isolated impacts. One also needs to make a difference between a codified norm and actual, local speech, because these can vary on the whole Serbo-Croat area. Even in Croatia urban idioms of big cities such as Zagreb and Rijeka are not pure 4-accentual with distinctive lengths, but rather stress-based without distinctive lengths (according to survey by M. Kapović). --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 13:36, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

There are a two meanings of the word "accent" in English: local pronunciation (such as ekavian and ijekavian) and tone/prosody/stress, as in the SC pitch accent system. We just need to be clear which we mean when we say "accent". — kwami (talk) 22:56, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

Relationship towards neighboring dialects

I tagged s.t. for clarification. The original wording suggested that Kajkavian shares kaj w Shtokavian, and an alternate reading suggests it shares it w Chakavian. We need to clarify what exactly is being distinguished: Do the various features distinguish all three dialects? Or do they distinguish Kajkavian vs. Shtokavian + Chakavian in the one case, and Chakavian vs. Shtokavian + Kajkavian in the other? — kwami (talk) 22:56, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

They distinguish Shtokavian vs. Chakavian, and Shtokavian vs. Čakavian. This is an article on Shtokavian dialect, so only its point of reference is used. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 10:16, 1 May 2011 (UTC)

Neo-Shtokavian??

This article does not explain clearly the rationale behind the sorting of Shtokavian dialects into Old- and Neo-Shtokavian categories. There doesn't seem to be a geographical or historical origin to this distinction explained. As someone who studied Shtokavian in college, I have to say I couldn't tell you what the difference is. If someone with expertise could put this crucial information in the intro paragraph, that would be great. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.134.173.81 (talk) 07:50, 30 September 2011 (UTC)

Wouldn't that be the neo-štokavian retraction/shift, where all non-initial accents went back one syllable and became "rising" and where all initial accents stayed where they were and became "falling"? 68.4.243.145 (talk) 09:06, 11 November 2011 (UTC)