Talk:Skanderbeg

Editors who are interested in improving this article are encouraged to read this talk page discussion and the previous discussion at the Talk:Skanderbeg/Archive 1.

"Albanian lord" or "lord of Albania" ?

If you are contemplating a Good Article status, you have to start from the very first lines. 1) What is the meaning "George ... or Gjergj..."? Does it mean that Sk. is found in the bibliography either as George or as Gjergj with no other choices? Or does it mean that he was calling himself "George" or "Gjergj"? Sources pleas. Note D contrasts the linked line because it says "lord of Albania". The various names in the main sources are displayed in the relevant section.

2) What is the meaning of "Albanian lord"? Albanian in ethnicity or what? In the article about his mother it is clear that her nationality is uncertain (if we take seriously the pro-Albanian sources) or Slave if we rely on the modern academic sources. Now, let's take the pro-Albanian scenario that his father was Albanian and his mother of unscertain nationality. On what rule the child takes the "Albanian" from the father and not the "uncertain" from the mother? I suppose that WP conforms to the UN resolution of the womens' rights and does not adopt the ottoman rules.
But the article has to reflect all the possible scenarios and not the pro-Albanian one. So, according to many sources neither his father nor his mother were Albanians. Therefore, the "Albanian lord" violates the WP rules and we must seek a better phrasing. --Euzen (talk) 13:18, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Please read WP:NOTFORUM and the archives of the page.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 14:00, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree with you Euzen that term "Albanian lord" violates the WP rules and we should seek a better phrasing. There so many of such POV phrases that maybe the best way to deal with them is to make list and to deal with all of them at once. --Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:47, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

George Skanderbeg

Users has quite right and is very well known, that George isn't only a Greek masculine given name, but a name/world of Greek language origin (talking about the obvious) !

• George (given name)
• Georgios
• Giorgos

see also categories Given names of Greek language origin Greek masculine given names  !!! --194.219.51.216 (talk) 18:46, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

You forgot to log in. Next time you say that you are not from Greece, log yourself in so that you won't give away your location.--Gaius Claudius Nero (talk) 20:09, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Bsically what the one above me said [1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.112.213.78 (talk) 21:23, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

How many children Skanderbeg and his wife had?

The text of the article says Their children included Gjon Kastrioti II.

If there were other children, then that information should be presented to the readers. If not, then above mentioned sentence should be changed to: They had one child, Gjon Kastrioti II.

Any comment?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 14:15, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Do we have any official document calling him "Gjon"? If not, let's stick to english, or we mention also the names found in original bibligraphy (Giovanni etc). Btw, his grandpa was not called "Gjon" but "Ivan" (Laonikos Chlalkokondyles). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Euzen (talk • contribs) 10:53, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Who was whose vassal?

The text of the article says:

• Following Skanderbeg's requests, King Alfonso V helped him in this situation and the two parties signed the Treaty of Gaeta on March 26, 1451, according to which, Skanderbeg would be formally a vassal of Alfonso in exchange for military aid. More explicitly, Skanderbeg recognized King Alfonso's sovereignty over his lands in exchange for the help that King Alfonso would give to him in the war against the Ottomans. King Alfonso pledged to respect the old privileges of Krujë and Albanian territories and to pay Skanderbeg an annual 1,500 ducats, while Skanderbeg pledged to make his fealty to King Alfonso only after the full expulsion of the Ottomans from the country, a condition never reached in Skanderbeg's lifetime.

I think that this text can mislead readers to believe that this treaty was something only very positive for Skanderbeg who gave nothing (only formal vassalage and vague promise of future fealty) in exchange for money and military aid, like Alfonso became Skanderbeg's vassal.

Sources and real events present different story which includes a negative side of Skanderbeg's cooperation with Naples because this cooperation:

• influenced on Skanderbeg to start a war against Venice
• "made his forces party to the war against the Republic of San Marco" and forced him to fight on two fronts, against the Ottomans and against the Signoria making Skanderbeg's realm no more than a link in a broadly spanned chain of Neapolitan vassals against which Venice had spun a net of regional princes in its pay making Balkans the theatre of inner-Italian warfare to which Scanderbeg would eventually fall victim and perish being finally defeated by local Ottoman commanders who were talented figures, equal in every respect to Scanderbeg.

It is very important to follow WP:NPOV and to add information about the negative consequences of Skanderbeg's cooperation with Naples.

Therefore I propose to add to the article one sentence which I believe would summarize negative consequences of Skanderbeg's cooperation with Naples:

• Skanderbeg's cooperation with the Kingdom of Naples made Skanderbeg an enemy of Republic of Venice and included Skanderbeg's realm into inner-Italian warfare significantly contributing to his final defeat.

Sources:

• Donald Nicol (1993), The Last Centuries of Byzantium, 1261–1453, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 978-0521439916, http://books.google.com/books?id=y2d6OHLqwEsC, "Skanderbeg of Albania, who was ready to join Hunyadi of Hungary on his crusade, was seduced by Alfonso into making war on Venice." 
• Skanderbeg. Der neue Alexander auf dem Balkan, Oliver Jens Schmitt

If nobody objects I will add above mentioned sentence to the article?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 16:21, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Background of the "worsening of relations" between Venice and Skanderbeg

The text of the article explains the background of the Albanian–Venetian War (1447–1448) with following sentence:

• The later affirmation of Skanderbeg and his rise as a strong force on their borders, however, was seen as a menace to the interests of the Republic, leading to a worsening of relations and the dispute over the fortress of Dagnum which triggered the Albanian-Venetian War of 1447–1448.

This text can mislead readers about the real background of this war which had nothing to do with Venice's view about Skanderbeg's affirmation or Venice's perception of Skanderbeg's strong force. The real background of the Albanian–Venetian War is obvious from the sources and real events which present completely different story:

1. During a conflict between members of the League of Lezha (who were never really united) Nikola Dukagjin killed Leke Zakaria, the lord of realm with towns Dagnum, Sati, Gladri and Dušmani.
2. Zakaria's mother and local population of Zakaria's realm preferred Venice to any of the local chieftains members of the League of Lezha because of their hostility toward the League of Lezha
3. therefore they supported Venetian troops who put under their control Dagnum and rest of the Zakaria's possessions (Sati, Gladri and Dušmani)
4. when Venice refused Skanderbeg's demand to give him control over all above towns plus Drivast,
5. Skanderbeg was seduced by the Kingdom of Naples to start the war against Venice
6. without being supported by all local lords from the Northern Albania.

Sources (besides mentioned in above section):

• Božić, Ivan (1979) (in Serbian), Nemirno pomorje XV veka, Beograd: Srpska književna zadruga, p. 364, OCLC 5845972, http://books.google.rs/books?ei=6JwVT5y6DYT04QSfpdjMAw&id=SnkBAAAAMAAJ&dq=%22%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%99%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE+%D1%98%D0%B5+%D1%81%D0%B2%D0%B5+%D1%88%D1%82%D0%BE+%D1%81%D0%B5+%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%BE+%D1%83+%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%98+%D0%BA%D1%83%D1%9B%D0%B8%2C+%D1%83%D1%81%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BF%D1%99%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE+%D0%B8%D0%BC+%D1%98%D0%B5+%D1%83+%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%98%D1%83%2C+%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8+%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B6%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%9A%D0%B0%22&q=%22%D0%9E%D0%BD%D0%B8+%D1%81%D1%83+%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%B5-+%D1%9B%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%B8+%D0%B4%D0%B0+%D1%9B%D0%B5+%D0%B2%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%BD%D0%BE+%D1%81%D0%BB%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B8+%D0%A0%D0%B5%D0%BF%D1%83%D0%B1%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B8.+%D0%A7%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B0+%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B4%D0%B8-+%D1%86%D0%B5+%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%B5+%D0%97%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%98%D0%B5+%E2%80%94+%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%98%D1%86%D0%B8+%D0%91%D0%BE%D1%88%D0%B8%2C+%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8+%D0%91%D0%BE%D1%99%D0%B8+%D0%B8+%D1%9A%D0%B5%D0%B3%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D0%BC+%D1%81%D0%B5%D1%81%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B8%D1%9B%D1%83+%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%98%D0%B8+%E2%80%94+%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%B2%D1%99%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE+%D1%98%D0%B5+%D1%81%D0%B2%D0%B5+%D1%88%D1%82%D0%BE+%D1%81%D0%B5+%D0%B7%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%BB%D0%BE+%D1%83+%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%98+%D0%BA%D1%83%D1%9B%D0%B8%2C+%D1%83%D1%81%D1%82%D1%83%D0%BF%D1%99%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE+%D0%B8%D0%BC+%D1%98%D0%B5+%D1%83+%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%98%D1%83%2C+%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B4%D0%B8+%D0%B8%D0%B7%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%B6%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B0%D1%9A%D0%B0%2C%22#search_anchor, "Члановима породице Леке Закарије — мајци Боши, сестри Бољи и његовом сестрићу Који... pp. 364: "Никола Дукађин убио је Леку Закарију. Према млетачком хроничару Стефану Мању убио га је "у битки" као његов вазал."" 
• Van Antwerp Fine, John (1987), The Late Medieval Balkans: A Critical Survey from the Late Twelfth Century, University of Michigan Press, p. 557, ISBN 9780472100798, http://books.google.rs/books?id=LvVbRrH1QBgC&pg=PA557&dq=leke+dukagjin+1448&hl=en&sa=X&ei=sH8YT5j7H-Pa4QTpgripDA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=leke%20dukagjin%201448&f=false, "..., Nicholas Dukagjin killed Lek Zakaria, the Albanian lord of Danj. Venice quickly sent a force into Danj and received support of Lek's mother and local populace, who preferred Venice to any of local Albanians who all supported Skanderbeg's league... The town's hostility toward Albanian league... Venice also took Zakarija's other towns of Sati, Gladri and Dušmani,... Skanderbeg demanded that Venice restore to him those towns and also Drivast....Dukagjini chiefs. A few members of this family, particulary some residing in Skadar, remained loyal to Venice." 

I propose to replace the above mentioned misleading sentence with another one which would summarize the real background of the Albanian–Venetian War:

• Population of the realm of Lekë Zaharia was hostile toward the League of Lezha and supported the Venetian troops to capture towns of Zakaria's realm (Dagnum, Sati, Gladri and Dušmani) when Zakaria was killed in the battle with another member of League (from Dukagjini family). Venetian refusal to accept Skanderbeg's demands for control over the towns of former Zakaria's realm justified Skanderbeg's war against Venice started under influence of the Kingdom of Naples.

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 23:25, 19 January 2012 (UTC)

Please read WP:SYNTH (i.e deductions that don't exist in the sources).--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 00:21, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Can you point to deduction which doesn't exist in the sources?--Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:26, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

under influence etc. i.e being involved in a war for the promotion of what you consider beneficial for your realm can't be summarized in the misleading under influence nor can that phrase be deduced from the existing sources.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 00:40, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Now I understand the problem. You did not notice that I also referred to sources "mentioned in above section" and I did not provide the quote from Schmitt's work:

• Donald Nicol (1993), The Last Centuries of Byzantium, 1261–1453, Cambridge University Press, ISBN 978-0521439916, http://books.google.com/books?id=y2d6OHLqwEsC, "Skanderbeg ... was seduced by Alfonso into making war on Venice." 
• His hostility towards Venice, influenced at least by Naples, Skanderbeg: ein Aufstand und sein Anführer - Oliver Jens Schmitt

Any other deduction which doesn't exist in the sources? --Antidiskriminator (talk) 00:58, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

While Nicol can use terms like seduced in that manner, we can't use them(WP:WORDS etc.). Btw why are you quoting Schmitt's references to events that happened after the 1447-8 war?--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 01:16, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I did not use Nicol's term seduced in the proposed sentence. I used term influenced.

Schmitt referred to Skanderbeg's hostility toward Venice, not to any event that happened after 1447-8 war.

Here is what Schmitt also says about Skanderbeg's aliance and this war with Venice: The alliance of nobles used up most of its energy in feuds with Venice and the towns of northern Albania, wars that it waged in conjunction with the Serb despot and the leader of Montenegro on behalf of the Kingdom of Naples.

Here is a source written by Stavro Skendi who confirms that "The relations between the Albanian hero and the Aragonian-Neapolitan King seem to have started in 1447"

--Antidiskriminator (talk) 01:45, 20 January 2012 (UTC)